Redding Type S .308 Seating problems- Redding Customer Service leaves much to be desired

[DieselWSM]

Help. Working with trimmed, sized, deburred, chamfered brass. Bullets are 175smk and Berger 185 Juggs. Literally have to measure each loaded round due to inconsistent seating depths. Thought maybe it was the bullet, switched to 185s and same problem.

Bullets are measured for OAL and bearing surface and all within .001 and getting depth varying from .002 to .006 difference...in EACH LOADED ROUND. Had to adjust my micrometer .009 to change the seating depth .003...wtf?!?

Redding customer service sucks. Called 3 times, the 1st and 2nd the very helpful tech (sarcasm) told me that I was doing something wrong and/or it was an issue with the bullets. The last time I called they asked me to send their die back and my expense with some brass and bullets to see if they can replicate the problem. Not happening.

Anybody experience similar issues?

 

[QuietShootr]

Are you measuring base to tip or base to ogive?

 

[DieselWSM]

Base to ogive

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[QuietShootr]

with what tool?

Base to ogive

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[DieselWSM]

Comp nut

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[dcnyli]

bullet comparator...

 

[QuietShootr]

I can't imagine the seating stem is moving around that much. I'd check your technique with the Sinclair tool and see if you're getting a consistent measurement.

Comp nut

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[DieselWSM]

I can't imagine the seating stem is moving around that much. I'd check your technique with the Sinclair tool and see if you're getting a consistent measurement.

Exact same varying seating results with the Hornady comp and bullet insert as was with the comp nut, both measuring ogive to base. At one point, I backed the micrometer way off and started again. I seated a bullet and was over .050 off of where I wanted to be so I gave the micrometer a full turn, hit the ram again and it changed the depth .034. Something isnt right. What really turned me off to Redding is the tone of arrogance in the tech support.

 

[DieselWSM]

bullet comparator...

Yes, comparator nut

 

[TheGerman]

Are you using a single, or multistage press? If single, that won't be an issue.

Could be a problem with your measuring tools. Grab a box of factory loads and check to see how close they are to each other to verify; or do you have a 2nd set of measuring tools to cross verify?

If neither of these is the case, what brand bullets are you using? Have you measured the bearing surface lengths between bullets? This is usually where the problem with different OALs on the ogive come from, in that, while the seater is seating on the ogive, the ogize length (bearing surface) is a different length between bullets. This is better explained in the 'Reloading 101' stickies somewhere but I think the variance in the bearing surface can be your difference.

 

[DieselWSM]

Did you even read my initial post?

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[powereng]

Couple of quick thoughts. I use the same dies and I find it helps to take the die apart and clean the inside of seating stem every now and then. You wouldn't believe how much copper builds inside there over time. Usually when my OGIVE numbers start to fluctuate I'll find a small piece of copper up in there.

Also be sure to lube the outside of the seating stem and the outside of the cylinder that slides inside the die body.

Lastly, remember not every bullet jacket is the same thickness so your OGIVE will change bullet to bullet. I measure each bullet prior to loading the sort them in .001" increments.

 

[427Cobra]

How are you cleaning your brass, and has your brass ever been annealed.

 

[DieselWSM]

I ordered a vld seating stem and cleaned everything up so hopefully that will improve it a bit. Used to work great hopefully get that back.

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[DieselWSM]

How are you cleaning your brass, and has your brass ever been annealed.

Not sure how brass cleaning method would affect seating depths but 2x fired lapua stainless media tumbler

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[TheGerman]

Did you even read my initial post?

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Yep.

And I still think you're screwing up with the measurements and/or tools.

 

[mdmp5]

First off, there is no type s seating die; just the competition seating die. Next, there may be absolutely nothing wrong with your die. Redding's customer service is exemplary. I wouldn't trash them just yet, because I believe you may be explaining your findings to them in an ambiguous manner. I made and posted this video on seating with the comp seating die a few weeks ago. Please watch this video, and pay close attention to around 6 minutes in. It may explain some of your findings.



<iframe width="480" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/ZAgAnIIxqHA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[mdmp5]

I re-read your post, and I see that you are claiming that the micrometer is not true to it's adjustments? If so, this can sometimes happen if you are seating a compressed load. If you are not seating a compressed load, yes, the micrometer may ben faulty for some reason. But it can also be your measuring. Try seating a bullet a little long, and making small adjustments on the micrometer and remeasure. For this task, I would measure the OAL, not the ogive to base measurement. It is easier to measure the OAL, and will be easier to see the adjustments made. Give it a try.

 

[DieselWSM]

First off, there is no type s seating die; just the competition seating die. Next, there may be absolutely nothing wrong with your die. Redding's customer service is exemplary. I wouldn't trash them just yet, because I believe you may be explaining your findings to them in an ambiguous manner. I made and posted this video on seating with the comp seating die a few weeks ago. Please watch this video, and pay close attention to around 6 minutes in. It may explain some of your findings.



<iframe width="480" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/ZAgAnIIxqHA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Thanks for your insight. You are correct however I bought the 3 die series and the bushing die is the type s. Glad your experience with redding was more positive than mine

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[DieselWSM]

I re-read your post, and I see that you are claiming that the micrometer is not true to it's adjustments? If so, this can sometimes happen if you are seating a compressed load. If you are not seating a compressed load, yes, the micrometer may ben faulty for some reason. But it can also be your measuring. Try seating a bullet a little long, and making small adjustments on the micrometer and remeasure. For this task, I would measure the OAL, not the ogive to base measurement. It is easier to measure the OAL, and will be easier to see the adjustments made. Give it a try.

That is correct, the micrometer is not true to its rotation and subsequent .001 hash marks. I have tried just about everything I can think of the ensure it is not me and the method of my measurement. Contrary to other people's opinion on this thread, I have been doing this for a few years and comfortable in my manner of measurent and replicated the error in various measureing techniques. The lack of support by redding led me here to look for others who may have had similar experiences.

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[DieselWSM]

Yep.

And I still think you're screwing up with the measurements and/or tools.

Oh well I guess if you had read it you wouldnt ask what bullets I was using and if I had been checking bearing surface, etc. Been dping this for a while German and pretty confident in my ability to read numbers and use the given tools correctly. As with all of those who have responded, thanks for your insight

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[mdmp5]

That is correct, the micrometer is not true to its rotation and subsequent .001 hash marks. I have tried just about everything I can think of the ensure it is not me and the method of my measurement. Contrary to other people's opinion on this thread, I have been doing this for a few years and comfortable in my manner of measurent and replicated the error in various measureing techniques. The lack of support by redding led me here to look for others who may have had similar experiences.

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Every time I have called Redding for advice or part replacement, they have been super helpful. Get Chris on the phone; I have talked to him a bunch over the years and he knows what he is talking about. Tell him, "I believe that my micrometer is not tracking correctly. When I turn it .01", I get a true seating adjustment of whatever". Like I said above, make sure you measure OAL to compare before and after because that eliminates possible variables when using an ogive comparator.

 

[mdmp5]

Diesel, don't worry about qualifying yourself to other people on this forum. Who cares what they think about your experience. There may be smartasses now and then, but most are trying to help. Sometimes people get a little overzealous, and try to play hand loading detective. Read the responses, take the sound advice, and just ignore the posts that seemingly marginalize your claims. You know how many rebuttal posts from know it alls I have gotten over the years? It gets frustrating, but just chill out; the answers will come one way or another. You just have to run into the right people. No matter if you started loading last week or 10 years ago, there are constant caveats that pop up in this hobby. Remember, we are dealing with thousandths of an inch here. If the slightest aberration is in play, it can throw everything off. Just when I want to consider myself an experienced loader, shit pops up that simply blows my mind. Meanwhile, the correct answer is usually the simplest one, and I cannot find it for the life of me. I learn something new almost every time I load, and it is usually from some sort of unexpected measurement. I have done my best in rectifying the issues by experimenting and asking questions.

 

[427Cobra]

Not sure how brass cleaning method would affect seating depths but 2x fired lapua stainless media tumbler

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That is your problem, SS cleaned brass removes all the carbon inside the neck, carbon inside the neck acts as a lube or a barrier between the copper and brass, if you continue to SS clean your brass lube the inside of your necks with a dry lube, Imperial has a kit, I bet your required force to seat pills decreases and much improved consistency in Ojive length.

 

[SPAK]

That is your problem, SS cleaned brass removes all the carbon inside the neck, carbon inside the neck acts as a lube or a barrier between the copper and brass, if you continue to SS clean your brass lube the inside of your necks with a dry lube, Imperial has a kit, I bet your required force to seat pills decreases and much improved consistency in Ojive length.

Concur. From real world experimentation cobra is spot on regarding the super clean necks from SS tumbling and seating friction/force.... If your seating force is hard enough you could have damaged your seating stem as well. That would cause all sorts of havoc with concentricity and or seatif depth consistency. That being said I routinely use dry lube for seating bullets in brass that has been SS Tumbled.

 

[mdmp5]

That is your problem, SS cleaned brass removes all the carbon inside the neck, carbon inside the neck acts as a lube or a barrier between the copper and brass, if you continue to SS clean your brass lube the inside of your necks with a dry lube, Imperial has a kit, I bet your required force to seat pills decreases and much improved consistency in Ojive length.

I don't buy that at all. Ive been cleaning that way for years now and theres always carbon inside the neck. I also never had seating problems.

 

[SPAK]

I don't buy that at all. Ive been cleaning that way for years now and theres always carbon inside the neck. I also never had seating problems.

How long do you tumble for? I run my brAss for 1.5hr to 2 hrs and my brass come out brand new clean with no carbon in my necks...cobra is right. Ultrasonic cleaned or SS tumbled brass results in higher seating forces vs dry tumbled or just brushing out necks. Now if you're only using .0015-.001" of neck tension you probably won't notice too much but the force required to seat will still be higher.. annealed necks or .002" of neck tension or more combined with super clean brass necks will have a lot of seating force required. Without annealing it will still require a lot of seating force but not as much.

 

[DieselWSM]

How long do you tumble for? I run my brAss for 1.5hr to 2 hrs and my brass come out brand new clean with no carbon in my necks...cobra is right. Ultrasonic cleaned or SS tumbled brass results in higher seating forces vs dry tumbled or just brushing out necks. Now if you're only using .0015-.001" of neck tension you probably won't notice too much but the force required to seat will still be higher.. annealed necks or .002" of neck tension or more combined with super clean brass necks will have a lot of seating force required. Without annealing it will still require a lot of seating force but not as much.

I am not on board with that either. I could possibly understand a .001 or maybe (and this is a stretch) a .002 difference because of SS cleaning. But as my posts said earlier, the variation is much higher and I have even spun a full turn on micrometer and only changed the depth by .034.

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[milo 2.0]

and has your brass ever been annealed.

Neck tension will dictate your seating depth more than anything, If you don't anneal your going to have a crap shoot as far as tension goes. I shoot a lot of compressed loads, and that in itself creates problems, the only thing I can do to offset it is, when seating, do a couple turns on the case, and leave it in the die for a few seconds, ramming and jamming wont work.

I'm not on board with neck lube, a chamfered case should be fine. You should be able to feel the diff in neck tension when seating bullets, and cull your loads accordingly. I'd bet the ones giving you fits are the ones that seat easy???
VLD style bullets are the only ones really sensitive to seating depth, hybrids, scenars, and amax's are relatively forgiving, and after any throat wear, have you noticed a diff?

You also need to shoot these problem child's side by side with acceptable ones to decide if it will make a difference.

As for that Comp seating die and 1 click or line equals .001. aaagghhh

 

[DieselWSM]

Diesel, don't worry about qualifying yourself to other people on this forum. Who cares what they think about your experience. There may be smartasses now and then, but most are trying to help. Sometimes people get a little overzealous, and try to play hand loading detective. Read the responses, take the sound advice, and just ignore the posts that seemingly marginalize your claims. You know how many rebuttal posts from know it alls I have gotten over the years? It gets frustrating, but just chill out; the answers will come one way or another. You just have to run into the right people. No matter if you started loading last week or 10 years ago, there are constant caveats that pop up in this hobby. Remember, we are dealing with thousandths of an inch here. If the slightest aberration is in play, it can throw everything off. Just when I want to consider myself an experienced loader, shit pops up that simply blows my mind. Meanwhile, the correct answer is usually the simplest one, and I cannot find it for the life of me. I learn something new almost every time I load, and it is usually from some sort of unexpected measurement. I have done my best in rectifying the issues by experimenting and asking questions.

Agreed. Thanks for the advice!

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[mdmp5]

How long do you tumble for? I run my brAss for 1.5hr to 2 hrs and my brass come out brand new clean with no carbon in my necks...cobra is right. Ultrasonic cleaned or SS tumbled brass results in higher seating forces vs dry tumbled or just brushing out necks. Now if you're only using .0015-.001" of neck tension you probably won't notice too much but the force required to seat will still be higher.. annealed necks or .002" of neck tension or more combined with super clean brass necks will have a lot of seating force required. Without annealing it will still require a lot of seating force but not as much.

I pretty much tumble for the same amt of time, but there is always some light residue inside the neck. I anneal, and use anywhere between 1-2 thou of neck tension. Never had a seating problem

 

[427Cobra]

Try this, remove the carbon on the outside of some cases with 0000 steel wool, run a brush in and out of your necks, clean your primer pockets by hand and continue on with your normal reloading process, let us know if your seating variations continue.

 

[SPAK]

Neck tension will dictate your seating depth more than anything, If you don't anneal your going to have a crap shoot as far as tension goes. I shoot a lot of compressed loads, and that in itself creates problems, the only thing I can do to offset it is, when seating, do a couple turns on the case, and leave it in the die for a few seconds, ramming and jamming wont work.

I'm not on board with neck lube, a chamfered case should be fine. You should be able to feel the diff in neck tension when seating bullets, and cull your loads accordingly. I'd bet the ones giving you fits are the ones that seat easy???
VLD style bullets are the only ones really sensitive to seating depth, hybrids, scenars, and amax's are relatively forgiving, and after any throat wear, have you noticed a diff?

You also need to shoot these problem child's side by side with acceptable ones to decide if it will make a difference.

As for that Comp seating die and 1 click or line equals .001. aaagghhh

I do agree that if not annealing then the variation in neck tension would change seating depth, especially rounds that have too little neck tension with compressed loads. Even minimally compressed loads..

that at being said, if your neck tension is all over the map even trying what cobra suggested with the steel will and brushing the inside of necks may not help.

i still stand that using some sort of dry lube be it residual carbon or graphite/moly whatever aids in the seating process for consistency... I'm not out to try and convince anyone. I just know what I've seen from experimentation. If your process works go for it. If it ain't broke don't fix it.. I would prefer not to use neck lube when seating. I've tried it again since adding lube to he process and results were not good... The only time I don't is with bulk loaded rounds or if I don't use SS Tumbling...YMMV

 

[QuietShootr]

I did NOT know that. Hm. I wonder if that's been the source of the last .001-.002 I've been chasing?

Concur. From real world experimentation cobra is spot on regarding the super clean necks from SS tumbling and seating friction/force.... If your seating force is hard enough you could have damaged your seating stem as well. That would cause all sorts of havoc with concentricity and or seatif depth consistency. That being said I routinely use dry lube for seating bullets in brass that has been SS Tumbled.

 

[SPAK]

I did NOT know that. Hm. I wonder if that's been the source of the last .001-.002 I've been chasing?

.001-.002" of what exactly?

 

[QuietShootr]

Why would he want to measure to OAL when the tips vary so much on SMKs? That's the exact opposite of how everyone else does it.

I re-read your post, and I see that you are claiming that the micrometer is not true to it's adjustments? If so, this can sometimes happen if you are seating a compressed load. If you are not seating a compressed load, yes, the micrometer may ben faulty for some reason. But it can also be your measuring. Try seating a bullet a little long, and making small adjustments on the micrometer and remeasure. For this task, I would measure the OAL, not the ogive to base measurement. It is easier to measure the OAL, and will be easier to see the adjustments made. Give it a try.

 

[QuietShootr]

.001-.002" of what exactly?

Sorry - indicated runout of the bullet in a loaded round.

 

[mdmp5]

Why would he want to measure to OAL when the tips vary so much on SMKs? That's the exact opposite of how everyone else does it.

You are missing the point. He will measure the OAL first, then seat and measure again. The OAL will change relative to the adjustment made. This is for the purpose of testing his micrometer, nothing else.

 

[QuietShootr]

That makes sense. I thought you were telling him he needed to be checking his loaded rounds' OAL.

You are missing the point. He will measure the OAL first, then seat and measure again. The OAL will change relative to the adjustment made. This is for the purpose of testing his micrometer, nothing else.

 

[SPAK]

Sorry - indicated runout of the bullet in a loaded round.

Mmmm maybe.. A cracked seating stem will likely show runout on the order of .005-.007" TIR. However excessive seating force can induce runout as well.


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[Assault116]

I may have missed this, but have you ever seated with this die on compressed loads?

If so, the Redding comp dies have a reputation for cracking the seating stem on compressed loads, they have even started printing a warning in the instructions for them now that they are not to be used for compressed loads.

A cracked stem would amplify any neck tension/seating drag issues via how much flex there is in the stem due to a crack, and therefore be more inconsistant in seating depth.

That'd be the first thing on my list to check. If you're running a compressed load, look at switching to a Forster micrometer seating die.

 

[No1]

I ordered a vld seating stem and cleaned everything up so hopefully that will improve it a bit. Used to work great hopefully get that back.

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Reading down through this, this stood out. So it use to work but now it doesn't and who's fault is it again? Did the cleaning help it or change anything? Is the stem touching the bullet on the ogive or the tip? I don't remember that far back but I think I lapped my stem a little so it would fit the bullet better.

 

[QuietShootr]

No, I was referring to the SS media/too clean issue. I know my stem/sleeve isn't cracked.

Mmmm maybe.. A cracked seating stem will likely show runout on the order of .005-.007" TIR. However excessive seating force can induce runout as well.


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[orkan]

After cracking two seating stems on my redding comp dies, and then being accused of running compressed loads by their warranty department, (which I was not) was enough for me to go to forster/whidden dies and never look back. That, and a recent 22-243 FL die that looked like it was chambered with a piece of crushed granite from the parking lot...

I don't miss redding gear, or their attitude, in my reloading room one tiny bit.

 

[milo 2.0]

After cracking two seating stems on my redding comp dies, and then being accused of running compressed loads by their warranty department, (which I was not) was enough for me to go to forster/whidden dies and never look back. That, and a recent 22-243 FL die that looked like it was chambered with a piece of crushed granite from the parking lot...

I don't miss redding gear, or their attitude, in my reloading room one tiny bit.

If your seating stem {anyone} gets cracked, if it's not noticeable in 3 rds, it's on you! Same thing here as orkan, Redding doesn't like this, blamed compressed loads here, it was non chamfered cases, same thing, but I had to argue, more so because they wont take a card, you must mail them a check and wait.
As for customer service, I'd imagine it's all who you get on the line, some good, some shouldn't be in the public specter.

 

[Boogie]

Caution! The watching of this video could cause you to run out and buy a T-7 press. Which in my case also caused a nag attack from the wife! You'd think that after 40 years she would have learned I don't listen

First off, there is no type s seating die; just the competition seating die. Next, there may be absolutely nothing wrong with your die. Redding's customer service is exemplary. I wouldn't trash them just yet, because I believe you may be explaining your findings to them in an ambiguous manner. I made and posted this video on seating with the comp seating die a few weeks ago. Please watch this video, and pay close attention to around 6 minutes in. It may explain some of your findings.



<iframe width="480" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/ZAgAnIIxqHA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Briggs]

OP I'm having the exact same issues as we speak with a 6.5 creed using new brass and amax. Load is not compressed. I have same die in 308 using 175 smk and never had an issue. Please keep us updated on how it goes. Where did you find the veld seating stem in stock? That was my next move too.

 

[mdmp5]

I may have missed this, but have you ever seated with this die on compressed loads?

If so, the Redding comp dies have a reputation for cracking the seating stem on compressed loads, they have even started printing a warning in the instructions for them now that they are not to be used for compressed loads.

A cracked stem would amplify any neck tension/seating drag issues via how much flex there is in the stem due to a crack, and therefore be more inconsistant in seating depth.

That'd be the first thing on my list to check. If you're running a compressed load, look at switching to a Forster micrometer seating die.

When the stem cracks, it does so at the point above the E-clip, so the stem ends up falling through the sleeve. The die will not work with a cracked stem.

 

[mdmp5]

I have been using my 308 com seating die for a semi compressed load for about 3-4 years now. 47 grains of H4895 under 155 Palmas. Upon seating, I can feel the bullet hitting the powder, but it is not so much as to really crunch the shit out of the powder. I think I am near the limit charge that the die can be reliably used with. I'd say that at about 48 grains, it would truly be compressed.

 

[Assault116]

When the stem cracks, it does so at the point above the E-clip, so the stem ends up falling through the sleeve. The die will not work with a cracked stem.

Well, I guess the one I had that had cracked along the length of the stem was an anomaly then. Dunno, all I know is that was the first indication of problems with mine. Got a VLD stem for it and then sold it (got away from that caliber). I had chocked it up to having bought it second hand and god knows what the previous owner did to it until I found out the info on the compressed loads and assumed that was the situation. But realistically in that case, who knows WTF happened to it before I got my hands on it.