I am in the process of gearing up for 6mm Creedmoor to shoot some local matches with. I’m down to the last few reloading components. I am trying to decide between the Redding type S Full Length bushing die vs a Forster Full Length sizing die with the neck custom honed by Forster. What are the pros, cons and real life experiences with these two dies? I have only used the cheap RCBS & Hornady dies with typical runnout around .005-.007”. I would like to start this off with better dies and try to improve on that. For the seating die I’ll be going with the Forster micrometer seater. I have Lapua brass, RL16 and some Berger hybrid 105’s. I run a co-ax press along with 2 RCBS presses. Thanks
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Redding type S FL bushing die vs a honed Forster FL die
- Thread starter jd65
- Start date
Definitely go with a micrometer seater, either Forster or Redding. As far as the sizing dies go, the Forster sizes the neck all the way to the neck/shoulder junction while the Redding doesn't quite get there. On the other hand if for whatever reason you need to change your neck tension (how much you size the neck) you can do it with the Redding by changing bushings. My personal preference has been the Redding dies.
They both functionally do the same thing. With the forster once the material is honed/removed it cant be put back in but there is no way the die can become unconcentric, its solid. With the redding type s you can alter the neck diameter to whatever you want whenever you want but its a floating bushing and can can get off center if the brass forces it to do so.
I have both, both work just fine.
I have both, both work just fine.
If you have a stable source of brass I’d go honed Forster all day everyday.
If there’s a chance your neck thickness may vary the Redding S die is nice as you can adjust to it.
If there’s a chance your neck thickness may vary the Redding S die is nice as you can adjust to it.
I’ve got both and see no difference on the target, even at 1000 + yards. The above posts mention brass and neck thickness but the bushing type dies also allow adjustment and tuning of neck tension.
With the bushing die, some have stated that the bushing does not size the neck all the way down. How important is that? I see Redding offers the Competition Bushing die with the micrometer head to control this but it would then add the extra step of a body die.
I don’t think it’s an issue.
Really the only issue I have with bushing dies is when your chamber has a generous neck and you have to size the neck down more than 4-5 thousandths.
I had issues with that combination.
You can still use a bushing but you have to step down in two stages or look at other alternatives.
The Type “S” sizing die with a neck bushing does two jobs at once; sizes the body AND the neck. The micrometer neck sizing die ONLY sizes the neck so body sizing has to be done in another step. While the bushing dies don’t size the entire neck, they DO size the area most important, that is the part of the neck just above the neck/shoulder junction where donuts have a tendency to form.
That is correct, there is a chamfer to make sure that the end of the case neck doesnt smack square into the bushing and goes in nicely. Due to this there will always be a smidge that isnt quite as small as the rest. That said its never given me an issue.
Less parts and complexity is almost always better. If you think you might change brass thickness have the die honed undersized and expand the necks with a Sinclair mandrel.
I have a forester die honed out and I like it. I honestly don’t think there is much difference though between using it and a good bushing die though.
One thing to keep in mind is that while you cannot use a bushing on the forester you can use an expander ball. When I ordered mine I ordered two dies and 3 expander balls. The expander ball I believe I ordered them with .0005 between them and the die with .001. So that way I could fine tune neck tension or if there was slight variation in neck thickness. Maybe a little over kill but still cost the same for everything as like a Whidden sizer. I prefer using a expander ball that just barely touches to move any irregularities out of the inside because I am not going to get into neck turning.
One thing to keep in mind is that while you cannot use a bushing on the forester you can use an expander ball. When I ordered mine I ordered two dies and 3 expander balls. The expander ball I believe I ordered them with .0005 between them and the die with .001. So that way I could fine tune neck tension or if there was slight variation in neck thickness. Maybe a little over kill but still cost the same for everything as like a Whidden sizer. I prefer using a expander ball that just barely touches to move any irregularities out of the inside because I am not going to get into neck turning.
I do NOT use an expander ball. I do NOT turn my necks. Quality brass, I use Lapua, has fairly consistent neck thicknesses so I have not found the need for either. Many on this forum have found this to be true.
I use quality brass too, all I was saying is that you can still control neck tension some without the use of a bushing by using an expander in the non-bushing die. Especially if you have two honed out dies for same caliber with .001-.002 difference between them. You can get several expanders of slightly difference sizes for cheap. With the two dies and expanders I have I can basically account for variation of .003. I just had two new 6.5cm barrels spun up and I am switching to Alpha brass for them, so I imagine there is going to be some slight variation from Lapua brass. Probably no enough it would matter but if it is I have .003 of neck tension that I can play with.
All I use the expander for is just to barely touch the inside of the neck. I size down to .002 neck tension then run an expander thru that will only be .0005 larger than the inside. Giving me something between .002 and .0015 neck tension due to spring back. Probably doesn’t make a difference but I like to think it helps if there are any irregularities or slight difference in neck thickness.
Functionally yes, the expander ball does the same process as the expander mandrel does.
The difference is that the ball goes inside the case which is then sized down above it and gets pulled out through the neck when you extract the case from the die. The expander mandrel gets forced down into the sized brass.
When you pull the ball through it can want to tilt or go off center based on brass thickness variances etc and can lead to some runout in your cases concentricity. The mandrel gets forced into the neck but it will always go in square. The only downside to the mandrel over the ball is that it requires an additional step to use: 2x as many handle pulls on a single stage press.
Since you are just starting I would recommend you stick with the expander ball as it comes set up in the sizing die when you purchase it, they can work very well. You can always pick up the mandrels later if you get the itch.
As you can see, there are different opinions about the sizing process and they all work. I've tried every way that's been discussed above and not found one to be better than another...at least that's what my targets tell me. I prefer to minimize the number of steps with the least amount of work on my brass. Give one method a try and if you're happy with the results, move on. If not, try another method until you find one that works for you AND gives you the results you want.
Enjoy the journey...
Enjoy the journey...
The advantage is the brass is worked less. My Forster dies are only .001 undersized so neck expansion is minimal.
Do you negate that with the Redding by not locking the bushing in all the way with the stem screw and instead back it off like 1/8th of a turn?
Sort of. Brass will go the path of least resistance. So no guarantee and more of a mitigate vs negate.
Locking it down doesnt guarantee that it will be off center but it does guarantee that it could (and probably will) be off center. As such its best to float it and let it find its own way.
Backing it off until you can just hear it rattle a tad (when its clean inside of lube and gross stuff) means the brass can dictate where the bushing goes. But since the brass can decide that means the path of least resistance could still be off center. If once sides case wall is thicker than the other that material difference will force it one way more than the other.
Good brass with good even necks makes this less of a concern than cheap brass with crap necks.
Agree with this, I honestly don’t see a difference between using bushing, using full length, neck sizing or any method that gives you consistency.
I will tell you where I do see problems. Using standard full length dies because they way over work the necks in my opinion. I think my Whidden dies for the 6.5cm are either .005 or .006. Whatever the measurement is I was surprised about it when I measured it. I did get lower ES and SD once I switched to honed die and better seating depth consistency.
One issue I really fought with using the standard FL die was my seating depth would be consistent for a few rounds and then I would get one that would be off. Using bushing does and honed dies I do not see this and I do annel with an AMP every reloading, so not related to neck hardness I don’t believe.
I am using regular bushing die for 22cm. So I use both methods.
In my opinion if you can control the neck tension it doesn’t matter if you use bushing, FL or neck sizer. I think if the standard FL can work well it just overworks the necks and that is why I prefer the honed dies or bushing dies.
