Ask them the color of the boathouse door at Hereford... lol
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Rifle Scopes Red dots on LPVOs? Explain
- Thread starter LRSHOOTER0311
- Start date
Ask them the color of the boathouse door at Hereford... lol
I agree. Hence why my opinion is get a lightweight 3-18(leupold, weighs about same as vortex 1-6/1-10) and have an offset red dot.
Food for thought- notice there’s an rmr offset on fixed 4x, Elcan 1/4, as well as the vcog.
How Special Operations Soldiers Setup Their AR-15's (Tactical Accessories) - Prepared Gun Owners
What’s the first thing that practically anyone does after they acquire an AR-15? They want to accessorize it! Today, there is a HUGE amount of products on the market. Scopes, red dots, lasers, grips, stocks, switches, gadgets, rails, and more … What do you actually need? What actually WORKS? And...
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This all sounds very similar to what I've been taught (by reasonably qualified people) about RDS+magnifier, or LPVO-only. You run around with the magnifier flipped aside, or the scope dialed to lowest setting. Because that works at short range, where if a threat comes out of nowhere, it will very time-sensitive.
If you must engage a distant threat NOW, then you will get by with the low/unmagnified view.
But most distant / precise threats are going to allow a few seconds, or more, to get settled, get a position, etc. so the extra second or two to twist a dial is not so much of a problem.
Two sight planes is the same thing. Train to snap up to a heads-up position to the RDS. More time for precision/distance: be lined up from RDS, get on the scope, which I also have heard is set to, if not the highest, a higher magnification so the switch makes sense.
To do the two sight planes well takes practice. I have... not done enough at all. Only have what others have said.
I have done quite enough night shooting to confirm the passive aiming works real, real well the higher you get. And offhand night stuff is going to be CLOSE range so an RDS is plenty for that. Top mounted RDS makes a lot of logical sense for these situations.
If you must engage a distant threat NOW, then you will get by with the low/unmagnified view.
But most distant / precise threats are going to allow a few seconds, or more, to get settled, get a position, etc. so the extra second or two to twist a dial is not so much of a problem.
Two sight planes is the same thing. Train to snap up to a heads-up position to the RDS. More time for precision/distance: be lined up from RDS, get on the scope, which I also have heard is set to, if not the highest, a higher magnification so the switch makes sense.
To do the two sight planes well takes practice. I have... not done enough at all. Only have what others have said.
I have done quite enough night shooting to confirm the passive aiming works real, real well the higher you get. And offhand night stuff is going to be CLOSE range so an RDS is plenty for that. Top mounted RDS makes a lot of logical sense for these situations.
These types of articles are not good references. Please take all what/how/why special operations does XXXXXX articles with a massive grain of salt. Not that they are not trustworthy sources (although often times they are not), but usually the "lessons" are far removed from the majority's context (situation and timeframe).
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I agree. I chose this one specifically because said author has actually run this in competition settings successfully. Obviously some things will be different but the gist of it was there
If one is running an LPVO on 4x-6x all the time, and an offset red dot for CQB- then we are right back to 2008 when I used an 4x ACOG with offset red dot 
. The problem is off shoulder shooting. Shooting on the range, and never doing shoulder transitions- a 45 degree offset RD works pretty well. But start shooting off your left shoulder, from left corner cover and it starts to fall apart. Every CQB school I’ve been to is always heavy on shoulder transitions to maximize your cover. Running around with your rifle canted all the time will get old quick also. I think if you absolutely have to run both, I’d use an “inline” solution such as a top mounted RD on a scope ring cap. With the newer “high” mounted RDs, it’s showing in practice that the height over bore thing isn’t as big of an issue as it was made out to be.
. The problem is off shoulder shooting. Shooting on the range, and never doing shoulder transitions- a 45 degree offset RD works pretty well. But start shooting off your left shoulder, from left corner cover and it starts to fall apart. Every CQB school I’ve been to is always heavy on shoulder transitions to maximize your cover. Running around with your rifle canted all the time will get old quick also. I think if you absolutely have to run both, I’d use an “inline” solution such as a top mounted RD on a scope ring cap. With the newer “high” mounted RDs, it’s showing in practice that the height over bore thing isn’t as big of an issue as it was made out to be.If one is running an LPVO on 4x-6x all the time, and an offset red dot for CQB- then we are right back to 2008 when I used an 4x ACOG with offset red dot
You should try shooting strong shoulder with a 45 degree dot around a weak hand corner some time. The 45 degree dot enables to you do a pretty hard lean that can keep most of your body covered during a pie to the weak hand side. This is something i learned from watching USPSA pcc shooters with 2 red dots mounted, one inline and one offset.
Totally agree with statement about the acog.
If one is running an LPVO on 4x-6x all the time, and an offset red dot for CQB- then we are right back to 2008 when I used an 4x ACOG with offset red dot
Might as well dig the double leg strap holster back out then...
No way are you using cover worth a damn leaning out strong shoulder, head on the left side of the stock. Faster? I’m sure it is. 2 red dots on one rifle? Jesus. I’ve seen plenty of fast and dangerous shit in USPSA and 3 gun. Like guys leaning out over the fault line so far they loose their balance. But hey, they got hits fast right? Good luck in actual CQB falling all over yourself. I’m as hard core of a competitor as anybody, and I’ve done a lot of stuff trying to win a match that would get me killed quick if the cardboard was shooting back. But 3 gun and USPSA ain’t combat, it’s a game- one that I personally like to play. A lot of the “gunfighting” innovations come from the Comp world first. Just not all of it works in the real world, as long as you can separate “this will move me up from A class to master” from “this will actually work while clearing a house,” then I’ve got no problems gaming it up.
I have my limits- the 2 strap ain’t coming back
. Hell I barely like the 1 strap, but I hate the belt mounts even worse I wish the ACOGs were cheaper now that no one wants them anymore.
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In relation to the above- I was ROing a stage once, had a guy lean out so far over a fault line, he lost his balance, continued firing on the way to the ground, I called an all stop cease fire. He then argued with me that he didn’t fire any shots “touching the ground” outside the fault line. I’m sorry but firing while you are in mid stumble with no body control is not safe gun handling. I still shake my head over that one.
No way are you using cover worth a damn leaning out strong shoulder, head on the left side of the stock. Faster? I’m sure it is. 2 red dots on one rifle? Jesus. I’ve seen plenty of fast and dangerous shit in USPSA and 3 gun. Like guys leaning out over the fault line so far they loose their balance. But hey, they got hits fast right? Good luck in actual CQB falling all over yourself. I’m as hard core of a competitor as anybody, and I’ve done a lot of stuff trying to win a match that would get me killed quick if the cardboard was shooting back. But 3 gun and USPSA ain’t combat, it’s a game- one that I personally like to play. A lot of the “gunfighting” innovations come from the Comp world first. Just not all of it works in the real world, as long as you can separate “this will move me up from A class to master” from “this will actually work while clearing a house,” then I’ve got no problems gaming it up.
I have my limits- the 2 strap ain’t coming back
The point isn't that he has 2 red dots on one rifle, it's that he uses his offset red dot for fault lines that involve a weak-side lean... if you are in a competitive situation that involves a fault line that requires a hard weak hand lean and offset dot assists you, it translates over to maintaining a concealment advantage during a pie over not having that offset red dot. If you can't make concealment work with an offset red dot on a weak side pie, you're probably doing your strong side pies wrong too.
There should not be a significant difference in concealment between strong side with offset red dot and switching shoulders.
I've found that most people that advocate switching shoulders aren't really that good at it. Most decent shooters can fire their first well aimed round from starting position: eyes just over sights within .3 seconds. Most of those decent shooters will struggle to pick up their sights when firing with their weak hand from their weak shoulder.
As most buildings people are training to fight in and around are constructed with drywall interiors... Even if the switching hands technique saves you a few square inches of concealment (and I don't think it does), if it's between being able to get your shot off in .3 vs .5... I'll take the speed.
Sounds like it either wasn't USPSA, or you misunderstood the rules of the game. The whole point of uniform rules is to prevent people from applying bubba-isms. Body control isn't an element in deliberately choosing when to break your shot. There is 100% nothing wrong with choosing to break the shot in a compromised position as long as it's deliberate and not negligent.
If we want to extend this to "COMBBBBATTT", if your gun is pointed on target (sights or no sights) and there is nothing in between you and the target, and of concern behind the target, and there is no collateral/friendly concern, you are expected to take the shot
EDIT: want to add that the offset red dot for a weak side lean also places your sights vertical to the bore to prevent striking door frames in situations where your sights are on target but your muzzle is not clear of the cover/concealment. Not a big pro, but a pro nonetheless.
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So you’re cool with people firing shots while they are stumbling, falling down? Not on any range I want to be on.
If it's aimed, deliberate, and not in violation with our four universal rules of firearm safety, then yes, 100% I am okay with that.
Likewise I would not want to train on a range that misunderstands the rules of a sanctioned competition while simultaneously reprimanding good habits.
With this setup the LPVO is the primary optic, which you would use even at 1x if feasible. The red dot is a backup you switch to if you are already at magnification on the LPVO and something close surprises you and you need 1x fast. In that case it is much faster to transition to the backup red dot than it is to try to change the magnification on the LPVO to respond to the near threat.
Additionally, sighting around corners on your offhand side is much easier with a canted red dot than it is with your weak eye and the LPVO.
Additionally, sighting around corners on your offhand side is much easier with a canted red dot than it is with your weak eye and the LPVO.
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^^^This
I can get on a single target quicker through the LVPO, IF it’s already set to 1x. Moving and surprise targets, the 6.5 MOA RMR wins.
I run my LPVO at 6x so I can have both a no mag and a high mag option immediately available with the RMR on a 45° mount. If I'm going inside & have the ability, I'll crank the scope down to 1x. On a barricade I'll dial it to whatever I need to cover my area of responsibility most efficiently & periodically dial up to get more depth into widows, open doors, etc.
As to why not a 2.5 or 3x low end, those scopes are larger & heavier and I have to draw the line somewhere on a 10lb suppressed SBR. As it is, my K16i & mount adds about a pound & a quarter over an T1.
As to why not a 2.5 or 3x low end, those scopes are larger & heavier and I have to draw the line somewhere on a 10lb suppressed SBR. As it is, my K16i & mount adds about a pound & a quarter over an T1.
I know I'm late to the thread, and it's been about a year, but I was wondering: Any updates on if this ideal scope exists? I've been running a 1-8x Primary Arms Raptor FFP with an offset holosun (100% chinesium I know; I'm a poor grad student). I like it, but the 1x seems pretty pointless since I have the dot.
Some scope company (Dmitri at Primary Arms, please hear me out!) should make a 2 or 3-8x with a kickass reticle like the ACSS Raptor, that weighs like 18oz or less, and is FFP. Also, a big benefit to this is it should be cheaper not having to manufacture the scope with 1x, right? Like, all things being equal a 3-8x FFP scope should be cheaper than a 1-8x with similar glass quality, right? I'd happily save $150 or something and give up the 1-2x, since I'm already running an offset dot. This seems like a gap in the scope market right now.
A side note: my Primary Arms 1-8x Raptor is I guess kinda already like this, since the low end of the magnification is really like 1.5x, haha.
I can't think of single thing that increased my personal capability more than piggybacking a red dot on top of my LPVO. The question is asked why not run a 2-10 instead? The answer is....find me a small light FFP 2-10 that's worthy and I will. If you think running a red dot is an admission that your LPVO is slower, you are right. An LPVO (even my wonderful K18i) is absolutely slower and anyone that tells you otherwise only shoots KNOWN scenarios. Throw a curve ball in from time to time and RDS/Reflex/Holo pulls away from the LPVO in the speed department. I thought mounting a red dot up top would be used sparingly, turns out, it's the breadwinner and the LPVO in a lower mount only gets used for mid to far engagements and I have a much better cheekweld because of it.
It depends what your definition of worthy is.
The 2-10x36 Credo, NXS 2.5-10x32, Helos BTR 2-12x42 and PST 2.5-10x32, VX6 2-12x42 all weigh under 23oz which is heavier than the lighest LVPOs but in the ball park of many 1-8/1-10 scopes.
Unfortunately other than the Helos BTR G2 all those scopes are pretty old tech now and miss the mark in one way or another, be it turrets, SFP, Illumination or reticle.
The whole MPVO world is in a death spiral where people don't buy them so manufactures don't improve/make them, it repeats till death.
Very recent acog and offset convert. I love it. Super fast and easy with no dicking around with dials or throw levers. My offset is a chinadot in a cobbled mount and I love it anyway. Will be upgrading to t2 and probably an arisaka. I'm in thick brush a lot so in a lot of ways the dot is my primary and the acog my secondary for when I want a closer look at something. I know the guys that have been running this setup for 10 years are like yeah duh but I'm amazed how natural the setup is.
Not yet.
I’m running the mentioned 1-6 SWFA and have been loving it. For what its used for, a 12.5” 5.56 with a 1.93” mount, its perfect. Still might add a Holosun 509T at some point for testing though. But my up time with optic compared to a friends EoTech XPS 2 is pretty similar.
Are you talking about something like going from outside where the lpvo is higher than 1x and entering a building where you leave the lpvo magnified and just use the dot? I have a 1-8 ATACR and have yet to want an rds on it other than for passive NV aiming. But like you said, I know where/what the targets are.
Did you come to this conclusion under FOF training?
on back order everywhere, but i have notifications in place if i don't get something else.
i do like the light weight of the scalarworks, leveling screw and the qd system, because i will be using different optics.
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