Training Courses Recomended schools (certified)

[paramil]

Question for the members here that have been through schools. What schools would you recomend?

What I am looking for in a school would be advanced marksmanship skills and fieldcraft. I have already been through a few smaller long range schools however need more of the field/advanced techniques.

What I mean by certified is that I would like to attend a course that certifies you within that state (maybe LE) to work as a marksman/sniper.
Example: GPS warfighter course certifies you as a sniper in the state of Arizona.

Note: Not leaning toward GPS defense school but just wanted to use it as an example.

What would you all recommend? What are my options?

Please, no join the service, go through the school in Quantico, Lejeune, or Pendleton remarks. Looking at civilian schools.

Thanks in advance.

 

[bogeybrown]

It sounds as though you've found one of the good ones already. They've been around for long time, as the HS Precision School, the McMillan School, and now as their own entitiy. The guys I know that have been said it was worth attenting, and it's on my list at some point.

I promise I'm not busting your balls, but if you're not LE or Mil, why is the "certification" important to you? Unless maybe for a Contracting resume?

 

[paramil]

bogeybrown:

Thanks, will keep that in mind.

-Break-

Bump back up to top if anyone has any schools they would also like to recomend.

 

[Hairball]

The GPS course that you describe is only available to DoD and DoS with valid mil/LE ID. If you search the training forums you may find a number of local classes in your area but none of them are going to give you a MIL/LE cert if you are not already employed by any agency. I have seen a few advanced classes being offered in the traing section but I am not sure how willing you may be in traveling. As previously described, you can take a number of classes to pad a job app. As the civilian world does not have to maintain a set certification for civilians, certs at this level do not really account for much as there is no national standard to maintain in order to get this "certification" for non MIL/LE type of personnel.

 

[kraigWY]

Call your state LE POST council and ask them what schools they would recognize.

If you find one that suits you that's not on their list, then have the school petition the Council to have their class certified. Its not that hard to do, The school or individual sends their qualifications (resume) and a copy of their lesson plan to the Council and they will decide.

 

[Graham]

What I mean by certified is that I would like to attend a course that certifies you within that state (maybe LE) to work as a marksman/sniper... Looking at civilian schools.

No civilian school certifies you within a state to work as a marksman/sniper.

'Certified' means trained, qualified, and operationally current. Even in law enforcement what you are looking for is dependent on who you know.

 

[kraigWY]

No civilian school certifies you within a state to work as a marksman/sniper

Not sure I agree with that statement.

Most states, if not all, have POST or Police Officer Standards. Or as in Alaska its called Alaska Police Standards Council.

For liability purposes, most departments (if not all) require their officers to adhere to those standards.

To be POST certified you have to have training that has been approved by the standard council. There is no law says that training can't be provided by civilians. In fact many departments have non-sword firearms (as well as other subjects) do the training.

A good example is my CSI instructor training. We had a civilian pathologist do a great bit of the training. He certainly wasn't a sworn officer.

Certification (to meat POST standards) needs the instructor to be certified by the Police Standards Council (or POST, what ever you want to call them). What happens if an individual or company wants to be "Certified LE POST instructors" they present their qualifications, training and experience to the Standards Council, who reviews the resume (for lack of a better word) and their Course/Lesson Plans, and determine if its meets the needs of the police agencies under their jurisdiction.

A good example as mentioned above is Carlos Hathcock's LE Sniper Course. Carlos was not a LE officer. He was a civilian when he got his classes going. I don't believe any of us can say he wasn't qualified to instruct LE Snipers. Therefore many state Standard Councils recognize his course as meeting their standards, so they recognize his course to certify LE Sniper/Counter Snipers.

I was LE when I got my LE Sniper Instructor Certification, but even then I had to provide the APSC with my qualifications, just being a cop didn't cut it. I presented my resume, my training, my experience, background, etc. And received my certification as a LE instructor, not just as a Sniper Instructor, but in many other subjects as well.

I'm a civilian how, having retired, BUT, my certification is still valid, Under the rules of the APSC, retired or not, as long as I teach "1" course every three years I'm still certified.

So in reality I am a civilian certified LE instructor. To instruct in a different state, I submit my "resume" and Lesson Plan and that state's POST (or what ever its called, determines if it meets their needs), granted its easier if I submit my APSC certification, but the fact is the same, I'm a civilian instructor.

You can be "certified" to work as a sniper/counter-sniper, but the Chief, or his representive determines if you work that slot or not. but your still "certified".

 

[Hairball]

There are civilian schools that train LE and offer certification but they don't teach civilians and cert them to be LE/MIL qualified shooters.

 

[Graham]

Not sure I agree with that statement....You can be "certified" to work as a sniper/counter-sniper, but the Chief, or his representive determines if you work that slot or not. but your still "certified".

A civilian school can train you, meaning give you the knowledge required for the job.
You can qualify for the job, meaning achieve the standards necessary to hold the position (including any state standards required).
But certification as a marksman/sniper cannot take place outside of having occupied the position for an agency.
Therefore no civilian school certifies you within a state to work as a marksman/sniper.

 

[kraigWY]

But certification as a marksman/sniper cannot take place outside of having occupied the position for an agency

Lets assume a dept. X number of sniper slots. Assume 2 for the sake of this conversation. Now a school becomes available in the area and the department is offered four slots, so it sends four officers. Up on successful graduation, the four officers are certified. But only two of the four take the slots available.

Are you saying the other two aren't certified??? If that's the case I totally disagree. I taught sniper schools attended by the Anchorage Police Dept Officers. Some moved into our SWAT when it was created (we called them CRT), some didn't. But the APSC certified all of them. Later, if an opening came up, one of these officers could move into that slot if he wished and was accepted by the CRT commander.

But they were all certified and in an emergency the Patrol Commander could (and did) use them even though they weren't SWAT/CRT Snipers.

Most departments don't even have the funds to have a SWAT team, or designated sniper/counter sniper team. Its an additional duty.

 

[pawprint2]

Just because a school is "certified", or is able to award CE credits by a given state(s), is just a paperwork drill. The owner(s) of the school know how to work the system, thus increasing attendance and of course their $$$$. Not long ago there was a discussion on this very board regarding """"The Ozark Mountain Gunfighters School, in Stone County near Springfield, MO""". This 'school' had an instructor named BJ Johnson, who claimed to be a Viet Nam era NAVY SEAL, was found out to nothing more than a piece of lying shit! He evidently "trained" a lot of SWAT team members and the Ozark Mountain Gunfighters School awarded CE credits that were recognized by the state (maybe more than one) and police depts.!! This guy must have been a very good liar, or the cops he taught had questionable math skills, as he [ BJ Johnson] would have 13 years old during his tour as a SEAL! So in short, an "award of credit" is far less important than getting what you've paid for, as you will be paying for this, and not charging the Tax Payers, take some time and make sure you'll be getting high quality training, just saying.....

 

[kraigWY]

I agree with that 100%, but wish to include every subject/course one attends.

The chances are if you're involved in a shooting, your instructor is more then likely going to have to go to court also. Besides his credentials in the subject he/she teaches, you should check to see how he fairs in court.

If you're state courts have already accepted the instructor as an expert in the subject he/she teaches, you're going to be much further ahead.

 

[RobertB]

Check out badlands in Oklahoma.

 

[Graham]

Lets assume a dept. X number of sniper slots. Assume 2 for the sake of this conversation. Now a school becomes available in the area and the department is offered four slots, so it sends four officers. Up on successful graduation, the four officers are certified. But only two of the four take the slots available.

Are you saying the other two aren't certified???

You are arguing semantics: The meaning of the word 'certified'. There's no single correct answer because there's no national standard for 'certification' as a sniper.

In your example, whether or not the school is a civilian school, the officer's position on the course is that he occupies a sniper slot for his agency. Upon graduation from the course he is trained. If current on the skill set, with records to match according department SOP, he is also qualified to assume a sniper role. When he assumes that role he is certified as a sniper.

Documents, Certification & Qualification

 

[kraigWY]

There's no single correct answer because there's no national standard for 'certification' as a sniper.

In your example, whether or not the school is a civilian school, the officer's position on the course is that he occupies a sniper slot for his agency. Upon graduation from the course he is trained. If current on the skill set, with records to match according department SOP, he is also qualified to assume a sniper role. When he assumes that role he is certified as a sniper.

Documents, Certification & Qualification

I never said nor implied that there is a national standard, for a LE Sniper or any thing else. The certification comes from the respective Police Standard Council. Just like anything else the officer might be trained in.

A good example is Accident Reconstruction. As a fatality traffic investigator and you reconstruct a traffic accident for court, you best be certified by your police standards council or you're going to have all kinds of problems.

Lets use another example. When I first hired on with the Anchorage Police Department, they hired me, swore me in, gave me a badge and a gun and I was told to hit the streets. I and others like me worked as a cop until they got enough people hired to justify having an academy.

But I was not a certified police officer. That didn't occur until I went to the Academy. Once I successfully attended the academy I was certified as a Police Officer by the APSC.

The department left them self open for a huge law suit, and they no longer practice that procedure.

You're a lawyer, which would you have the most fun with in court:

A: I could shoot so they made me a LE sniper

or

B: I had X, Y, Z, training, and have AA experience, for BB years, and because of that I receive the certification as a LE Sniper/Counter Sniper Certification.

 

[Graham]

You're a lawyer, which would you have the most fun with in court:

A: I could shoot so they made me a LE sniper
or
B: I had X, Y, Z, training, and have AA experience, for BB years, and because of that I receive the certification as a LE Sniper/Counter Sniper Certification.

If it's a good shoot it doesn't matter what you don't know. If it's a bad shoot; with your experience you should have performed better.

Years ago, after all our so-called 'snipers' failed to hit a 1" target at 50 yards for their cold bores, the Sergeant in charge of firearms training came to me, asked me for my cell phone number and told me that if anything operational happens which 'really' requires a difficult shot I should expect a call. I protested on the basis that I was not qualified. I was told that judgment and ability was all that mattered to him.

You've hit on one of the reasons why there are no real LE sniper standards: Because meaningful standards really aren't all that necessary to anyone but the individual.

 

[kraigWY]

Lets back up a second. We're getting off topic.

The OP asked for "Recommended schools (certified)", the topic title.

Lowlight pointed out in PM what may be a misunderstanding.,

NO where did I say anything about qualifying or certifying a civilian as a LE Sniper/Counter Sniper. What I said was Civilian Schools/Instructors can and do certify LE Snipers/Counter Snipers (not civilians) if they are certified by the state POST to instruct LEO's in that or any other subject.

 

[Graham]

The OP stated that he wanted to learn advanced marksmanship skills and fieldcraft, and that he wants to attend a course that certifies within the state to work as a marksman/sniper. Taken literally that could include almost any reputable school. Presumably the OP isn't asking for a complete list of recommended marksmanship schools, but then again one never knows for sure when an OP casts such a wide net.

The stated desire to learn fieldcraft will narrow it down a bit, depending on what is his definition of 'fieldcraft'.

 

[paramil]

The OP stated that he wanted to learn advanced marksmanship skills and fieldcraft, and that he wants to attend a course that certifies within the state to work as a marksman/sniper. Taken literally that could include almost any reputable school. Presumably the OP isn't asking for a complete list of recommended marksmanship schools, but then again one never knows for sure when an OP casts such a wide net.

The stated desire to learn fieldcraft will narrow it down a bit, depending on what is his definition of 'fieldcraft'.

Gentlemen:

Please allow me to elaborate and maybe clear the air a little bit. I am active duty Mil/LEO, so yes a certification is for a resume builder/FITREP/OMPF, however the "craft" has been a hobby for years. I have not yet figured out where I would like to settle so yes willing to travel. By field craft I mean hides and stalking, which is the hardest skill to master in my opinion and is not taught by many schools out there. I say advanced marksmanship because I have already been to a few basic courses for long range shooting. I intentionally didn’t want a military school because at this point in the game I am too far along in my career to lateral move or try to get an SRT school seat. Best case if I could get a SRT seat, I would be an SRT commander and I would be stuck in the mobile command post during an actual call out. So yes if the school holds the ability to state/post certify someone to be a department marksman within a certain state then that would be preferable. I hope that clarifies what i am looking for. Thanks

 

[kraigWY]

Then I'll revert to my original post. Contact your State's POST/Police Standard's Council, or what ever its called and ask them for a list that they approve.

 

[Graham]

Talk to Bill at what used to be Blackwater. I took the advanced LE sniper course years ago. There was an afternoon of stalking, talk of ops planning and a fair amount of instruction on hides. I think the same people are still in charge.

 

[paramil]

KraigWY:

I am not staying in the current state in which I claim residency. So I will have to call around other states perhaps.

Graham:

Could you PM me any contact information for that/those individual/s?

 

[Hairball]

Not sure where you live but this may help...

|| Central Virginia Tactical || Precision Long Range Rifle Training || Law Enforcement Training ||

 

[Graham]

Could you PM me any contact information for that/those individual/s?

Academi
850 Puddin Ridge Rd
Moyock, NC 27958
Phone (252) 435-2488
Ask for a call back from the guy in charge of the sniper program. He knows what he is doing.

 

[paramil]

I have heard great things about CVT, however agian I would like to recieve instruction on stalking and other fieldcraft skills.

Graham:

Thanks

 

[Woj8541]

Magpul Dynamics offers two LE specific curricula for snipers. Keep your eyes on the LE forum, I'll be posting a list of our courses and dates. To my knowledge, there are no "certified" schools. There are courses that are endorsed by organizations such as the NTOA but as far as being certified, it totally depends on your department and their threshold of acceptance of certain courses.

 

[Graham]

If Caylen wants to teach fieldcraft, and I can get the time-off work, I'm there.

 

[Woj8541]

We do include fieldcraft in the 5 day basic LE curriculum. It's not much, but it's something to get them going. We also do observation exercises and KIMs games.

 

[paramil]

We do include fieldcraft in the 5 day basic LE curriculum. It's not much, but it's something to get them going. We also do observation exercises and KIMs games.

What do you practice, just stalking or ?

 

[paramil]

I guess if I had to choose between a certification or excellent training with actual field craft skills I would go with the training. So please keep the opinions coming guys.