Recommendations on a 7.62x51 bolt action

[starscream]

I purchased my first bolt action rifle about a month ago (savage mark II fvxp) and now I'm hooked. I am looking for a bolt action i can actually hunt with unlike my .22lr. When my father passed away last year he left me with a large amount of 7.62x51. I know that 7.62 is similar to the .308, So Im stuck between buying a .308 or getting a 7.62 bolt action. Im having a very hard time finding a new 7.62 rifle anywhere, So if you guys can recommend a new or used bolt action in 7.62 that is reliable and easy to fix i would appreciate it. If you think i would be fine firing 7.62 out of a new .308 please let me know.
Thanks
-mike

 

[fdkay]

Re: Recommendations on a 7.62x51 bolt action

7.62 is dimensionally identical to .308.

It is loaded to lower pressure than .308, thus lower velocities.

Do not expect any accuracy from ball ammunition. If it is 7.62 match then that is a different story.

 

[former naval person]

Re: Recommendations on a 7.62x51 bolt action

Get a Savage or Stevens .308 W. You can upgrade it easily as you practice with the issue ammo...when you run out of that, then progress to reloading and you'll be hooked for life. JMHO

 

[bricktop]

Re: Recommendations on a 7.62x51 bolt action

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the pressures are nearly the same (At least in my experience velocities are nearly the same for factory 7.62x51 vs. similar weight commercial 308). The big difference is that a 7.62x51 chamber is a few thousandths longer than a normal 308 chamber for reliable feeding under adverse conditions. Use a 308 (H.S. around 1.631"-1.634") chamber for everyday shooting and long brass life. Use a 7.62 chamber for an M60 machine gun

. You'll have no problem shooting all that 7.62x51 in a 308 Win. gun.

 

[Oddball Six]

Re: Recommendations on a 7.62x51 bolt action

IF it were my money, get the 308. Most 7.62 is so dimensionally close to 308... and the 308 is spec'd for higher pressure.

Remember with 7.62 and 308, its the REVERSE of the common 223/5.56 misunderstanding.

308 can shoot 7.62. Its not neccessarily safe to shoot 308 in a 7.62.

fdkay also raises a good point. Most 7.62 is intended for a military or surplus market whose accuracy needs by and large tend to be less than what the enthusiast or law enforcement market looks for.

Make sure that your investment in 7.62 ammo is getting you something usable whose practice time is going to be worth the ammo expendature.

 

[head2h2o]

Re: Recommendations on a 7.62x51 bolt action

Rem 700 or Savage appear to be the standard answers are here, and for good reason.

 

[fdkay]

Re: Recommendations on a 7.62x51 bolt action

Look here:
http://www.303british.com/id36.html

From accurate shooter:

The SAMMI/CIP maximum pressure for the .308 Win cartridge is 62,000 psi, while the 7.62x51 max is 50,000 psi. Also, the headspace is slightly different. The .308 Win "Go Gauge" is 1.630" vs. 1.635" for the 7.62x51. The .308's "No-Go" dimension is 1.634" vs. 1.6405" for a 7.62x51 "No Go" gauge. That said, it is normally fine to shoot quality 7.62x51 NATO ammo in a gun chambered for the .308 Winchester (though not all NATO ammo is identical). Clint McKee of Fulton Armory notes: "[N]obody makes 7.62mm (NATO) ammo that isn't to the .308 'headspace' dimension spec. So 7.62mm ammo fits nicely into .308 chambers, as a rule." You CAN encounter problems going the other way, however. A commercial .308 Win round can exceed the max rated pressure for the 7.62x51.

 

[1fstTA]

Re: Recommendations on a 7.62x51 bolt action

depends on what kind of funds your wanting to fork out also

 

[starscream]

Re: Recommendations on a 7.62x51 bolt action

thank you guys for all the help I think ill go with a savage stevens 200 in .308.

 

[Emouse]

Re: Recommendations on a 7.62x51 bolt action

so my 7.62 x 51 NATO AIAW is going to blow up using commercial .308?

I think not.

 

[tylerw02]

Re: Recommendations on a 7.62x51 bolt action

I would imagine your AIAW isn't really speced for NATO pressure

Its probably labeled NATO because the intended market is military.

 

[skarpskyttern]

Re: Recommendations on a 7.62x51 bolt action

If you have the money, take a look at the Sauer 200 str with a mcmillan stock! you cant beat it!

 

[CleanMoostang]

Re: Recommendations on a 7.62x51 bolt action

Money no option? Tac50? TRG42? Hook a nikkuh up! Whats your bank gonna stop at?

 

[Austincqc]

Re: Recommendations on a 7.62x51 bolt action

Sorry to hear about your Dad.

I bought a Savage 10 Precision Carbine for under $600 (normal prices are around 650-700). It's light but still has a heavy barrel, tactical bolt knob, detachable magazine and a free floated barrel. Throw on a 20moa base and your choice of scope, BAM! You have a rifle that will hit consistently out as far as you can shoot. I can hit steel at 250, 500 and 750 easily...haven't shot to a grand yet, but that's the next step.

Dollar for dollar, you really can't beat it. Remington's have a lot of options, but Savages have been treating me very well. Off the shelf sub-moa accuracy for under $700 is hard to beat.

 

[VKC]

Re: Recommendations on a 7.62x51 bolt action

hope you enjoy your savage, 7.62NATO should shoot fine in a 308win.

 

[Emouse]

Re: Recommendations on a 7.62x51 bolt action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would imagine your AIAW isn't really speced for NATO pressure

Its probably labeled NATO because the intended market is military. </div></div>

Erm,..what are you smoking friend? AIAW's have to pass proof testing and are marked accordingly. They are proofed and stamped at the proof house after test and are 7.62 x 51 marked.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Recommendations on a 7.62x51 bolt action

emouse,as I'm sure you know the UK proof requirements are a lot different to those in the US.

I have imported a couple of rifles for personal use from the US and know that, as the US is not a CIP member state, I cannot sell them on in the UK unless I get them reproofed by a UK Proof House.

I've heard that the US procedure is very "relaxed" compared to UK (CIP) proof and standards vary widely (simple function test is sufficient, no pressure test?)....hence the comment on the AW??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commis...nte_pour_l'Epreuve_des_Armes_à_Feu_Portatives

 

[tylerw02]

Re: Recommendations on a 7.62x51 bolt action

.308 Winchester has MORE pressure than NATO ammo. Its probably built to take the greater pressure produced by commercial ammo.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Recommendations on a 7.62x51 bolt action

tyler, as far as I know part of the UK proof procedure is to fire a test round that is normally between 25% and 50% over pressure to test the integrity of the rifle.

Yes, a 25% uplift over .308 pressures should more than deal with a 7.62 NATO rifle....but not vice versa.

Not sure if the UK proof guys test each chambering individually or take the ".308WIN fits all" approach.

emouse?

 

[tylerw02]

Re: Recommendations on a 7.62x51 bolt action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">tyler, as far as I know part of the UK proof procedure is to fire a test round that is normally between 25% and 50% over pressure to test the integrity of the rifle.</div></div>

.308 is max pressure of 62,000 while 7.62 NATO is 50,000. If the AI is proof-tested to 125-150% pressure, it is tested to a minimum of 62,500 (125% of 50,000).

Here's what Accurate Shooter has to say:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.308 Win vs. 7.62×51–The Straight Scoop
Before we go much further, we want to address the oft-posed question “Are the .308 Winchester and 7.62×51 NATO one and the same?” The simple answer is no. There are differences in chamber specs and maximum pressures. The SAMMI/CIP maximum pressure for the .308 Win cartridge is 62,000 psi, while the 7.62×51 max is 50,000 psi. Also, the headspace is slightly different. The .308 Win “Go Gauge” is 1.630&#8243; vs. 1.635&#8243; for the 7.62×51. The .308&#8242;s “No-Go” dimension is 1.634&#8243; vs. 1.6405&#8243; for a 7.62×51 “No Go” gauge. That said, it is normally fine to shoot quality 7.62×51 NATO ammo in a gun chambered for the .308 Winchester (though not all NATO ammo is identical). Clint McKee of Fulton Armory notes: “[N]obody makes 7.62mm (NATO) ammo that isn’t to the .308 ‘headspace’ dimension spec. So 7.62mm ammo fits nicely into .308 chambers, as a rule.” You CAN encounter problems going the other way, however. A commercial .308 Win round can exceed the max rated pressure for the 7.62×51. So, you should avoid putting full-power .308 Win rounds into military surplus rifles that have been designed for 50,000 psi max. For more information on this interesting topic, read the following articles: Gun Zone’s 30 Caliber FAQ; Cruffler.com Technical Trivia, June 2001; and last, but not least, Steve Redgwell’s .308 vs 7.62×51 Analysis, which really provides a definitive explanation. Reloaders should also note that military ammo often is made with a thicker web. Consequently the case capacity of 7.62×51 brass is usually less than that of commercial .308 brass. You may need to reduce recommended .308 Winchester loads by as much as 2 full grains, if you reload with military 7.62×51 brass, such as Lake City or IMI.</div></div>

Either way, the OP can get by just fine with a .308 shooting NATO ammo.

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Recommendations on a 7.62x51 bolt action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">tyler, as far as I know part of the UK proof procedure is to fire a test round that is normally between 25% and 50% over pressure to test the integrity of the rifle.</div></div>

.308 is max pressure of 62,000 while 7.62 NATO is 50,000. If the AI is proof-tested to 125-150% pressure, it is tested to a minimum of 62,500 (125% of 50,000).
</div></div>

tyler - thanks, I know the maths.

The example you quote above is correct for a NATO chambering tested to +25% over-pressure.

What it would not satisfy is a UK proof test for a .308 WIN chambering which would need to withstand a minimum of 77500psi

So hence my comment that whilst a .308 proof test works both ways, the NATO test doesn't.

And my request to emouse as to whether he knows if UK proof houses run a generic test for all 308/7.62 firearms based on the higher pressures....or test for each chambering individually. That's something I don't know.

If the latter is the case, a UK proofed 7.62 proofed rifle would not have been tested for the higher pressures and so may theoretically not be safe for the hotter loads. Although in the case of AI, I am sure this is not an issue.

I assume your comment on AW's is based on US proof tests/markings?

What are the US proof procedures? Is it just up to the maker/gunsmith to ream the chamber and mark it up on the barrel or do they also run a full function, pressure and metallurgy test?

 

[7.62gunr]

Re: Recommendations on a 7.62x51 bolt action

If 7.62X51 has all the way down at 50,000psi(it's actually rated in CUP NOT psi)it wouldn't launch a 147 grain M80 projo at 2,750 FPS.
The M24 is also completely compatible with M80 ball(duh)and shoots "hot" 175 grain SMK at shy of 2,700 FPS.
Quite being so stupid people.....7.62 has a thicker web and holds slightly less powder but means little in the end.
If you have shot and used a chrono you know better. I have shot surp 7.62 that was certainly hotter than commercial spec 150 grain.
BH 175gr OTM: weight = 380.5gr, velocity = 2691fps
M118LR: weight = 402gr, velocity = 2687.5fps

 

[winxp_man]

Re: Recommendations on a 7.62x51 bolt action

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">tyler, as far as I know part of the UK proof procedure is to fire a test round that is normally between 25% and 50% over pressure to test the integrity of the rifle.</div></div>

.308 is max pressure of 62,000 while 7.62 NATO is 50,000. If the AI is proof-tested to 125-150% pressure, it is tested to a minimum of 62,500 (125% of 50,000).

Here's what Accurate Shooter has to say:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.308 Win vs. 7.62×51–The Straight Scoop
Before we go much further, we want to address the oft-posed question “Are the .308 Winchester and 7.62×51 NATO one and the same?” The simple answer is no. There are differences in chamber specs and maximum pressures. The SAMMI/CIP maximum pressure for the .308 Win cartridge is 62,000 psi, while the 7.62×51 max is 50,000 psi. Also, the headspace is slightly different. The .308 Win “Go Gauge” is 1.630&#8243; vs. 1.635&#8243; for the 7.62×51. The .308&#8242;s “No-Go” dimension is 1.634&#8243; vs. 1.6405&#8243; for a 7.62×51 “No Go” gauge. That said, it is normally fine to shoot quality 7.62×51 NATO ammo in a gun chambered for the .308 Winchester (though not all NATO ammo is identical). Clint McKee of Fulton Armory notes: “[N]obody makes 7.62mm (NATO) ammo that isn’t to the .308 ‘headspace’ dimension spec. So 7.62mm ammo fits nicely into .308 chambers, as a rule.” You CAN encounter problems going the other way, however. A commercial .308 Win round can exceed the max rated pressure for the 7.62×51. So, you should avoid putting full-power .308 Win rounds into military surplus rifles that have been designed for 50,000 psi max. For more information on this interesting topic, read the following articles: Gun Zone’s 30 Caliber FAQ; Cruffler.com Technical Trivia, June 2001; and last, but not least, Steve Redgwell’s .308 vs 7.62×51 Analysis, which really provides a definitive explanation. Reloaders should also note that military ammo often is made with a thicker web. Consequently the case capacity of 7.62×51 brass is usually less than that of commercial .308 brass. You may need to reduce recommended .308 Winchester loads by as much as 2 full grains, if you reload with military 7.62×51 brass, such as Lake City or IMI.</div></div>

Either way, the OP can get by just fine with a .308 shooting NATO ammo. </div></div>


+1 shooting NATO in .308 chambers is fine. I shot quite a few NATO round through my stock Remington SPS .308 and it was fine. Not one issue to worry about. Also here is some nice PSI and CUP info. http://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf



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