Redding die problem, can I salvage the brass?

[TxWelder35]

To preface I am a complete reloading noob, these are my first rounds I've tried to reload.

Got a redding competition die set used put the FL sizer on my new Lyman 8 station turret press, sprayed everything down with hornady one shot, and started going to town on my once fired 260 rem lapua brass. FL sizer was installed by running ram all the way to the top, screwing die down til it contacted the shell holder, then backed it off a 1/4 turn.

Noticed after I did about 60 pieces of brass that the shoulders were getting bumped back way to far, like 50 thou too far. Also I have a .289 neck bushing die installed that was sizing to tight I can't remember exact measurements but I was getting around 15 thou of neck tension.

Switched over a regular ol RCBS FL sizer and got much better results, bumping shoulder back 2 thou and sizing neck properly.

Did I do something wrong? Can the brass be saved? Is it safe to load them up and shoot them?

 

[Praeger]

In my view, the key to consistent results in reloading is keeping track of measurements and understand the variables. To start with, any die instructions that say "screw down the die until it bottoms out, then back off a 1/4 turn" is just a ballpark starting place. Get a good caliper micrometer and set of comparator gauges. Measure your fired brass cartridge base to shoulder. Take your Redding FL sizer and start long, and keep measuring and screwing the die in press until you get to your desired cartridge base to shoulder. Set the locking ring and you should be getting consistent brass. Best practice is to bump back only as much as necessary, one or two thousandths is all you need. Remember to decap before measuring and watch for burrs that would throw off a measurement.

For neck tension, 15 thou is too much - way too much. Seat a bullet and measure the diameter of the neck. Subtract .002 - .003", buy that bushing.

Is your ammo safe to shoot? Probably if the powder charge is safe. Your ES and SD will likely be poor, but you can salvage the brass in most cases if it's only been over-worked once.

 

[TxWelder35]

In my view, the key to consistent results in reloading is keeping track of measurements and understand the variables. To start with, any die instructions that say "screw down the die until it bottoms out, then back off a 1/4 turn" is just a ballpark starting place. Get a good caliper micrometer and set of comparator gauges. Measure your fired brass cartridge base to shoulder. Take your Redding FL sizer and start long, and keep measuring and screwing the die in press until you get to your desired cartridge base to shoulder. Set the locking ring and you should be getting consistent brass. Best practice is to bump back only as much as necessary, one or two thousandths is all you need. Remember to decap before measuring and watch for burrs that would throw off a measurement.

For neck tension, 15 thou is too much - way too much. Seat a bullet and measure the diameter of the neck. Subtract .002 - .003", buy that bushing.

Is your ammo safe to shoot? Probably if the powder charge is safe. Your ES and SD will likely be poor, but you can salvage the brass in most cases if it's only been over-worked once.

Yes I've realized I need to order a comparator Guage. Trying to get close with the just a regular pair of calipers is not going to work.

So for adjusting the die I would assume I need to unscrew it a little at a time until I get the desired shoulder bump correct?

 

[whatsupdoc]

Check your measurements, I did not think it was possible to push the shoulder back .050 without a modified shell holder.

 

[TxWelder35]

Check your measurements, I did not think it was possible to push the shoulder back .050 without a modified shell holder.

I'll post a pic shortly. It's pretty obvious how worked the brass is

 

[Praeger]

Yes I've realized I need to order a comparator Guage. Trying to get close with the just a regular pair of calipers is not going to work.

So for adjusting the die I would assume I need to unscrew it a little at a time until I get the desired shoulder bump correct?

Yes, but start long (you can always continue to bump back the shoulder further) and screw in by 1/8 turn increments. Wait until you get a comparator gauge before you begin. Otherwise, you'll just be guessing.

 

[Srgt. Hulka]

Yes I've realized I need to order a comparator Guage. Trying to get close with the just a regular pair of calipers is not going to work.

So for adjusting the die I would assume I need to unscrew it a little at a time until I get the desired shoulder bump correct?

No, screw it out too much, then screw it in a little at a time til you get the correct shoulder bump.

 

[Milo 2.5]

For neck tension, 15 thou is too much - way too much. Seat a bullet and measure the diameter of the neck. Subtract .002 - .003", buy that bushing.

Is your ammo safe to shoot? Probably if the powder charge is safe. Your ES and SD will likely be poor, but you can salvage the brass in most cases if it's only been over-worked once.

Your first part was not bad advice, but if he was running a .289" bushing, no way he has 15 thou of neck tension. On firing brass that has been bumped 50 thou, if indeed he did manage that feat. he is going to want the bullet jammed hard into the lands. I doubt if it is bumped that much it will even fire, but if it does, case could come apart. If it was bumped .050", it needs to hit the recycle pile and find more brass.

OP, step back and get a grip on want is going on, get tools to measure this shit show before attempting to shoot these. I am not sure what all measurements you have taken, or how you did it, but check your caliper, something, esp the neck size numbers do not jive, Your caliper may be the culprit here ????

 

[Supersubes]

All of your numbers seem way out of whack. I own 30+ sizing dies and none of them will push a shoulder that much. Additionally, a .289 bushing is right there in the ballpark for what you’re doing. No way that should be .015 of neck tension. More like .002-.003. I have some whacked out Redding neck bushings, but they’re .001-.002 off from what they’re marked. Something is wrong with your measurements.

 

[TxWelder35]

Yes I know the caliper glass is broken, yes they read accurate. If I measure my bullets they are dead nuts. 264

 

[Milo 2.5]

Top pic, if the case on the right is sized, the neck is 30% longer than the fired case, something aint right.

 

[Milo 2.5]

^^^^^ You may have bumped the shoulder too much by pic, but it is not you, or your method, it is the die.

 

[918v]

That’s not an accurate way of measuring shoulder length

 

[918v]

Use a pistol case inverted over the shoulder

 

[TxWelder35]

Top pic, if the case on the right is sized, the neck is 30% longer than the fired case, something aint right.

Yes left is once fired right is sized

 

[TxWelder35]

That’s not an accurate way of measuring shoulder length

Yes I know it's not 100% accurate but it's close enough to see that it's bumped back way more than 2 thou. The neck doesnt even look right


So I'm assuming this brass is not salvageable? Is it possible I set the die up wrong? I didn't set it up any different than the rcbs die and everything came out fine on that one

 

[Snuby642]

You can not get a good measurement like that. You need to measure to the datum line. Ie a specific diameter on the shoulder normally in the middle of it.

You are looking at a 2 thousands bump and canot hold calipers consistently to that dimension strait.

Get the tool and probably toss that 50 thousands brass, lesson learned.

There are videos on about every mfg site to help as well as most reloading manuals have instructions.

Read up and stay safe.

 

[ShtrRdy]

If I may comment about the neck sizing bushing. A 0.289 Lapua .260 Rem brass should be close to where you want to be.

What is the neck diameter of a loaded round?
What is the neck diameter of a fired case?

 

[TxWelder35]

You can not get a good measurement like that. You need to measure to the datum line. Ie a specific diameter on the shoulder normally in the middle of it.

You are looking at a 2 thousands bump and canot hold calipers consistently to that dimension strait.

Get the tool and probably toss that 50 thousands brass, lesson learned.

There are videos on about every mfg site to help as well as most reloading manuals have instructions.

Read up and stay safe.

I set that die up exactly to the redding manual.

Set the rcbs up exactly to the manual also.

I understand that the measurement i have is not exact even down to 10 thou but you can see with the naked eye that shoulder was bumped way too far. I'm trying to figure out why it happened.

 

[TxWelder35]

If I may comment about the neck sizing bushing. A 0.289 Lapua .260 Rem brass should be close to where you want to be.

What is the neck diameter of a loaded round?
What is the neck diameter of a fired case?

Loaded round that I used rcbs die is .294

Brass used on redding die w/ .289 bushing
Outside neck is .284-.285
inside diameter is .254
Neck thickness is around .016-.017

Not sure why that bushing is sizing so much smaller. I double check to make sure it actually says .289

 

[Country]

Die movement for a 7/8x14 threaded die . You can see that 1/4 turn is a large amount.
About 22 times more than the average head clearance .
Your initial setup is all wrong . You size a small amount at a time until the shell fits back in the chamber with slight resistance to closing . Then turn the die down 1/16 of a turn , try the shell again and if it don't close easily , another 1/16 of a turn . That way you creep up on a minimum sizing fit without over sizing .
Then lock the die there and size the rest .

Turns​	Distance​
1/8​	.0089"​
1/4​	.0178"​
1/2​	.0357"​
1​	.0714"​
​ 1/16	.0045​

 

[TxWelder35]

Die movement for a 7/8x14 threaded die . You can see that 1/4 turn is a large amount.
About 22 times more than the average head clearance .
Your initial setup is all wrong . You size a small amount at a time until the shell fits back in the chamber with slight resistance to closing . Then turn the die down 1/16 of a turn , try the shell again and if it don't close easily , another 1/16 of a turn . That way you creep up on a minimum sizing fit without over sizing .
Then lock the die there and size the rest .

Turns​	Distance​
1/8​	.0089"​
1/4​	.0178"​
1/2​	.0357"​
1​	.0714"​
​ 1/16	.0045​

Very good info. Going to try this next time I'm at the bench

 

[Praeger]

Your first part was not bad advice, but if he was running a .289" bushing, no way he has 15 thou of neck tension. On firing brass that has been bumped 50 thou, if indeed he did manage that feat. he is going to want the bullet jammed hard into the lands. I doubt if it is bumped that much it will even fire, but if it does, case could come apart. If it was bumped .050", it needs to hit the recycle pile and find more brass.

Even if he did bump back 50 thou, why it would cause the bullet to be seated in the lands? As to the case coming apart, I don't think so. Fire forming to a wildcat cartridge is common and does not render the brass unsafe (of course, when using the appropriately sized parent case). Clearly the OP needs the proper set of measuring tools. Judging from the photo he posted of the side by side - before and after, something is wrong.

@TxWelder35 Solid advise being given. @Snuby642 is spot on, for the tolerances we're talking about you need to measure from a datum line (usually mid shoulder) to get precise measurements, that's the comparator gauge (.400 insert for 260). It's certainly possible the Redding die is defective, I've just never seen a die so far off as to produce what's pictured in your side by side photo.

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

I 100% agree that you need to get the tools to enable you to determine what you’re actually seeing.

I’ve NEVER seen a die that would push a shoulder .05” PLUS being backed out a bit. If you have the ability, and a seating die such as a Redding or Forster, take the die apart and use the sliding sleeve as a case gauge, that will allow you to measure shoulder bump within .002ish using your calipers.

You can also “smoke the shoulder” of a fired case, using a lighter. Size a fired case, progressively running the die down until you see the die make contact with the shoulder. (Clean your die after doing this)

In a bolt gun, I use anything with a matching shoulder angle to measure the headspace dimension of several fired cases... usually the sleeve of my seating die. Bump .001” - .002”

 

[flyright]

Something is very wrong between those cases. Shoulder shape is completely different - like, a different cartridge. Or, is it just me or possibly the pic?

 

[Srgt. Hulka]

I set that die up exactly to the redding manual.

Set the rcbs up exactly to the manual also.

I understand that the measurement i have is not exact even down to 10 thou but you can see with the naked eye that shoulder was bumped way too far. I'm trying to figure out why it happened.

^^^^^ You may have bumped the shoulder too much by pic, but it is not you, or your method, it is the die.

This. ^^^

I don’t think I could get my die to make that big of a change, even if I wanted to. I’d contact Redding and see what they say. You may also mention that you’ve ruined $60 worth of brass.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Even if he did bump back 50 thou, why it would cause the bullet to be seated in the lands? As to the case coming apart, I don't think so. Fire forming to a wildcat cartridge is common and does not render the brass unsafe (of course, when using the appropriately sized parent case). Clearly the OP needs the proper set of measuring tools. Judging from the photo he posted of the side by side - before and after, something is wrong.

First, I said if he was going to fire the cases, he may need to jam the bullet if he expects it to go off.
I take it you have never fireformed cases or blown shoulders forward. MOst either put a false shoulder on the brass, or rely on a heavy jam.

 

[Praeger]

First, I said if he was going to fire the cases, he may need to jam the bullet if he expects it to go off.
I take it you have never fireformed cases or blown shoulders forward. MOst either put a false shoulder on the brass, or rely on a heavy jam.

When you say, "if he expects it to go off", I take that is it wouldn't fire if the bullet wasn't jammed in the lands. I'm asking the question, not challenging you, why would he need to jam the bullet for it to fire?

No, I haven't fire formed cases, but there are several guys I compete with who do and we've discussed it in detail. They get clean fire formed cases after one firing. From what I've read, it seems like a common practice. No mention of jamming the bullet in the lands. In fact, I've read articles on using hydro forming, no bullet (cream of wheat), and even compressed air (Sam Millard - Panhandle Precision http://panhandleprecision.com/260-terminator-initial-review/).

 

[Milo 2.5]

When you say, "if he expects it to go off", I take that is it wouldn't fire if the bullet was jammed in the lands. I'm asking the question, why would he need to jam the bullet for it to fire?

No, I haven't fire formed cases, but do have several guys I compete with who do and we've discussed it in detail. They get clean fire formed cases after one firing. From what I've read, it seems like a common practice. No mention of jamming the bullet in the lands. In fact, I've read articles on using hydro forming, no bullet (cream of wheat), and even compressed air (Sam Millard - Panhandle Precision http://panhandleprecision.com/260-terminator-initial-review/).

First is excessive headspace, when the firing pin hits the primer the case is pushed forward, with only the fit of your extractor now supporting the case, and it may not ignite. If it does fire without support from the front, you have just stretched the shit out of the case in all the wrong areas, and case head separation is imminent.
You'd have to fill me in on what cases your friends are fireforming w/o support. Not too many people FF cases just by seating a bullet and pulling the trigger, and is a good way to have cases(even new) come apart on firing.
Hydro form, cream of wheat, the air thing, you still need to FF cases to define shoulder angle, they help in the other aspects of getting the job done though, but there will always be a certain portion of energy generated that will do this. I'd ask your friends if indeed they are not jamming a bullet.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Yes I know it's not 100% accurate but it's close enough to see that it's bumped back way more than 2 thou. The neck doesnt even look right


So I'm assuming this brass is not salvageable? Is it possible I set the die up wrong? I didn't set it up any different than the rcbs die and everything came out fine on that one

The brass is salvageable.
You'll need to run the neck into a 270 or 280 expander and then back through your properly set die. This will create a false shoulder and allow the old shoulder to move forward without brass flowing from the web area.

Basically, you'll be fireforming the shoulder back into place.

 

[918v]

Loaded round that I used rcbs die is .294

Brass used on redding die w/ .289 bushing
Outside neck is .284-.285
inside diameter is .254
Neck thickness is around .016-.017

Not sure why that bushing is sizing so much smaller. I double check to make sure it actually says .289

That’s cuz when a neck goes through a bushing it’s walls have to bend and flow around the construction. The bushing is labeled by its inside diameter, not what the neck actually sizes to.

 

[918v]

Did you measure the shoulder properly to see how much you actually bumped?

 

[Milo 2.5]

That’s cuz when a neck goes through a bushing it’s walls have to bend and flow around the construction. The bushing is labeled by its inside diameter, not what the neck actually sizes to.

What? Bushings are labeled outside diameter.

 

[918v]

Bushings are labeled by their inside diameter

 

[Milo 2.5]

Bushings are labeled by their inside diameter

LOl, re-engage when you sober up

 

[Milo 2.5]

LOl, re-engage when you sober up

If you read the op, how the fuck would a .289" inside dia measurement work with a .264" dia bullet?

 

[918v]

Inside diameter of the bushing, stupid. 264 plus 15 thou times 2.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Inside diameter of the bushing, stupid. 264 plus 15 thou times 2.

What aspect of a .284" bushing will work in the op's situation. Just delete your idiocy and I will too.

 

[918v]

I didn’t tell him to use a 289 bushing. I’m explaining why the shit is happening. He should first get accurate measurements, then get the right bushing.

 

[Milo 2.5]

I didn’t tell him to use a 289 bushing. I’m explaining why the shit is happening. He should first get accurate measurements, then get the right bushing.

The bushing did not do this.

 

[918v]

No, the magic reloading fairy did.

 

[918v]

When I was using bushings I typically got .002” neck tension by using the same size bushing as my loaded neck diameter. This is because the same dia bushing actually sized .002” smaller when I measured the neck in the middle. As the brass got harder I had to step down to a smaller bushing due to spring back.

If the OP has a true loaded neck dia of .294” then he should get a .292” bushing as a worst case scenario.

 

[TxWelder35]

Now even I know I'm my very limited knowledge of reloading, a 289 bushing should make the OD of the neck 289. Not sure why this is being argued above.

Think I'm just gonna trash the bad brass, fixing it I think is going to be over my head based on what yall are saying above. Going to order the correct measuring devices and see what actually happened before I get rid of it though.

Lots of good lessons learned here.
1. Pay better attention before I ruin a ton of brass
2. Learned how to actually properly set up a die

I'm going to try the method above to try and see if I can get it working if not I'll send it off to redding and see whats going on.

 

[flashhole]

The "oversized" cases may not fire because the shoulder determines the proper headspace on a bottle necked cartridge. Your case will be pushed too far forward in the chamber for proper firing and may result in the bullet engaging the lands. It may or may not fire depending on the length of your guns firing pin. Reliable and proper ignition will not happen and you could create an unsafe condition. Salvaging your brass via neck expansion and resizing was a good advice technique if you want to salvage the brass but you will have to fireform it to get it back to correct dimensions. Get a comparator that works with your calipers and check the shoulder bump when you are adjusting your dies. I recommend anyone's but Hornady's.

 

[lash]

The "oversized" cases may not fire because the shoulder determines the proper headspace on a bottle necked cartridge. Your case will be pushed too far forward in the chamber for proper firing and may result in the bullet engaging the lands. It may or may not fire depending on the length of your guns firing pin. Reliable and proper ignition will not happen and you could create an unsafe condition. Salvaging your brass via neck expansion and resizing was a good advice technique if you want to salvage the brass but you will have to fireform it to get it back to correct dimensions. Get a comparator that works with your calipers and check the shoulder bump when you are adjusting your dies. I recommend anyone's but Hornady's.

And why would you not recommend Hornady’s comparator? It’s a freaking comparator ffs. Not a Hornadaddy fan?

And as to recovering those bad cases, do either what Milo or Mike C. said. It will cause a case situation with less life than if you hadn’t screwed up, but it’s doable.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Now even I know I'm my very limited knowledge of reloading, a 289 bushing should make the OD of the neck 289. Not sure why this is being argued above.

Think I'm just gonna trash the bad brass, fixing it I think is going to be over my head based on what yall are saying above. Going to order the correct measuring devices and see what actually happened before I get rid of it though.

Lots of good lessons learned here.
1. Pay better attention before I ruin a ton of brass
2. Learned how to actually properly set up a die

I'm going to try the method above to try and see if I can get it working if not I'll send it off to redding and see whats going on.

Haha on the rumble.
I do think, if you can find a case diagram, Hornady, Berger manuals have them, take measurements of new, fired and sized cases in a few areas, esp dia of the body shoulder area. The side by side pic to me looks like your sized case is way skinnier, neck way too long, One more time, a bushing will not do that. Where a die dimension will. That sized cases looks all kind of messed up.
Maybe finding a mentor close by might help.
You can hang on to that brass, and with more experience try to fire form them back at some point.

 

[Country]

The range for Redding bushings for .260 Rem is .287 to .295 . You really have to measure a loaded round or a seated bullet in an empty case of the brass you are using . Take the diameter and subtract the amount of neck tension you want . That's the bushing size you need . eg . Case neck measures .297 . .297 - .002 tension = .295 bushing size . Neck tension should be chosen to suit the use of the ammo , the type of action , method of feeding and expected recoil or inertia or grip placed on the bullet during use.

A .284 bushing is in the range for sizing a .257 caliber not a .264 caliber .
Check your shell holder it may have been ground down to push a should back that far and check the die as the sized case looks a different shape to me .

 

[bschneiderheinze]

I don’t think anyone mentioned this but you said you sprayed hornady one shot on it and went to town. Did you let it dry it will make a big difference

 

[Country]

I don’t think anyone mentioned this but you said you sprayed hornady one shot on it and went to town. Did you let it dry it will make a big difference

I noticed it but I assumed he knew how to use it , probably a mistake on my part . You are right to point it out , it's potentially a common mistake . Never been a fan of One Shot . I have used several different brands and settled on RCBS liquid . A bit messier to use but never had a stuck case since using it .

 

[TxWelder35]

I don’t think anyone mentioned this but you said you sprayed hornady one shot on it and went to town. Did you let it dry it will make a big difference

Thinking about it now, about half were done with the pad and lube that comes with an RCBS kit, other half were done with the one shot. I sized some of them before I got the one shot.

I did not let the one shot dry