Red Dot Pistol Question.

[Random One]

I'm wanting to retro fit my Ruger Security Nine with a red dot but doing so means removing the rear sight and installing a mounting plate.

So I'd like advice from experienced red dot users about how important it is to retain the rear sight and be able to co-witness. I realize that if the red dot goes down, I'm only left with a pretty crude point n shoot firearm.

This is my EDC and I'd like to get back to some IDPA also.

TIA for input.

 

[308Gunner]

I have a 365X and I love it, 50 year old eyes. Mine is for EDC period, with the prices in some of the newer pistols with red dots I would just buy another one for EDC. I have tried in the past to have a pistol that does everything, in the end it will be lacking just like a precision rifle. Buy or build the correct tool and you will be happier in the end.

 

[AngryKoala]

I'm wanting to retro fit my Ruger Security Nine with a red dot but doing so means removing the rear sight and installing a mounting plate.

So I'd like advice from experienced red dot users about how important it is to retain the rear sight and be able to co-witness. I realize that if the red dot goes down, I'm only left with a pretty crude point n shoot firearm.

This is my EDC and I'd like to get back to some IDPA also.

TIA for input.

If using for EDC I wouldn't use a dot, if competing definitely use a dot...as suggested above get two and modify to the application.

 

[1moaoff]

With the new red dots more people are using them for EDC. Maybe build another and slowly transition and see for yourself? If you shoot it alot with the dot and front sight you can get pretty good through muscle memory. Getting good hits with just that is possible. Not preferred but possible

 

[AngryKoala]

With the new red dots more people are using them for EDC. Maybe build another and slowly transition and see for yourself? If you shoot it alot with the dot and front sight you can get pretty good through muscle memory. Getting good hits with just that is possible. Not preferred but possible

A dot that can fail is a scary concept for edc but if training as you suggest above then that would be a happy marriage. The newer (smaller dots) are less intrusive for carrying IWB.

 

[Random One]

Great input - thank you all.

Some sources says a red dot is better for EDC because you focus through the optic to the target - not try to focus on the front sight. This seems reasonable to me and my rationale for going red dot. But more training and practice to become proficient.

Plan B would be close to the idea by @1moaoff and would build around the Walther PDP Compact 4" and put a red dot on it. Then - either keep the Ruger or ?

 

[dscl]

Having just completed a Modern Samurai Project RDS class I'm convinced that Red Dot is the way for EDC. Yes it takes some practice, but it's worth it. If you're going to build something new the Walther PDP is an excellent choice.

 

[AngryKoala]

Great input - thank you all.

Some sources says a red dot is better for EDC because you focus through the optic to the target - not try to focus on the front sight. This seems reasonable to me and my rationale for going red dot. But more training and practice to become proficient.

Plan B would be close to the idea by @1moaoff and would build around the Walther PDP Compact 4" and put a red dot on it. Then - either keep the Ruger or ?

Just make sure you train with that dot off just in case it fails (unlikely). I have no doubt you can be quicker with a dot just don't become reliant on it as 1MOA suggested.

 

[gixxer822]

a rear isnt necessary. theres alternative methods of aim without the dot present using the bridge or center marker on the body of the dot. ive found within 10 yards to be perfectly acceptable.

 

[1moaoff]

A dot that can fail is a scary concept for edc but if training as you suggest above then that would be a happy marriage. The newer (smaller dots) are less intrusive for carrying IWB.

The RMR has a fantastic track record for reliability. Even for EDC I would trust it. Shooting a pistol with just a front sight and dot has been done for some time now.

I would 100% prefer to have irons also but I will also say I have run with just a RMR, RMR and irons, RMR and front sight. ( I am actually making it a point to start shooting more pistol this winter, my skills have degraded to a point where I am not happy after yrs of barely shooting them. I still hit my targets but it's a VERY perishable skill)

When I was shooting alot of pistol I would have been comfortable with all the options IF IT WAS THE PISTOL I SHOT ALL THE TIME AND ALOT.

And I may be in the minority but I have had irons fail. With pistol, repetition and muscle memory is your friend. Especially at realistic pistol engagement ranges.

A bit of extra not normally given info... I have fired my pistol in the line of duty when I was a cop in my late twenties. I was also able to spend a large amount of time with tactical trainers.

Something rarely discussed is after shooting evaluations of pistol engagements. They are challenging to direct especially within 25' more likely within 12' even more likely is 8'
One thing that comes up is no one really sees the sights, it's muscle memory the closer you are.

ETA: the window on a RMR can also function as a VERY very large ghost ring.

 

[theLBC]

i have suppressor height backup irons on mine, but tbh, the chances of rd failure is pretty low with newer optics.

 

[pmclaine]

People that train with rds train so that if it goes down at "reasonable" self defense ranges they can score hits using the frame of the sight.

Im very inexperienced with them but made a long post something titled like "RDS People why don't you have a seat right over here".

Look it up lots of mental masturbation on my part.

Based on that thread I went with a bigger dot than I first thought I wanted and I am happy I did so.

Since I have come to believe if you go "all in" on your dot you do not need co-witness sights.

It becomes a matter of training and muscle memory.

I am not there and likely never will be but I'm 100% liking my pistol with the rds.

 

[pmclaine]

Great input - thank you all.

Some sources says a red dot is better for EDC because you focus through the optic to the target - not try to focus on the front sight. This seems reasonable to me and my rationale for going red dot. But more training and practice to become proficient.

Plan B would be close to the idea by @1moaoff and would build around the Walther PDP Compact 4" and put a red dot on it. Then - either keep the Ruger or ?

I took a scenario class a week or two ago......

I hate to say it but if asked after the scenario "What was your sight picture like?" I would have replied "What sights?"

With my limited RDS experience in the first scenario I was immediately wishing I had my RDS pistol......of course that would have been a mess against the other guy with his simunition 320.

 

[tylerw02]

From experience, the dovetails are inadequate for mounting a red dot sight. One needs to have it milled for the Red dot or one of the plate systems.

 

[gnochi]

From experience, the dovetails are inadequate for mounting a red dot sight. One needs to have it milled for the Red dot or one of the plate systems.

I’m curious what failed how, because there are ways to properly engineer a dovetail interface to account for the recoil moments.

Separately, OP, there are a handful of RDS options that have a machined-in rear sight.

 

[tylerw02]

They work themselves loose over time. Its more mass than the dovetail was designed to hold. I believe Hilton Yam has seen the same thing if you follow10-8 performance.

 

[tylerw02]

Not many IDPA shooters in the US, to be honest. In the USA we shoot USPSA and there are two divisions that allow dots: open and carry optics. Carry optics is a growing division. It involves a gun that has a dot and is similar to an off-the-shelf gun with minimal modifications. No magwells.

 

[gnochi]

They work themselves loose over time. Its more mass than the dovetail was designed to hold. I believe Hilton Yam has seen the same thing if you follow10-8 performance.

One super simple thing that can be done with the dovetail mounts that push up, instead of pulling down, is to add a set screw behind and in front of the dovetail to push against the slide. The rocking is what causes issues, not the front-back load.

 

[AngryKoala]

The RMR has a fantastic track record for reliability. Even for EDC I would trust it. Shooting a pistol with just a front sight and dot has been done for some time now.

I would 100% prefer to have irons also but I will also say I have run with just a RMR, RMR and irons, RMR and front sight. ( I am actually making it a point to start shooting more pistol this winter, my skills have degraded to a point where I am not happy after yrs of barely shooting them. I still hit my targets but it's a VERY perishable skill)

When I was shooting alot of pistol I would have been comfortable with all the options IF IT WAS THE PISTOL I SHOT ALL THE TIME AND ALOT.

And I may be in the minority but I have had irons fail. With pistol, repetition and muscle memory is your friend. Especially at realistic pistol engagement ranges.

A bit of extra not normally given info... I have fired my pistol in the line of duty when I was a cop in my late twenties. I was also able to spend a large amount of time with tactical trainers.

Something rarely discussed is after shooting evaluations of pistol engagements. They are challenging to direct especially within 25' more likely within 12' even more likely is 8'
One thing that comes up is no one really sees the sights, it's muscle memory the closer you are.

ETA: the window on a RMR can also function as a VERY very large ghost ring.

Yes, I agree but any optic can fail (more than likely not an RMR or similar durable optic). I tried the front post training and wasn't a fan (probably didn't spend enough time doing it). I like co-witness personally but that's just my preference.

100% agree on the perishable skill. Just shooting less during the ammo craze this past year, you could tell a difference.

 

[Random One]

The plate that I would add to the Security Nine is by Galloway Precision and has a set screw to secure it in the dovetail - so should be adequate.

 

[1moaoff]

Yes, I agree but any optic can fail (more than likely not an RMR or similar durable optic). I tried the front post training and wasn't a fan (probably didn't spend enough time doing it). I like co-witness personally but that's just my preference.

100% agree on the perishable skill. Just shooting less during the ammo craze this past year, you could tell a difference.

RMR is the only one would trust for carry... there are others that are supposedly good but I like long track records for the last 10' of life

 

[gnochi]

The plate that I would add to the Security Nine is by Galloway Precision and has a set screw to secure it in the dovetail - so should be adequate.

For clarity, the set screw in only the dovetail is insufficient to handle the rocking. Additional set screws should be drilled and tapped in the adapter in front and behind to push against the slide and prevent the dovetail from wearing away.

 

[Yondering]

The plate that I would add to the Security Nine is by Galloway Precision and has a set screw to secure it in the dovetail - so should be adequate.

Dovetail plate mounts are crap for a carry gun, end of story, regardless whether they have set screws or not. It's just a weaker method of mounting that's only used to avoid the expense of doing it right. And some guns, like your Ruger, are just not good candidates for doing it right. Sorry, but that's the truth.

Personally my carry guns have red dots on them, and have for almost 10 years. All of those have co-witness irons too; anything that doesn't is purely a range toy for competitions or just blasting. But I would and have chosen to have only iron sights than to rely on a dovetail mount for a red dot; they're weak, they sit up high, and in most cases they don't have co-witness irons.

A red dot sight for a carry gun is one of those things that is worth doing right or not at all. A dovetail mount on a Security Nine is not "doing it right", even if you do spend the coin for a worthwhile red dot.

 

[pmclaine]

Here was my introduction if its any help.....

Sidearms & Scatterguns - RDS Pistol people, why dont you have a seat right over here......

Im Bi-curious..........thinking of adding a red dot sight to my iron sight inventory. Just bought this....I want to set it up for training, occasional CC use. RDS ready and I understand it will have the ability to mount Sig, Leupold and Trijicon products. Ive considered Sigs offerings...

www.snipershide.com

 

[elwarpo]

What I do is get a deltapoint pro, but the optional rear sight and add a tall suppressor height front site and you have backuo sights.

 

[308pirate]

Dovetail plate mounts are crap for a carry gun, end of story, regardless whether they have set screws or not. It's just a weaker method of mounting that's only used to avoid the expense of doing it right. And some guns, like your Ruger, are just not good candidates for doing it right. Sorry, but that's the truth.

Personally my carry guns have red dots on them, and have for almost 10 years. All of those have co-witness irons too; anything that doesn't is purely a range toy for competitions or just blasting. But I would and have chosen to have only iron sights than to rely on a dovetail mount for a red dot; they're weak, they sit up high, and in most cases they don't have co-witness irons.

A red dot sight for a carry gun is one of those things that is worth doing right or not at all. A dovetail mount on a Security Nine is not "doing it right", even if you do spend the coin for a worthwhile red dot.

Agree with all except the BUIS thing.

For concealed carry (defensive use only) I don't see them as necessary. I came to that conclusion after seeing how easy it is to make A zone hits at up to 10 yards, even on the move, while framing the target with the optic (and the dot turned off).

If I had to carry a pistol on duty, that's a different story and I would absolutely not carry an optics-equipped pistol without them.

 

[Gustav7]

And I may be in the minority but I have had irons fail. With pistol, repetition and muscle memory is your friend. Especially at realistic pistol engagement ranges.

Nah you're not in the minority with the irons. I've had more iron sight issues than I have RDS issues. I've had a rear sight shift and a target rear sight break in half. That all being said, I've shot 10x more rounds with irons than RDS, but still. Most of the videos and podcasts I've listened to with experienced instructors have said similar things. While RDS has more "things" to break on them, once torqued properly with the right screws, I just haven't heard of many issues.

Sage Dynamics also did a video with an SRO and DPP where the glass cracked all over and he could still find the dot and make hits at 10-15yds.

When I shoot USPSA, I'm not looking at no damn front site anyways, and you can guarantee in a self defense situation you're not taking your eyes off the target. So if you're going to be target focused anyways, might as well use a red dot lol.

 

[Wildfire1550]

Get an RMR and don’t look back