Rifle Scopes Recommend LPVO - Special Requirements

[Anb618]

My department just modified our rifle optics policy to allow low power variable optics. In their wisdom, they’ve capped the magnification to (true) 1-4x, and it must have capped turrets.

It seems the majority of manufacturers are moving to the 1-6x or higher magnification range. If I could use a 1-6x, I’d have already purchased a PST Gen II and be done. Give me some recommendations for a 1-4x Optic?

So far on my list;
Trijicon Accupower 1-4x24
Trijicon Accupoint 1-4x24
Steiner P4Xi 1-4x24

Any other suggestions (or personal use recommendations between the above) for a quality optic in this restricted category would be appreciated!

 

[koshkin]

I really like the P4Xi for this role

ILya

 

[Mwalex]

I bought a P4Xi 1-4x a few months ago and really like the scope. I don't pick up on the turret mush that gets posted online but that could be me. The glass is very nice and I am not picking up any chromatic aberration in my limited use. The center dot is daytime bright.

 

[Anb618]

I really like the P4Xi for this role

ILya

I know enough from my lurking that you’re obviously the one to ask. ?

What makes the Steiner the best choice? I appreciate any insight you can give.

 

[Anb618]

I bought a P4Xi 1-4x a few months ago and really like the scope. I don't pick up on the turret mush that gets posted online but that could be me. The glass is very nice and I am not picking up any chromatic aberration in my limited use. The center dot is daytime bright.

I’m not concerned about mushy turrets as it’s not being used in that kind of a role. I plan to set Zero and learn my holdovers for that one in a million Patrol LE shot outside 100 yards.

 

[Sub-MOA]

I like the P4xi as well. Great glass, bright illumination, and pretty lightweight.

I haven't used the 1-4 Accupower but was not a fan of the 1-8 Accupower.

 

[Moose]

Does the P4Xi 1X4 come in a mil version or just the moa version ?

 

[srt-4_uk]

Even if you could use a PST2 1-6, I'd choose the Steiner 1-4.

 

[scharfschutze762]

Is Elcan 1/4 specter out of the question?

 

[Mwalex]

Does the P4Xi 1X4 come in a mil version or just the moa version ?

I believe the 1-4x is MOA only.

 

[Anb618]

Is Elcan 1/4 specter out of the question?

Even if it was allowed (which I’m not entirely sure), it’s damn sure outside my Patrol Sergeant/didn’t marry for money budget. ?

 

[Halberdier]

If you're looking for function, I like SFP with a circle dot reticle as close to 65 MOA as you can find. It gives you a nice floating reticle at 1x and the dot for 4x. You can even learn to use the floating reticle at 4x with a little practice, which gives you near instant switching from distant to close range. FFP messes this up because the circle is smallest when you want it full size. I don't think you'll use the optic much between the 1 and the 4.

It's a shame you're limited to 4x. 1-8x is so much more useful.

 

[koshkin]

I know enough from my lurking that you’re obviously the one to ask. ?

What makes the Steiner the best choice? I appreciate any insight you can give.

Thank you for your kind words.

P4Xi is really well optimized on 1x and the dot is very bright and well defined. Most of these scopes will be good on 4x, but 1x is where the differences are.

ILya

 

[Crews]

I'm also very curious why the majority picks the Steiner over the Trijicon Accupower 1-4. Is the difference really big or no? I'm just not crazy about the Steiner reticle over the Triji segmented circle for my use case.

 

[Mute]

If I were limited to 4x I'd go with Steiner.

 

[koshkin]

I'm also very curious why the majority picks the Steiner over the Trijicon Accupower 1-4. Is the difference really big or no? I'm just not crazy about the Steiner reticle over the Triji segmented circle for my use case.

Accupower is a nice scope, but P4Xi has better contrast across the board and substantially better FOV with less distortion. That helps speed on 1x.

ILya

 

[mwinter501]

I apologize if this has been asked and answered already, but are you choosing an optic for the PD to issue to everyone, or are they just generally authorized now and you're picking one for yourself?

 

[Anb618]

I'm also very curious why the majority picks the Steiner over the Trijicon Accupower 1-4. Is the difference really big or no? I'm just not crazy about the Steiner reticle over the Triji segmented circle for my use case.

This was my original thinking but
everyone pushing the Steiner has me swinging that direction now. Wish I could get my hands on one to see in person first. I’ve seen the Accupower, which had me leaning that direction.

Accupower is a nice scope, but P4Xi has better contrast across the board and substantially better FOV with less distortion. That helps speed on 1x.

ILya

Just the kind of specifics I’m looking for. Thanks.

I apologize if this has been asked and answered already, but are you choosing an optic for the PD to issue to everyone, or are they just generally authorized now and you're picking one for yourself?

Authorized in our general orders now, so I’m looking for myself. My department is very small. All firearms are personally owned by individual officers (except a few department AR-15’s and Mossberg 590’s). We get yearly uniform allowances to cover the cost of uniform replacement and any general gear purchases we want that the department won’t pay for. Next May’s uniform allowance will be going towards a 1-4x and mount and I’m a bit of a research whore before a gear purchase, so this is my starting point. ?

 

[UpSideDown]

I run a PST II 1-6 on an AR. I went to this from an Eotech 512. I do like it for an all-around rifle, but in my opinion it no longer fills as good of a fighting role due to the LPVO. I am now looking to go with either an Aimpoint H-2 or Trijicon MRO. Red dots are just better for most fighting-distance engagements. LPVO's are nice for sport shooting and hunting because I can see where the shots landed and I have crosshairs to work with, but that's it. The red dot on the PSTII is very bright and pretty quick, but isn't as fast as a true red dot and it's heavy in comparison. For a service gun I would want a red dot as well for the reliability aspect.

I wouldn't buy the PST again just due to durability. Warranty's are a neat cherry after the fact. Stone cold reliability is king. I don't know about the Steiner and have heard almost nothing about the Trijicon LPVO's. The only fighting LPVO I would go with is the Razor, which is heavy and not a 1-4.

A 1-4 LPVO doesn't really do anything for you except give you a more fun shooting experience. The crosshairs are cool for shooting paper targets. I don't think you'll see any realistic difference in accuracy. After the first shot goes off I would absolutely rather have a red dot than a LPVO.

With all that said, if you've gone through the thought process and want an LPVO, these are my considerations:
- Second focal plane is the way to go. It's a 1-4, you don't need FFP. The thicker stadia are useful in this range. I can repeatedly ring the 500 yard steels with my 1-6 and match .223, but even a 1-6 I can't see the hits, I hear them.
- A very bright center red dot is the way to go, I think. LPVO's don't have the 'as long as you can see the dot anywhere' capability of a red dot or Eotech, so you need to have a good eye positioning on the rifle to see the dot. Daylight bright isn't quite enough, it needs to be bright enough when you're wearing sunglasses outside
- Shooting with both eyes open is doable but is not as easy as a red dot or Eotech. LPVO's are a lot less forgiving of eye position and tend to not be a true 1x power

 

[mwinter501]

Authorized in our general orders now, so I’m looking for myself. My department is very small. All firearms are personally owned by individual officers (except a few department AR-15’s and Mossberg 590’s). We get yearly uniform allowances to cover the cost of uniform replacement and any general gear purchases we want that the department won’t pay for. Next May’s uniform allowance will be going towards a 1-4x and mount and I’m a bit of a research whore before a gear purchase, so this is my starting point. ?

I gotchya. That saves what I had to say cause it revolved around PDs wanting to go to a LPVO for a few hundred dollars.

 

[scharfschutze762]

Coming from years of using S&B short dot 1-4s. I would like to have recommended the trijicon accupower 1-4 but unfortunately mine stopped holding zero recently. I believe the erector springs might be shot. Not saying its a bad scope but I feel the S&B 1-4, NSX 1-4, USO 1-4, were superior in durability. I have have no experience with the steiner 1-4 but I may give it a try.

 

[Halberdier]

I run a PST II 1-6 on an AR. I went to this from an Eotech 512. I do like it for an all-around rifle, but in my opinion it no longer fills as good of a fighting role due to the LPVO. I am now looking to go with either an Aimpoint H-2 or Trijicon MRO. Red dots are just better for most fighting-distance engagements. LPVO's are nice for sport shooting and hunting because I can see where the shots landed and I have crosshairs to work with, but that's it. The red dot on the PSTII is very bright and pretty quick, but isn't as fast as a true red dot and it's heavy in comparison. For a service gun I would want a red dot as well for the reliability aspect.

I wouldn't buy the PST again just due to durability. Warranty's are a neat cherry after the fact. Stone cold reliability is king. I don't know about the Steiner and have heard almost nothing about the Trijicon LPVO's. The only fighting LPVO I would go with is the Razor, which is heavy and not a 1-4.

A 1-4 LPVO doesn't really do anything for you except give you a more fun shooting experience. The crosshairs are cool for shooting paper targets. I don't think you'll see any realistic difference in accuracy. After the first shot goes off I would absolutely rather have a red dot than a LPVO.

With all that said, if you've gone through the thought process and want an LPVO, these are my considerations:
- Second focal plane is the way to go. It's a 1-4, you don't need FFP. The thicker stadia are useful in this range. I can repeatedly ring the 500 yard steels with my 1-6 and match .223, but even a 1-6 I can't see the hits, I hear them.
- A very bright center red dot is the way to go, I think. LPVO's don't have the 'as long as you can see the dot anywhere' capability of a red dot or Eotech, so you need to have a good eye positioning on the rifle to see the dot. Daylight bright isn't quite enough, it needs to be bright enough when you're wearing sunglasses outside
- Shooting with both eyes open is doable but is not as easy as a red dot or Eotech. LPVO's are a lot less forgiving of eye position and tend to not be a true 1x power

I like your response. Everyone here is focused on the quality of the optic. I guess it's the nature of this forum.

My two SBRs have EOTech XPS2's on them. Nothing else gives me the target acquisition speed and margin for error as the EOTechs. I have 1-8's on a couple other rigs, which makes them super versatile. But if something bad goes down, those are not the ones I'm grabbing.

 

[Anb618]

So after my own research and all the helpful recommendations here, I’ve narrowed my decision to the P4Xi or the Accupoint.

The ONLY reason I still really like the Accupoint is never having to worry about batteries, or taking the time (under stress) to turn on my illumination. Battery life on these optics isn’t good enough to leave on for the duration of my shift. For this reason alone, i’m considering going with the Accupoint.

Anyone have/use the Accupoint? Complaints/Concerns/Arguments to convince me to ignore my current instincts and get the P4Xi? My brain could easily swing me another direction by the time I wake up tomorrow, so I hope to get some opinions and food for thought. ?

 

[UpSideDown]

Here's a flipside argument against the Accupoint. It relies on the sun. The setting of it's brightness varies depending on how much light is shining on it. When do you use illumination? In places where it's moderately dark. So now the setting of that photo receiver has to be adjusted for your use. Sure you don't have to turn it on and off, but is it going to suck in general?

Again though this entire thing comes back to 'when are you going to use it'. Which then begs the question of, why use an LPVO? I would not pick one for close range encounters. A good quality red dot can get the shit kicked out of it, is light, and can be left on for years. An LPVO is heavy, has the same issues of any scope mounted in scope rings, and can't be left on all the time. So now you have to turn illumination on, and make sure your magnification didn't get bumped and set above 1x, and the lens caps are open if you run them, and then once all that is good to go, you're still at the disadvantage of having a slower optic that requires better sight picture for marginal gains in medium range use. So why is an LPVO better than something else, for your use?

Or do you want it because it's something new and cool and now you're allowed to use it?

 

[Crews]

I've used the Accupoint 1-4 quite a bit in hunting situations. I don't know how this applies in a LE scenario, but think that there's some positives to the illumination design.

In my mind, you really don't need illumination when the sun is bright, you need it when the light is low. I've had arguably more issues with an illuminated reticle being TOO BRIGHT in low light, including my Aimpoint. This caused me to have to turn the brightness down because I couldn't see the target.

The Accupoint seems to always have the correct amount of reticle illumination for the ambient light conditions. Without adjustment.

 

[308pirate]

So far on my list;
Trijicon Accupower 1-4x24
Trijicon Accupoint 1-4X24
Steiner P4Xi 1-4x24

Having owned two (in yellow) out of the three and having had plenty of look see through the third, I chose the Steiner.

It's not even close

 

[308pirate]

I'm also very curious why the majority picks the Steiner over the Trijicon Accupower 1-4. Is the difference really big or no? I'm just not crazy about the Steiner reticle over the Triji segmented circle for my use case.

The Accupower reticle blows. Let me count the ways

1. The illumination is definitely NOT daylight bright.
2. The stadia lines are too thin
3. The holdover marks and their numbers are too thin
4. The lenses are not as clear as Steiner and have a yellowish look through them
5. Mine had crap (tiny black flakes) inside of it
6. The big segmented circle is nowhere near as fast to use as a single bright red dot (like the Steiner)

 

[308pirate]

Does the P4Xi 1X4 come in a mil version or just the moa version ?

What does it matter? You set zero with the center of the reticle at 200 yards and use the holdover marks on the bottom vertical stadia.

There's no turret dialing involved and if you need a rough range, the width of the holdover marks roughly correspond to a man's shoulder span at the given distance.

It's not a precision scope.

 

[Moose]

I run scopes like this on 10/22 rifles at all different ranges and mils makes it much easier to dial.Was down the range today with a swfa 1x4 and had steel targets at 50,100,150 and 200 yds and was dialing the crap out of that scope,lots of fun.

 

[Soulezoo]

I run scopes like this on 10/22 rifles at all different ranges and mils makes it much easier to dial.Was down the range today with a swfa 1x4 and had steel targets at 50,100,150 and 200 yds and was dialing the crap out of that scope,lots of fun.

If you're dialing on a duty rifle (LE in LE type of engagements on an assumed AR15 platform) then you're doing it wrong.

 

[308pirate]

I run scopes like this on 10/22 rifles at all different ranges and mils makes it much easier to dial.Was down the range today with a swfa 1x4 and had steel targets at 50,100,150 and 200 yds and was dialing the crap out of that scope,lots of fun.

Holy shit you're clueless about the application being discussed here......

 

[cypriss32]

I’ve got a few of the SS 1-4x and like them. They seem pretty light compared to other LPVO out there. They also hold zero and are very durable optics. I’ve had the Steiner and liked it. I sold it to try something else.

 

[Moose]

I was sad to see swfa discontinue the 1x4 and they are lighter then most scopes and fit well on a lw 10/22.I been searching for something comparable and the Steiner seems to come close but i like the reticle on the swfa better.The swfa also has plenty of elavation to get a rimfire out to 3 or 4 hundred yds.

 

[Lmatt]

This thread got me shopping for a P4Xi to put on an M&P10. I don’t have any LPVO and this seems like a good place to start

 

[Crews]

The Accupower reticle blows. Let me count the ways

1. The illumination is definitely NOT daylight bright.
2. The stadia lines are too thin
3. The holdover marks and their numbers are too thin
4. The lenses are not as clear as Steiner and have a yellowish look through them
5. Mine had crap (tiny black flakes) inside of it
6. The big segmented circle is nowhere near as fast to use as a single bright red dot (like the Steiner)

Great feedback, thanks. Most folks use the daylight brightness as the main criteria for quick 1x shots. And that makes sense. I guess since a LPVO doesn't have Aimpoint battery life I tend to focus on non-iluminated reticle design for quick daytime shots. For that reason I'd personally think the segmented was a pretty good choice. But it's hard to argue with a lot of the other reasons you mention.

 

[308pirate]

Great feedback, thanks. Most folks use the daylight brightness as the main criteria for quick 1x shots. And that makes sense. I guess since a LPVO doesn't have Aimpoint battery life I tend to focus on non-iluminated reticle design for quick daytime shots. For that reason I'd personally think the segmented was a pretty good choice. But it's hard to argue with a lot of the other reasons you mention.

Surprisingly enough, and at least to my eyes, the bold cross hair of the Steiner P3TR reticle was actually faster than the Accupower segmented circle when using both at close distances without illumination.

 

[shoobe01]

To be annoying since I am late to the party, one other option:

Zeiss Conquest V4 1-4x24mm ZQAR Illum #62 Ext. Elev. Turret Locking Single Turn Riflescope 522905-9962-060

Zeiss Conquest V4 1-4x24mm ZQAR Illum #62 Ext. Elev. Turret Locking Single Turn Riflescope 522905-9962-060 For Sale at EuroOptic.com! | Call (570) 368-3920

www.eurooptic.com

Zeiss makes what I see as a P4xi competitor. Same principle, cheapen up the things you won't notice much to make an $800 MSRP "version" of their $3,000 scope. It's apparently very nice, though I have never shot one.

AND, the link above is one on sale there now for $429 so... might be worth a look. Reticle has decent holdovers, so should work for a 5.56 at reasonable carbine ranges.


Agree, hard to find 4x top end now! I expected that when recently shopping, ended up with an SMRS with 6.5x. Nice to have, but if policy is 4 then...

 

[UpSideDown]

^^^^^^ I would not want an exposed turret scope on a duty gun.

 

[koshkin]

The quality of a few V4 scopes I have seen varied so dramatically, that Ican't make heads or tales of them. Whoever OEMs them for Zeiss does not seem terribly consistent.

ILya

 

[Crews]

Sounds like it’s all settled.........


Unless Optika 6 is better? Haha

 

[Anb618]

Here's a flipside argument against the Accupoint. It relies on the sun. The setting of it's brightness varies depending on how much light is shining on it. When do you use illumination? In places where it's moderately dark. So now the setting of that photo receiver has to be adjusted for your use. Sure you don't have to turn it on and off, but is it going to suck in general?

Again though this entire thing comes back to 'when are you going to use it'. Which then begs the question of, why use an LPVO? I would not pick one for close range encounters. A good quality red dot can get the shit kicked out of it, is light, and can be left on for years. An LPVO is heavy, has the same issues of any scope mounted in scope rings, and can't be left on all the time. So now you have to turn illumination on, and make sure your magnification didn't get bumped and set above 1x, and the lens caps are open if you run them, and then once all that is good to go, you're still at the disadvantage of having a slower optic that requires better sight picture for marginal gains in medium range use. So why is an LPVO better than something else, for your use?

Or do you want it because it's something new and cool and now you're allowed to use it?

Answering section in bold; I work for a small municipal department in a relatively rural area of the county. We’re frequently called out to assist them, and have lots of annexed rural residences, farmland, and large wooded areas in our own jurisdiction where it would have been beneficial in the past to have some magnification on my rifle. I see the minor loss of close-quarters ability (if there truly is any...my experience shooting one on a buddy’s rifle didn’t feel any slower to me) to still be a net positive with the gained target identification capability.

 

[maverick2]

Another 1-4 that may warrant some consideration is Meopta's ZD 1-4x22. A little more money than the Steiner, but gives you a different reticle option to choose from. (I found one for $800 a month or two ago, and am still kicking myself for passing on it.)

 

[RaymondPembrose]

I wouldn't consider the Accupoint 1-4 for a patrol rifle optic, brightness is insufficient in my experience and battery life is horrible. If it is an optic that will remain on 1x with illumination on, look elsewhere... The upside of the Accupoint is the lack of need to worry about battery life whatsoever, I was very happy with my TR24 for what its worth. Worked very well on 1x, brightness was daylight bright, and it is very light compared to say a Razor.

 

[Anb618]

Bringing this back from the grave to provide some closure to anyone waiting for my decision with bated breath.

Ordered the P4Xi 1-4x24 from CameraLandNY yesterday morning. Enjoyed talking to Neil, and got a good price. Looking forward to running it through some drills when it gets here.

 

[drewthebrave]

Let us know how you like it. The Steiner 1-4x has gone up in price lately, and the Accupower is getting clearanced at $400. Curious to see if that affects recommendations for others considering something similar.

 

[shoobe01]

Since it's too late, I'll do my usual confounding for anyone else looking in future

I didn't know it existed until last week, but there's a Steiner Military 1-4x24. Got one for [much less than retail] open box, and it's lovely. Haven't shot it yet, need rings (how did I forget that!?), but it's just like the 4-16 I use on the bolt gun, seems very nice. Daylight bright, and I love it because all dials and so on are the same as one I shoot a lot.

Also: military is serious for them. They don't sell Px4s to armies, they sell these. So yes heavy, but very rugged.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

What a retarded policy. Your agency sounds like its run by morons.

A 1-4 shortdot would and is still the greatest 1-4 LPV ever made. Trijicon makes junk LPVs and Steiner is probably a US made hunk of shit like the TX and the 4-16PX. NF 1-4 while old as balls and technologically obsolete, would also fall into that category and is proven for hard use.

Unless Steiner has Military and Made in Germany printed on it, its not worth buying.

There are so many good 1-8/10 LPV's today its makes zero sense your agency would cuck people.

 

[Anb618]

What a retarded policy. Your agency sounds like its run by morons.

A 1-4 shortdot would and is still the greatest 1-4 LPV ever made. Trijicon makes junk LPVs and Steiner is probably a US made hunk of shit like the TX and the 4-16PX. NF 1-4 while old as balls and technologically obsolete, would also fall into that category and is proven for hard use.

Unless Steiner has Military and Made in Germany printed on it, its not worth buying.

There are so many good 1-8/10 LPV's today its makes zero sense your agency would cuck people.

Even if I could afford an S&B Short Dot, which as I stated previously on my salary I most definitely cannot at a retail price over $2,800, that optic would obviously not fit my requirements:

1) Exposed Turrets
2) The product is marketed as a 1.1-4x24, rendering it outside my department policy as they require a “true” 1x on the low end.

Every post I’ve seen from you in the recent past has been negative, talking down to people because they’re not spending enough money, and generally argumentative. Love that you completely trash an optic you have no experience with. Not defending my purchase here (hell, I don’t even have it in hand yet and I may end up hating it), just pointing out how ridiculous this post is...enjoy flaunting your supposed budget and ridiculing others online.

 

[CrabsandFootball]

I have no experience with them? Bubba, I have owned just about every LPV since the shortdot (which i carried on my carbine in Iraq).

Trijicon, Steiner, Luepold, Bushnell, Burris, NF, Primary arms abortion, March, vortex, NCstar , S&B, Kahles, Eotech , Elcan , USO and probably a few more I cant remember, all in attempt to find a good , durable, hard use LPV that enhances not just shooting, but PID & drop comp.

I'm giving you the hard bought lessons and experience and you want to cop an attitude? No go ahead buy junk gear that was liquidated for a reason (Hint, no one fucking wanted them because they were obsolete way back when). Been there, done that have the Tshirt.

Hey its your life on the line, or your fellow officers. Go buy your cheap inferior shit that will fail in training or in your trunk hopefully instead of a 2 way range.

If your LPV is not daylight bright on 1x, you are wasting your time and money. For duty use its not even negotiable. That just narrowed the list down significantly.

There are places to cut corners with cheaper gear and there are places you don't. Your firearm , optic and mount is not the place to save a few bucks.

Your agencies dumb fucking moronic rules (Let me guess, created by some broke dick who doesn't know which end the bullet comes out much less knowledge of tactical employment of a rifle) make this really hard.

NF nxs 1-4 would probably be my option as the Least terrible choice. At least you can trust your life to it. Half the shit people listed would get destroyed bouncing around in a trunk or mount before a round is even fired.

Lots of people recommending shit who have never carried a rifle in combat or on patrol.

Don't worry in a few weeks or months you will be back here asking what LPV to buy because your range toy went tits up. Or how terrible SteinerUSA/Burris CS is.

Furthermore there is no such thing as true 1x. EVERY LPV and every red dot sight on the planet has some form of magnification be it 1.05x or 1.1x. Hope you can shoot with irons.

 

[MPrimo]

Just bought the Steiner based on input from his forum and I am very pleased. Glass is fantastic for the price.