Recommendations for a duty AR-10

[Dave3006]

My last word to SH as I am on permanent vacation

Fuck off you cocksucking asshole.

 

[jameslee]

In my opinion, and I understand that others may differ, expenditure of taxpayer funds should be preceded by a requirements determination.
How do you establish a $3500 budget without knowing what you need and what you need it for?
The OP says I need accuracy and a rifle that will stand up to handling. How accurate and how much handling?
Does the budget include optics? Do you need optics?
If I had $3500 to spend on an AR-10, I would buy one for $2500 and treat my squad mate to a night of hookers.

 

[DavidAR10]

I agree with^^^^^ but would also add the JPLRP 07.

RFA. That's wRong Fucking Answer for those in Rio Linda.

ARMALITE was surveyed in the sandbox and was viewed as highly favorable.

Even Kevin from KAC wouldn't badmouth ARMALITE. He knows what was involved in the SASS trials.

[marklevinvoice]THERE!!! I said it!!![/marklevinvoice]

 

[MKSMN]

1. Opinion on an Internet forum is now one's contribution to society? Nice logical leap there. I am honest, brutally honest. You are either ignorant or you are in denial. I am not going to paint you some rosy bullshit picture, because it's just not my style. If your looking for that, you came to the wrong place.

2. Assumptions are made based on the OP's actual post. It reeks of inexperience and the post paints a picture of the situation based on the information presented and the lack of information. A trained marksman (you know the type that would ACTUALLY employ the weapon system he is asking about) would not be asking such stupid and rudimentary questions. They would already realize that that price would be a joke for a weapon system. You are oblivious to the details that reveal more than the simple words.

Thinking that you are brutally honest while acting like an asshole to everyone you encounter sounds like a lot of those cops that Dave and Smcarroll have had some encounters with. That's a common problem with burnouts from the military and law enforcement. Being jaded by the thousands of preceding idiots you've dealt with doesn't mean you have to treat every who comes after them with an attitude.

I don't disagree with you on your second point. I suggested that neither you nor I know whether the OP is what he suggests. I generally prefer to wait and see, rather than to launch an attack on anyone I encounter who sounds a little "off." There are a lot of details missing from his post. We don't know whether this is a LEO from a small town with no need or use for a SWAT type unit. I preferred to answer the question as asked, simply because if they want one, they may as well have a good one, ore realize they can't afford a good one. Better than buying cheap crap.

3. PLEASE show me where criminals are running around with superior weaponry. Please show me where they have armored vehicles or are engaging in the type of combat and acts of violence, in numbers, that would require a semi-automatic large caliber weapon system to engage them at long range.............. Sounds like you buy into the LEO bullshit that you need MRAPS, Grenade launchers, anti-armor weaponry and 240B's to handle all these new threats?

Your bitterness is coming through again. I didn't allege that criminals have superior weaponry. They do have a lot of it, but usually of suspect quality. Armored vehicles aren't common, but occasionally they've been encountered. However, none of these are reasons to acquire a large-caliber weapons system to engage "them" at long range. The average LE marksman's shot is under 70 yards. Long range isn't even part of the math here. There is a possibility that in very rural environments it could become part of the equation, but I don't think any LE agency near me has any anti-materiel rifles. And no, I don't think MRAPS have any use outside of SWAT/Warrant raids, and a Lenco Bearcat is much more optimized. Standard grenade launchers are useless because of the civilian ROE encoded in law, although when the anarchist/occupy/EarthFirst crowd comes out a launcher with gas grenades is helpful. And when an old man is threatening to kill someone with a knife, a rubberized 40mm grenade does well at knocking him down. Anti-armor weaponry and 240B's are both completely useless for my purposes and a total liability.

4. I have no problem with LEO using a AR-10 or similar gun for a marksmanship role as long as they have the training and experience to employ them. 99.99% of engagements will be handled with one shot from a bolt gun, and we all know the increased skill it takes to employ a semi-precision rig. I don't like the idea of under trained and inexperienced officers being giving equipment they don't understand and don't know how to use. With weeks of marksmanship training with a sidearm, the majority of LEO's are still piss poor shots. All agencies care about is lowest common denominator annual or semi annual qualifications than any novice shooter would be able to clean the course.

Glad to hear you don't discriminate against semi-auto's. I thought you might have been a militant bolt fanboy. I agree that it is more complex, and that it requires more training than average street cops get. Your standard SWAT unit in the Pacific Northwest gets significantly more training and opportunity to become proficient on department weapons and department time. Your allegation that the majority of LE are "piss-poor shots", well, that requires quantification. You are definitely correct that departments care only about having officers pass a qual. The problem with restricted budgets is that those who can barely pass need more training. Novices can rarely pass the quals in my area. The departments train rookies until they can pass, then expect them to show up once a year and requalify with no issues. Range time isn't paid for. For some, that's all the shooting they do, once a year, at quals. That's bad. Those are usually the ones who haven't fired a gun before they were hired, and have no interest in maintaining or training on their own.

5. When it comes to employing Semi-precision systems, members of the Military who actual used and have been around those systems will almost universally know more than any civilian or leo. It's a function of experience and being there. You bringing up my military service just makes you look like a jackass when it was never part of the discussion. Nice try.

You HAVE served in the military. Congratulations on some serious life experience, and thank you! I suspected you had because of the insignia and your tone. Since you have served in the military, you will be well aware that there are VERY VERY FEW in the military who have actually used any semi-precision systems on a regular basis. The vast majority of the U.S. Army is not in a designated marksman role, nor are they snipers...although sometimes it seems like everyone and their brother was the "Ranger Delta sniper what was in eye-rack shootin' jihadis from a mile away." That was my point. Those who HAVE filled that role are far better at what they did/do professionally than almost anyone else, including LE.

6. YOU have a clear ignorance of ballistics, terminal effects, armor penetration ability and overall bullet effects on target. Hitting someone center mass with a .308 and with a 5.56 is not going to have drastically different terminal effects. Both will result in pass through at distance and both will require CNS/Vital hits to terminate the threat immediately. 5.56 actual has better AP properties than .308 due to speed and common bullet construction (M855 vs 147gr FMJ or 175GR SMK). 5.56 will be easier to shoot, have less recoil, better Lvl3 armor penetration, have more capacity, will be lighter and will be easier to make hits with. There is zero advantage unless you plan to engage targets over 600 yards.

LE in this area is not allowed to use M855, or any other 55gr FMJ. Too many "over-penetration" worries from admin. Instead they get a polymer-tipped 55gr bullet tailored for rapid expansion. That's fine against soft targets, but not great against anything behind cover. It wasn't my impression that the OP was asking about a "breach and clear" type weapon, but rather a marksman's rifle. If they were looking for an entry rifle, I'd recommend against .308 ANYTHING simply because of the difficulty and expense of making the noise/flash/recoil manageable for indoor use in cramped spaces.

7. I as the taxpayer, DO have a say. It's MY money that is funding this stupidity. Public service and all that shit.....

Yes, you do. Go to a town hall meeting and make an issue of it in the appropriate forum that actually affects you, and to which your tax dollars go. Perhaps your opinions on the needs of LE in your local area are accurate, perhaps they aren't. They're probably not accurate for my area. If you feel that you're ignored, make an issue of it, work to elect a new mayor, and then approach it again.

8. Please explain to me how a piece of equipment with zero support given to personal with little to no training benefits anyone? I can give you plenty of reasons why it is a LIABILITY.

It doesn't. So if the OP's department is going to purchase a rifle, they'd better set up a hefty amount of training, or be prepared to pay out when someone screws up,

9. You sound like a scared little bitch. There are LESS threats and LESS violence now then there has EVER been in US history. Perhaps a little community policing and actually doing your fucking jobs would have better results than speed traps , entrapment and creating a militarized force that only makes the situation worse. There is a reason most people dislike cops. There is a most people do not trust cops. Your attitude of us vs them is a large factory in why things are the way they are.

An overreaching government, SS esque DHS and Militarization of the Police are a GREATER threat to the American public and the constitution than any Islamic terrorist, gang member or common criminal could ever be. This is what you fail to understand.

Alleging that I sound scared without saying why is amusing at best. I'm not worried about dealing with anyone. There are less LE killings now than any time previous, discounting terrorist acts (9-11, which was a huge anomaly, screwed up the stats). In part, that's because LE has learned that rushing in is not always the best course, and that calling in a heavily armed and armored SWAT unit saves lives. We still lose LE to domestic violence calls, which are some of the most dangerous, since the victim may go sideways on LE. But there is a reason, as you chose to put it, that LE doesn't trust people. When Dave's "Americans" roll up and randomly shoot a cop sitting at an intersection (Officer Timothy Q. Brenton, Seattle Police Department, Washington), you can't expect your local LE to immediately look at you as their buddy unless they know you personally. Don't get offended by that. Just be aware that sometimes the "bad guys" look a lot like you on the street. Two Las Vegas police were killed by random crazies last week while eating lunch. (It didn't help that the crazies had been out at the Bundy Ranch previously. You know the media brought that up repeatedly, and ignored that the crazies had been asked to leave.) That's why LE isn't necessarily "Officer Friendly" all the time. Those of you who were deployed to Iraq and A-stan knew better than to be too friendly with unknown locals in some situations. I don't have an "Us vs. them" attitude, until it comes to gangs and criminals. Then it is ALL of us vs. them. Unless you lump yourself in with criminals for some reason, I don't think that should bother you.

The overreaching of the government is a problem, and I don't like it any more than you do. It started a long time ago with the expansion of the Commerce Clause. But I don't work for Congress, and I don't work for the White House. I can't help you solve those problems today. The police in general are not your problem. DHS is a pretty small agency, though more political...I don't know how they're a threat to you. And you might be surprised to find out how many uniformed personnel of both types agree with your opinions.

People like you, and Smcarroll, and Dave (well, maybe Dave, I couldn't say for sure) are some of the people I like to run into at work. I know that you're often armed. It doesn't worry me. I know that you're cranky about having ignorant people tell you what you can and can't have, and sometimes you're paranoid that I might be working for the people who are not your friends in DC. I know you'll resent me as much as the next guy when I write you for 21mph over in a highway work zone, even if you will check your speed more carefully next time. But I also know that when some yahoo decides to try to kill me and everyone else in the area, you'll be ready to help stop him, and you'll do a better job of that than half my colleagues will.

 

[fdkay]

You think this beacuse you are short sighting and ignorant.

Who selects the weapons that your "force recon scout snipers" use? Think about that and then get back to me.

The origional AR in 7.62 is not even close to the same as our current SR-25 pattern guns, and who says its accurate and reliable? You mean durring unscientific, unspecific testing that was done. It was so reliable that the barrel exploded durring testing and they outright removed it from consideration due to it needing drastic engineering and manufacturing revisions before it could even be tested........................


Furthermore, No one in the right mind would be reccomending these type of rifle to LE, unless they have a SPECIFIC NEED & TRAINING, and UNDERSTANDING of why they would choose this. There is virtualy zero advantage over a M4 for carbine/rifle duties and as a primary sniper/marksman rifle, it is also a poor choice. It MAY be a decent option for a spotter's weapon/backup to the primary bolt. Considering the types of engagements that LE will get into, and the lack of training (especialy running semi-precision rigs) it is a flat out horrible idea to run one as a primary gun.

Putting an arbitary price limit like $3500 just shows, there is zero need for this equipment, just some retard with a badge who wants to buy something cool.

The fact you would even reccomend some shit garbage commercial brand like RRA beacuse "dur muy brova haz one and its shootz da tiney holez wit handloads" as justification for an agency/duty purchase removes all your legitemacy from speaking on this topic.

Turdcutter, you are such a fucking tool.
I mentioned RRA and specifically noted that there were reliability problems associated with it, while being factual that it is indeed, capable of very good accuracy.
Perhaps you missed where I suggested that he consider the Les Baer.

You're such a fucking retard, you missed the entire point of my mentioning military snipers.
They are issued a fucking weapon, and even after attending one of the finest military sniper schools on the planet, many of them still don't know shit about selecting a rifle, optics and gear.
Competence as a sniper, door kicker or whatever, does not a weapons expert make you.

Shooting a precision auto loader is not some monumental undertaking that is exponentially more difficult than shooting a bolt gun accurately.

So, how bout shut the fuck up for once?

 

[Smcarroll]

Best way to deal with turdcutter.

This message is hidden because Cobracutter is on your ignore list.

 

[Cobracutter]

Turdcutter, you are such a fucking tool.
I mentioned RRA and specifically noted that there were reliability problems associated with it, while being factual that it is indeed, capable of very good accuracy.
Perhaps you missed where I suggested that he consider the Les Baer.

You're such a fucking retard, you missed the entire point of my mentioning military snipers.
They are issued a fucking weapon, and even after attending one of the finest military sniper schools on the planet, many of them still don't know shit about selecting a rifle, optics and gear.
Competence as a sniper, door kicker or whatever, does not a weapons expert make you.

Shooting a precision auto loader is not some monumental undertaking that is exponentially more difficult than shooting a bolt gun accurately.

So, how bout shut the fuck up for once?

And you still fail to understand the fundamental difference between some ignorant badge and the military source and selection of weapon systems.

We are talking about the people WHO SOURCE AND SELECT the weapons, not employ them.

And yes, shooting a semi to the same proficiency as a bolt gun is, exponentially more difficult. Anyone who has done both realizes this.

You don't know shit, so try taking your own advice

 

[Cobracutter]

More bullshit snipped.

You flip flop more than Al gore. Your also fucking so far off the point and assumptions you are just rambling about nothing.

You also sound like you suck the department dick a little to hard, but i guess you gota suck your way up the chain. Looks like someone actually paid attention to all those powerpoints written by the propagandists.

Let give you some advice, LE does not even crack the top 10 most dangerous jobs in the US, its not even close. A truck driver, a Farmer and Trash men ALL have exponentially more dangerous jobs than LE. I don't hear them bitching and complaining.

Your incoherent rambling and attempt to shove useless trivia (that Is already common knowledge to anyone above room temperature IQ) does not support anything you have said. Its just pointless, dribble.

I could sit here and pick apart everything you type, but its not worth my time or the electrons.

You are part of the problem, even worse, your a "true believer'.......similar to the mentality of Communists, Nazi's and Totalitarian Regimes who don't need a resume. You also do not sound too bright. This is a dangerous combination, comrade.

And one last point beacuse this is what really chaps my ass:

It's your fucking JOB to be police. To deal with the shit, be professional and make the communities better. As a soldier, I wanted to shoot ever mother fucker I saw in the middle east, ALL OF THEM. Unfortunately, its my job NOT to indiscriminately kill people, even if they may be harboring or be the enemy. I got paid NO where near as well as LE, I was away for over a year at a time, lived in shitty conditions, ate shit, and was constant under stress from both the AO and back home. And I was LUCKY, most people had it WAY worse. I don't want to hear your fucking sob story about one officer out of tens of thousands who was killed in some random, freak act. I can link sob stories all day, but it doesn't prove anything other than human nature.

Big fucking deal if some guy walks up and kills a cop once. People get shot and murdered every day. Does this mean convenience store clerks should draw down on every customer because there is a chance they could be shot and robbed? Its a one in 100 Million chance. About as likely that lighting will strike me dead. It does not give all cops the right to draw down or escalate force because of some rare thing that COULD happen, maybe.

If you can't handle the stress, duties and professionalism of being LE, then pick another job. You get highly compensated to NOT be a scared little bitch and to maintain your composure when dealing with the people who you are sworn to serve. Your job is not that dangerous, so man up and stop crying.

This is the BIGGEST problem with LE. They think there might be a bad guy behind every rock. So they treat every rock is if there is the Bad guy. Sooner or Later, every one that could be a bad guy starts to look like a bad guy (how can you know someone intention solely on what you see). Now they start to create situations and escalate events that should never have happened if they were just doing their fucking job in the first place. For every cop that is killed in the line of duty, I can show you a citizen who was murdered or negligently or mistakingly killed by the police. The same shit that would land a soldier in Ft. Leavenworth for a dime, gets brushed off/covered up/hidden in LE circles.

Remember these Fine LEO's from a few years ago?

 

[DavidAR10]

And yes, shooting a semi to the same proficiency as a bolt gun is, exponentially more difficult. Anyone who has done both realizes this.

Exponentially? Hell, even twice as difficult?

 

[MKSMN]

Angry asshole is angry: bullshit snipped.

Take it easy bud. I try to work with people like you. But, since you apparently don't want to get along with anyone, we'll just have to go separate ways.

Take care, don't get belligerent with the wrong people, don't drink too much, stay out of jail, and live a good life.

This message is hidden because Cobracutter is on your ignore list.

 

[jjnew]

I'd call Rock River! They have a few models to choose from. All of them shoot moa or better. If you ever used a RRA you know that they are built like M1A1s. Given your budget and needs its hard to beat Rock River. I shot the LAR 308 and the Varmint heavy barrel models. They are very accurate, tough as nails and cost less than other makes and models. Other rifles like LWRC, and JP are high priced to begin with. Being in law enforcement you might get a discount cost. Maybe the Operator Series, A-4 standard, varmint, x/x-1, and predator! That's A lot of options to look at. Check out the RRA sight I think you'll like what you see.

 

[fdkay]

I got paid NO where near as well as LE,

Cry me a river, you are a lying bag of shit.
Having served in the military for 24 fucking years, I know for a fucking fact that those in the military get paid better than the vast majority of cops in the country.
Hell, my retirement was almost as much as my starting pay when I first started as a cop and my son, a Sgt in the Marine Corps makes more than I do as a cop.

Military pay now is so much better than it was when I joined in 1982 (and I am glad it is) it isn't even funny. I well remember serving overseas, collecting 181 dollars twice a month. That is not the case anymore, thankfully so. But your typical E4 makes as much as your typical beat cop and the ratio is probably pretty close to the same now as it was then and the cops don't get free room and board, free medical and dental. Cops also don't get tax free status, hazardous duty pay, separation allowance, housing allowance, signing bonuses etc...

There are plenty of cops making 27,000 a year with crappy benefit packages. They don't do the job for money, they do the job because that is what they want to do and yes, some do the job for other than ethical reasons.

I will tell you, I knew plenty of pieces of shit in the military in my 24 years. I don't ascribe that to all other military members though.

 

[jjnew]

Amen brother! In 2009 Obama said in a interview transcript, we can no longer depend solely on the military to defend us, we need a civilian security force as well funded and as powerful. He went on to say I will have my own military. China did this same thing, their people were out side a Gov building protesting for open elections. Their government ordered their army to fire on the people, when they refused their civilian security force fired on both, citizens and army killing them all. Someone tell me why cops all over this country need MRADs and APCs to take on cowards like gang bangers and narco traffickers? I really doubt SWAT needs armor to stop dirtbags. Why does Ohio State Univ need an APC? DHS and the Pentagon label guys like us and anyone that love freedom, low taxes, pro life, and small Government domestic terror threats. They say the same thing about former Military vets. Ive read way to many articles about cops in our nation agreeing with this trash.... This is all bad.

 

[wildcats]

What people should really be worried about is the militarization of our domestic police forces. There is a reason why police are committing acts of violence on the American people. They are being taught they are in a war zone and their enemy is the American people. DHS (America's SS) bribes them with military hardware. It is all part of the plan to create an US and THEM mentality.

You should be afraid. Things have changed.

Amen!

 

[TacosGigante]

While I disagree with his tone, [MENTION=7585]Cobracutter[/MENTION] is like a belligerent and foul mouthed Radley Balko, which I cannot help but appreciate.

 

[jasonfaz]

Thinking that you are brutally honest while acting like an asshole to everyone you encounter sounds like a lot of those cops that Dave and Smcarroll have had some encounters with. That's a common problem with burnouts from the military and law enforcement. Being jaded by the thousands of preceding idiots you've dealt with doesn't mean you have to treat every who comes after them with an attitude.

I don't disagree with you on your second point. I suggested that neither you nor I know whether the OP is what he suggests. I generally prefer to wait and see, rather than to launch an attack on anyone I encounter who sounds a little "off." There are a lot of details missing from his post. We don't know whether this is a LEO from a small town with no need or use for a SWAT type unit. I preferred to answer the question as asked, simply because if they want one, they may as well have a good one, ore realize they can't afford a good one. Better than buying cheap crap.



Your bitterness is coming through again. I didn't allege that criminals have superior weaponry. They do have a lot of it, but usually of suspect quality. Armored vehicles aren't common, but occasionally they've been encountered. However, none of these are reasons to acquire a large-caliber weapons system to engage "them" at long range. The average LE marksman's shot is under 70 yards. Long range isn't even part of the math here. There is a possibility that in very rural environments it could become part of the equation, but I don't think any LE agency near me has any anti-materiel rifles. And no, I don't think MRAPS have any use outside of SWAT/Warrant raids, and a Lenco Bearcat is much more optimized. Standard grenade launchers are useless because of the civilian ROE encoded in law, although when the anarchist/occupy/EarthFirst crowd comes out a launcher with gas grenades is helpful. And when an old man is threatening to kill someone with a knife, a rubberized 40mm grenade does well at knocking him down. Anti-armor weaponry and 240B's are both completely useless for my purposes and a total liability.



Glad to hear you don't discriminate against semi-auto's. I thought you might have been a militant bolt fanboy. I agree that it is more complex, and that it requires more training than average street cops get. Your standard SWAT unit in the Pacific Northwest gets significantly more training and opportunity to become proficient on department weapons and department time. Your allegation that the majority of LE are "piss-poor shots", well, that requires quantification. You are definitely correct that departments care only about having officers pass a qual. The problem with restricted budgets is that those who can barely pass need more training. Novices can rarely pass the quals in my area. The departments train rookies until they can pass, then expect them to show up once a year and requalify with no issues. Range time isn't paid for. For some, that's all the shooting they do, once a year, at quals. That's bad. Those are usually the ones who haven't fired a gun before they were hired, and have no interest in maintaining or training on their own.



You HAVE served in the military. Congratulations on some serious life experience, and thank you! I suspected you had because of the insignia and your tone. Since you have served in the military, you will be well aware that there are VERY VERY FEW in the military who have actually used any semi-precision systems on a regular basis. The vast majority of the U.S. Army is not in a designated marksman role, nor are they snipers...although sometimes it seems like everyone and their brother was the "Ranger Delta sniper what was in eye-rack shootin' jihadis from a mile away." That was my point. Those who HAVE filled that role are far better at what they did/do professionally than almost anyone else, including LE.



LE in this area is not allowed to use M855, or any other 55gr FMJ. Too many "over-penetration" worries from admin. Instead they get a polymer-tipped 55gr bullet tailored for rapid expansion. That's fine against soft targets, but not great against anything behind cover. It wasn't my impression that the OP was asking about a "breach and clear" type weapon, but rather a marksman's rifle. If they were looking for an entry rifle, I'd recommend against .308 ANYTHING simply because of the difficulty and expense of making the noise/flash/recoil manageable for indoor use in cramped spaces.



Yes, you do. Go to a town hall meeting and make an issue of it in the appropriate forum that actually affects you, and to which your tax dollars go. Perhaps your opinions on the needs of LE in your local area are accurate, perhaps they aren't. They're probably not accurate for my area. If you feel that you're ignored, make an issue of it, work to elect a new mayor, and then approach it again.



It doesn't. So if the OP's department is going to purchase a rifle, they'd better set up a hefty amount of training, or be prepared to pay out when someone screws up,



Alleging that I sound scared without saying why is amusing at best. I'm not worried about dealing with anyone. There are less LE killings now than any time previous, discounting terrorist acts (9-11, which was a huge anomaly, screwed up the stats). In part, that's because LE has learned that rushing in is not always the best course, and that calling in a heavily armed and armored SWAT unit saves lives. We still lose LE to domestic violence calls, which are some of the most dangerous, since the victim may go sideways on LE. But there is a reason, as you chose to put it, that LE doesn't trust people. When Dave's "Americans" roll up and randomly shoot a cop sitting at an intersection (Officer Timothy Q. Brenton, Seattle Police Department, Washington), you can't expect your local LE to immediately look at you as their buddy unless they know you personally. Don't get offended by that. Just be aware that sometimes the "bad guys" look a lot like you on the street. Two Las Vegas police were killed by random crazies last week while eating lunch. (It didn't help that the crazies had been out at the Bundy Ranch previously. You know the media brought that up repeatedly, and ignored that the crazies had been asked to leave.) That's why LE isn't necessarily "Officer Friendly" all the time. Those of you who were deployed to Iraq and A-stan knew better than to be too friendly with unknown locals in some situations. I don't have an "Us vs. them" attitude, until it comes to gangs and criminals. Then it is ALL of us vs. them. Unless you lump yourself in with criminals for some reason, I don't think that should bother you.

The overreaching of the government is a problem, and I don't like it any more than you do. It started a long time ago with the expansion of the Commerce Clause. But I don't work for Congress, and I don't work for the White House. I can't help you solve those problems today. The police in general are not your problem. DHS is a pretty small agency, though more political...I don't know how they're a threat to you. And you might be surprised to find out how many uniformed personnel of both types agree with your opinions.

People like you, and Smcarroll, and Dave (well, maybe Dave, I couldn't say for sure) are some of the people I like to run into at work. I know that you're often armed. It doesn't worry me. I know that you're cranky about having ignorant people tell you what you can and can't have, and sometimes you're paranoid that I might be working for the people who are not your friends in DC. I know you'll resent me as much as the next guy when I write you for 21mph over in a highway work zone, even if you will check your speed more carefully next time. But I also know that when some yahoo decides to try to kill me and everyone else in the area, you'll be ready to help stop him, and you'll do a better job of that than half my colleagues will.

With all due respect, while I can understand (to an extent) why you have the opinion you do, it is blatantly clear that you're backpedaling fast enough that if you could replicate such speed on an actual bike you could be the first person to ever win the Tour de France going backwards. Why is it that addressing a misguided question that exacerbates a very well known related issue - with respect to indiscriminate govt spending, militarization of LE, the abuse of power, authority and public trust, and many others - with 100% fact is an issue for you? You really do sound like you're stammering trying to find any bullshit excuse to justify what we all already know is bullshit.

Here's a good paragraph that is a great example as your shit is off in nearly every sentence.......

"Your bitterness is coming through again. I didn't allege that criminals have superior weaponry. They do have a lot of it, but usually of suspect quality. Armored vehicles aren't common, but occasionally they've been encountered. However, none of these are reasons to acquire a large-caliber weapons system to engage "them" at long range. The average LE marksman's shot is under 70 yards. Long range isn't even part of the math here. There is a possibility that in very rural environments it could become part of the equation, but I don't think any LE agency near me has any anti-materiel rifles. And no, I don't think MRAPS have any use outside of SWAT/Warrant raids, and a Lenco Bearcat is much more optimized. Standard grenade launchers are useless because of the civilian ROE encoded in law, although when the anarchist/occupy/EarthFirst crowd comes out a launcher with gas grenades is helpful. And when an old man is threatening to kill someone with a knife, a rubberized 40mm grenade does well at knocking him down. Anti-armor weaponry and 240B's are both completely useless for my purposes and a total liability."

Here is the problem with the above garbage....
In your previous post(s) you bitch about others making assumptions around the average range LE engages a threat, as it was the basis of the opposing argument that held a S/A 308 is not only inappropriate for such engagements but fucking idotic. There were very applicable reasons that followed that statement to explain why. You also made mention of K/E charts and that alone translating into a significant tactical advantage in favor of a 308 from a ballistics standpoint. WTF are you talking about! At that point I honestly hoped you were really just fucking with everyone, but im not sure thats the case. At the end of the day, you do nothing more than confirm those prior assumptions you strongly implied were false just a few posts before are indeed very accurate - as were all of the other assumptions. You then start to fuck with words and turn the statement "large caliber weapon systems" into "anti-material rifles". Where the fuck did that come from? The prior statement was clearly referring to the afore-mentioned 308, which would be a large caliber weapon system if taken in context of the conversation at hand and the .223 it was being compared to.

"Standard grenade lauchers are useless" .......but wait.....40mm rubber projos are the shit. Well guess what Sherlock, it doesnt take much to pop in an M433 or an M406 and blow whatever you want to hell. But when we all have to listen to some appointed Chief ensure us that theyre only being used for riot control we should probably just sit back, relax and take your word for it, right? MRAPS, $10k PVS-27s, thermal, blah blah. Fuck that. You should be buying more ammo with that 3500 and getting guys to the god damn range instead of complianing about budget and your inability to conquer the almighty political machine lest you be..........laid off! Agghhhhhh! All normal shit here MN. Some skip the bitching and get to finding a solution. Some are content with tantrums and 99 excuses.

Like previously stated, every paragraph you wrote screams ignorance - but worse - ignorance in the wake of truly, genuinely believing to the very core that what you are saying is acceptable and accurate. Youre taken aback at people responding with conviction, experience, and knowledge? I think we need more of it and less people whining about how hurt their feelings are. Squeeze that puckered up asshole back in nice and tight and apply what you learn instead of moping around feeling sorry for yourself. You clearly steer the conversation away from the topic being discussed in order to avoid having to actually take responsibility for your actions and your words. Well FUCK ME.... doesnt that problem seem to be repeating itself across govt agencies and the LE community!! But, NO, its everyone else's fault. All those paranoid, fear mongering idiots with no reason to be a little fucking agitated.

 

[Smcarroll]

Well said Jason.

 

[Raivkka]

Obviously this thread had deteriorated and no longer a source for information or sensible conversation.

It SHOULD be Closed/Locked.

 

[MKSMN]

You really do sound like you're stammering trying to find any bullshit excuse to justify what we all already know is bullshit.

Here's a good paragraph that is a great example as your shit is off in nearly every sentence.......

"Your bitterness is coming through again. I didn't allege that criminals have superior weaponry. They do have a lot of it, but usually of suspect quality. Armored vehicles aren't common, but occasionally they've been encountered. However, none of these are reasons to acquire a large-caliber weapons system to engage "them" at long range. The average LE marksman's shot is under 70 yards. Long range isn't even part of the math here. There is a possibility that in very rural environments it could become part of the equation, but I don't think any LE agency near me has any anti-materiel rifles. And no, I don't think MRAPS have any use outside of SWAT/Warrant raids, and a Lenco Bearcat is much more optimized. Standard grenade launchers are useless because of the civilian ROE encoded in law, although when the anarchist/occupy/EarthFirst crowd comes out a launcher with gas grenades is helpful. And when an old man is threatening to kill someone with a knife, a rubberized 40mm grenade does well at knocking him down. Anti-armor weaponry and 240B's are both completely useless for my purposes and a total liability."

Here is the problem with the above garbage....
In your previous post(s) you bitch about others making assumptions around the average range LE engages a threat, as it was the basis of the opposing argument that held a S/A 308 is not only inappropriate for such engagements but fucking idotic. There were very applicable reasons that followed that statement to explain why. You also made mention of K/E charts and that alone translating into a significant tactical advantage in favor of a 308 from a ballistics standpoint. WTF are you talking about! At that point I honestly hoped you were really just fucking with everyone, but im not sure thats the case. At the end of the day, you do nothing more than confirm those prior assumptions you strongly implied were false just a few posts before are indeed very accurate - as were all of the other assumptions. You then start to fuck with words and turn the statement "large caliber weapon systems" into "anti-material rifles". Where the fuck did that come from? The prior statement was clearly referring to the afore-mentioned 308, which would be a large caliber weapon system if taken in context of the conversation at hand and the .223 it was being compared to.

My suggestion was that no one is aware of exactly what the OP's department needs the tool for. If they're in a rural area, they may need to be able to hit something farther away than a standard AR-15 without an optic will work for. If they're in an urban area, the needs may be different. My point to Cobra was that there was no need to be an ass about it. Cobra is the type that makes everyone on here look bad, and look like a bunch of elitist snobs that aren't interested in adding to the "special club." As shooter's that's not what we need. We need more beginning shooters, and more gun owners, and more gun enthusiasts. Whether the OP is what he says he is or not, he's interested. Contrary to what some of you may think, that's good thing.

If you've actually read the entire thread, you'll see that Cobracutter brought up both extreme range and armored vehicles out of thin air.

Please show me where they have armored vehicles or are engaging in the type of combat and acts of violence, in numbers, that would require a semi-automatic large caliber weapon system to engage them at long range.

I assumed that he was referring to several departments (in Texas?) acquiring a Barrett rifle in .50 cal. Why that was done, I don't know. My point was that I agree that THAT does seem unnecessary. Ballistics, there's obviously an advantage and disadvantage in close quarters with a .308 opposed to a 5.56, given the ammunition that most are issued. It's not military ammunition, and it isn't match ammunition either. Which again, was one of Cobra's rants...the OP didn't appear to be asking about any purpose beyond a marksman's rifle. If you have a quibble with the .308 as a marksman's rifle, you can argue that with the myriad LE and military units that use them as such. There's a reason they do, and it's documented well enough that a simple google search will inform anyone.

"Standard grenade lauchers are useless" .......but wait.....40mm rubber projos are the shit. Well guess what Sherlock, it doesnt take much to pop in an M433 or an M406 and blow whatever you want to hell. But when we all have to listen to some appointed Chief ensure us that theyre only being used for riot control we should probably just sit back, relax and take your word for it, right?

Seriously? What are these weapons that the police have? I think you might be surprised to find that the most common one around here is an FN303 air-powered launcher that can't fire a standard grenade. So, yes, it would take a hell of a lot to pop in an M433. You'd kill yourself trying, too. Regardless, let's say I have an old M-79, or a new rotary M-32 launcher that COULD fire a live M433. I'd suggest that you'd be better suited arguing that we should ALL have access to those toys/tools, rather than arguing for restrictions. You're only feeding the monster. "If the police shouldn't have it, neither should you." I'd be in favor of repealing the 1934 NFA and 1968 GCA, OR at LEAST the '68 GCA. I have a hard time believing that you think that an entire major police department, which it may surprise you to know is composed of real human people very like you, is going to go along with firing HE grenades at you, Joe law-abiding U.S. Citizen. If that happens, it'll be because you've been framed by someone very powerful, and it won't be your local LE doing it. It'll be a Federal agency bringing in 400 agents to hit you before you know what's coming, and it'll be fueled by corruption. You can't win anyway then. The military and police in general have been, are, and will be on your side if someone tries to take your freedom. Try talking to some of them sometime. Just because you get a ticket for speeding now and then doesn't mean they're out to get you. If you're having problems like Ireland did lately, then you know you have a real problem, and making enough noise about it will still get you results. Even there, with the Garda compromised by criminals in uniforms, there are good cops who brought down the corrupt ones.

MRAPS, $10k PVS-27s, thermal, blah blah. Fuck that. You should be buying more ammo with that 3500 and getting guys to the god damn range instead of complianing about budget and your inability to conquer the almighty political machine lest you be..........laid off! Agghhhhhh! All normal shit here MN. Some skip the bitching and get to finding a solution. Some are content with tantrums and 99 excuses.

I'm not complaining. I'm well paid, although I can make a lot more elsewhere. Layoffs haven't been an issue for years. I don't need or want an MRAP to drive around in. I don't think anyone around here has a PVS-27, although I'd like to buy one personally just for fun. There are two military-loaned thermal imagers two agencies away...they've been used to find a few lost hikers and a few people hiding in fields. Not something we can afford, and not really important.

I'm not backpedaling here. I'm pointing out that you and your local LE probably have a lot in common. A large number of members here have better gear than the local LE will ever have. Vectronix? Night vision? .50's, .338 LM's, .408's? I'm opposed to local LE wasting money on excessive gear, like buying a .338LM and feeding it. I'm not opposed to them having good gear they need for what they do. SWAT raids on gang houses at 3-4 AM require some things the average officer doesn't need. All of this additional bullshit about other weapons and rogue police is Cobra's combination of the slippery slope fallacy and "parade of the imaginary horrors" fallacy. Slippery slope fallacy notwithstanding, this thread is/was simply about what rifle the OP should ask the agency to use. That's been thoroughly shot to shit.

 

[jasonfaz]

FML.

I suggest you stop holding your farts in. It's been scientifically proven that they travel up your spine and into your brain. Needless to say, we all know that's where shitty ideas come from.

Take note my friend...

 

[Cobracutter]

In one ear and out the other.

It is nice to watch the propaganda machine work however....Kinda like an episode of "how it's made".

 

[TacosGigante]

Hey Dave,

Not to turn this thread into a con law discussion (but isn't it already?) but the SCOTUS just ruled that the police generally need a warrant to search cell/smart phones. So that is a step in the right direction at least.

Cobra, Mksmn will never admit the unconstitutional police state. He is a part of the problem. He would have to admit things to himself he is not strong enough to handle. In America:

They feel up your wives and daughters to get on an airplane
They search and harrass you 50 miles from the border at unconstitutional checkpoints in the name of border patrol
They confiscate and search your iphones at will
They have stop and frisk policies in major cities
They have microphones on buses and street lights to spy on you
The NSA reads all your emails, phone calls, texts.
They have created a national police force (DHS)
The police have accepted military equipment and military training in exchange for federal control.
The police shoot your dog
They police shoot homeless campers and get away with it (NM)
The police stick their hands down your pants at traffic stops
The police have unconstitutional checkpoints for DUI that violate your 4th ammendment
The NDAA says they can arrest and imprison you forever if they declare you a terrorist
The police are training for martial law in major cities

This isn't America anymore. America is dead. MKSMN is part of the problem. They give him a paycheck and he lies to himself so he can play along.

 

[TacosGigante]

Why you gotta steal my sunshine?

Cobra, Mksmn will never admit the unconstitutional police state. He is a part of the problem. He would have to admit things to himself he is not strong enough to handle. In America:

They feel up your wives and daughters to get on an airplane
They search and harrass you 50 miles from the border at unconstitutional checkpoints in the name of border patrol
They confiscate and search your iphones at will
They have stop and frisk policies in major cities
They have microphones on buses and street lights to spy on you
The NSA reads all your emails, phone calls, texts.
They have created a national police force (DHS)
The police have accepted military equipment and military training in exchange for federal control.
The police shoot your dog
They police shoot homeless campers and get away with it (NM)
The police stick their hands down your pants at traffic stops
The police have unconstitutional checkpoints for DUI that violate your 4th ammendment
The NDAA says they can arrest and imprison you forever if they declare you a terrorist
The police are training for martial law in major cities

This isn't America anymore. America is dead. MKSMN is part of the problem. They give him a paycheck and he lies to himself so he can play along.

Police need a warrant to scan your house with FLIR as well. I am sure they never do that anymore do they?

 

[TacosGigante]

The warrant requirement isn't a falsehood, and while police militarization and the expansion of the police state is a serious concern, a unanimous court rejecting "police necessity" as a blank check is a positive sign. Positive enough? Is it all going to be alright? Probably not, but a good thing none the less because it indicates a willingness across the political spectrum to put aside the "be 'tough on crime' or else" line of thinking aside.

Basking in falsehoods isn't good for your skin.

 

[fdkay]

The cell phone ruling is a positive sign. So is the ruling that the "no fly list" is unconstitutional. But, as others point out, is it enough in time? I still have the border patrol circle my truck with dogs 60 miles from the border. They still demand to look inside my truck. I tell them "no" and they go crazy. TSA still unconstitutionally exists and violates the 4th amendment every single day. I could go on and on.

History tells us the criminals that run this country will simply ignore these rulings or find work arounds to do the same thing in a different way.

The constitution and rule of law mean nothing to them.

I hate the TSA as much or more than everyone else and I think the "Patriot Act" was an unconstitutional grab for power and should have been struck down long ago.
I am not making excuses, but will tell you that the TSA gets away with their searches because riding a commercial airplane is not a right and if you don't want to be subjected to the rape and plunder (TSA agents are notorious for sticky fingers), then don't fly anywhere.

 

[fdkay]

I have the right to not be finger fucked by an overweight middle aged ethnic woman just because I want to take a vacation. You are making excuses, its like saying if you don't wanna get robbed don't go to the ghetto or if you don't wanna get raped don't wear slutty clothes. I have the right to do anything I like and never ever be robbed raped or plundered.

You are a tool.
I specifically said I wasn't making excuses and then informed you of their mechanism for getting away with it. I never said I agreed with it.

And no, you do not have the "right to do anything you like to" because, your right to commit a certain act stops at someone elses right not to be subjected to your action.
You do not have a right to steal someones car because "you like it", you do not have the right to commit forcible rape against another because "you like it" and like it or not, you do not have a right to enter an airplane that you do not own because you want to.
Unfortunately, until the sheeple wise up and demand the defunding and removal of the TSA, we are stuck with them.
So right now, your option is to be finger fucked or drive. No one forces you to fly.

 

[call_me_ski]

I have had good luck with with the obr and mws I have owned. I think I liked the obr better. I had no need for the ability to change barrels easily and the obr seemed a little more refined out of the box. If you do get the mws the lm8 variant is definitely the ticket.

If you need a better value the new sig rifles seem to be worth investigation, the batch of the 716 dmr rifles i saw all had roughly .5 to .60 test targets. Some of the early guns had problems but the recent ones seem to be ready to work.

 

[fdkay]

It must be annoying when you run into people you cannot mace, billy club or shoot into compliance huh?

Am I annoyed? No. You only display your ignorance and it amuses me.

Who the hell carries mace? We use OC and no, I don't carry it, too much of a pain in the ass.
I haven't seen a billy club in about 15 years, I carry an expandable baton, only time I ever used it was to break a window for a medical emergency.
How do you shoot someone into compliance?
I have tasered folks into compliance though.

 

[FLIGHT762]

This thread is better than going to the Zoo and watching the Monkeys throw Shit on everyone. Thanks for the entertainment!!

 

[steppenwolf]

This thread is better than going to the Zoo and watching the Monkeys throw Shit on everyone. Thanks for the entertainment!!

I agree. But as far as the subject of the OP's initial question goes, LMT's 7.62 MRP MWS or LM8 is still the best choice. Not the cheapest, but it runs without issues.

 

[BCP]

There are plenty of cops making 27,000 a year with crappy benefit packages.

Maybe somewhere in the South, states that are really poor. Here in CA every cop is making bank. The hiring process is really fucked up though as are the attitudes, I'm genuinely worried what the police for will look like in 20-30 years.

 

[BCP]

RFA. That's wRong Fucking Answer for those in Rio Linda.

Armalite > JP LOL, where do you guys come up with this shit.

 

[DavidAR10]

Armalite > JP LOL, where do you guys come up with this shit.

Why can't you follow the quote tree?
______________________________________________________

Quote Originally Posted by Cobracutter View Post
What's the purpose of the rifle? Small budget and no mission means this is a nogo.

OBR MWS sr25 and the scar17 are the only ones durrable and proven enough for duty use.
I agree with^^^^^ but would also add the JPLRP 07.
Last edited by samnev; 06-24-2014 at 03:05 PM.
___________________________________________________

Flutter Kicks, Just Begin.

I'll tell you when I'm tired.

THEN, go speak with Kevin @ KAC before running your suck.

 

[BCP]

Why can't you follow the quote tree?
______________________________________________________

Quote Originally Posted by Cobracutter View Post
What's the purpose of the rifle? Small budget and no mission means this is a nogo.

OBR MWS sr25 and the scar17 are the only ones durrable and proven enough for duty use.
I agree with^^^^^ but would also add the JPLRP 07.
Last edited by samnev; 06-24-2014 at 03:05 PM.
___________________________________________________

Flutter Kicks, Just Begin.

I'll tell you when I'm tired.

You said 'wrong answer' to that guy and suggested Armalite. They make a good rifle but it's not on the same level as what JP or LMT produces. It's like when people suggest an M1A for a precision rifle because they're fans of it or they read that the military uses it.

If anything JP is the best rifle for this guy since they are target rifles first and foremost. That's assuming this guy really needs an AR in the first place, he probably doesn't and a bolt gun would be better.

 

[DavidAR10]

You said 'wrong answer' to that guy and suggested Armalite. They make a good rifle but it's not on the same level as what JP or LMT produces. It's like when people suggest an M1A for a precision rifle because they're fans of it or they read that the military uses it.

If anything JP is the best rifle for this guy since they are target rifles first and foremost. That's assuming this guy really needs an AR in the first place, he probably doesn't and a bolt gun would be better.

SH doesn't make a quote tree when someone hits the "reply with quote" button. Not your fault, not my fault and I understand what you think I was responding to.

cobracutter said:

"OBR MWS sr25 and the scar17 are the only ones durrable and proven enough for duty use."

samnev agreed to cobracutter's post and then added the JP to his list.

I was disagreeing with cc's list of the only durable and proven rifles list.

Again, ARMALITE was surveyed in the sandbox and received highly favorable reviews.
ARMALITE also kicked ass in the SASS trials.

I promise to be more clear in the future by fully quoting others before giving my reply.

I should have paid attention to what "reply with quote" actually placed in my reply box before
I start typing.

I apologize.

 

[Cobracutter]

SH doesn't make a quote tree when someone hits the "reply with quote" button. Not your fault, not my fault and I understand what you think I was responding to.

cobracutter said:

"OBR MWS sr25 and the scar17 are the only ones durrable and proven enough for duty use."

samnev agreed to cobracutter's post and then added the JP to his list.

I was disagreeing with cc's list of the only durable and proven rifles list.

Again, ARMALITE was surveyed in the sandbox and received highly favorable reviews.
ARMALITE also kicked ass in the SASS trials.

I promise to be more clear in the future by fully quoting others before giving my reply.

I should have paid attention to what "reply with quote" actually placed in my reply box before
I start typing.

I apologize.

Yea sure it did kid............

Maybe in your daddy's "sandbox'.

 

[hk dave]

There are plenty of cops making 27,000 a year with crappy benefit packages. They don't do the job for money, they do the job because that is what they want to do and yes, some do the job for other than ethical reasons.

Wow... poor guys. When I hear stories like this it makes me wonder how LAPD gets paid so much... lowest paid guy I know makes $90K... I'm pretty sure some guys I know have to be bringing in $150K.

I do constantly hear complaints about slow response time and a lack of cops out here. I wonder why that could be.

(Sorry... didn't mean to derail the thread... but when I read $27K a year... I was amazed and saddened)

 

[BCP]

Wow... poor guys. When I hear stories like this it makes me wonder how LAPD gets paid so much... lowest paid guy I know makes $90K... I'm pretty sure some guys I know have to be bringing in $150K.

Public employees unions own California politically and are milking it for all they can get. I could rant all day about it but that's why. Not pertinent for this thread though.

 

[fdkay]

(Sorry... didn't mean to derail the thread... but when I read $27K a year... I was amazed and saddened)

No worries Dave, thread was derailed long ago by attacks on the OP and others for asking questions.

My department does pay more than 27k a year, but there are numerous ones in the area that make that and sometimes less.
Hell, there is a small department within an hour from here, the chief of police makes 34k a year, and no, it isn't a one man department. (I think it's a 5 or 6 man department)

Now, when you to large metropolitan PD's, you have significantly higher wages, with bonus pay for special qualifications such as bilingual, education milestones etc...

 

[FLIGHT762]

Public employees unions own California politically and are milking it for all they can get. I could rant all day about it but that's why. Not pertinent for this thread though.

Since it isn't pertinent to this thread, The 27 years I spent on a tactical team, the nights I was pulled out of bed, first through the door when some a hole killed his significant other and wasn't coming out with out a fight, the 9" scar on my calf that I feel daily, the lifetime neck injury I deal with the other minor bumps in the road through all of the years, yeah, I got paid well, but I'd say the City I worked for got their money's worth out of me over the 28+ years I was with them.

I get a pension that you'd Bitch slap me into next week for, but I don't feel sorry for what I get and what I gave to get me there. I suppose It's all a mater of opinion, I guess.

 

[USMC_03XX]

In my opinion, and I understand that others may differ, expenditure of taxpayer funds should be preceded by a requirements determination.
How do you establish a $3500 budget without knowing what you need and what you need it for?
The OP says I need accuracy and a rifle that will stand up to handling. How accurate and how much handling?
Does the budget include optics? Do you need optics?
If I had $3500 to spend on an AR-10, I would buy one for $2500 and treat my squad mate to a night of hookers.

Budgets do not configure weapons, mission requirements do. Without a mission requirement, I agree with you and Cobra that this is a total waste of TAXPAYER money. Oh and by the way, Force Recon Scout Snipers dont need to know the ins and outs of the gun industry - the USMC acquisition guys in Quantico do and make sure the stuff that ends up in their hands is legit.