I’ve been studying a lot of the online training videos here lately and had a question concerning LOP. I’ve got a KRG bravo with the adjustable buttplate and when setting the rifle up without the scope the 13 3/4 LOP provided with no spacers feels comfortable to me and my wrist angle seems to be good as well. BUT adding a single spacer to extend out to 14 1/8 seems to be just as comfortable and I believe I can still get square behind the rifle. In this instance where would a person want to gravitate to? I’m looking to be relatively comfortable in prone but optimize this rifle for positional shooting. I am 6 ft 150lb and lanky for reference. Thank you!
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Refining my LOP
- Thread starter ClayH1994
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Shorter is better for positional. I shortened mine too and it gives you more flexibility since you can always back up on a shorter length of pull.
I used to run a Bravo and IIRC the LOP was shorter than 13.75" when run without any spacers... might want to recheck how you're measuring it. Most people measure LOP on their arm from their elbow crease to their index finger making a right angle (where it would engage the trigger), and then on the rifle from the trigger-face to the end of the buttstock.
Anyways, generally, shorter is better, you want to be square behind the gun much in the same way as most fast 3-gun/USPSA guys run carbines and PCCs. JMHO but I wouldn't make any concessions for shooting prone, since prone is likely the easiest position you'll find yourself shooting in, and while the extra length might be a little more comfortable when prone, it pretty much hurts you everywhere else the rest of the time.
FWIW, I'm 6'2" with long arms and I run a 13.5 LOP.
Anyways, generally, shorter is better, you want to be square behind the gun much in the same way as most fast 3-gun/USPSA guys run carbines and PCCs. JMHO but I wouldn't make any concessions for shooting prone, since prone is likely the easiest position you'll find yourself shooting in, and while the extra length might be a little more comfortable when prone, it pretty much hurts you everywhere else the rest of the time.
FWIW, I'm 6'2" with long arms and I run a 13.5 LOP.
I appreciate the feedback! I wasn’t clear initially, by adjustable I meant the buttplate that adjusts up and down, which already adds some length to the buttstock. With the adjustable butt plate and no additional spacers I am at 13 3/4. Thank you for including your height as well that makes me think I’m not crazy for how short everything is ending up.
Length of pull should be defined by the 3 points of contact we make with the rifle.
1. Face somewhere on the cheek riser. (not hanging off front or back)
2. Comfortable wrist angle when the trigger hand has proper trigger finger placement and grip.
3. From prone - the ability to run the bolt without lifting your elbow off the ground. (or minimal lift) Lifting the elbow means the rifle is to far away. Check this last one after firing a round in the chamber. The bolt lift pressure if higher with a newly fire case.
I agree shorter is better, especially for positional shooting. It creates the opportunity for you support forearm to find more support locations on barricades. It also lessons the "lever" distance for the influenced the shooter puts into the system.. ie less wobble.
1. Face somewhere on the cheek riser. (not hanging off front or back)
2. Comfortable wrist angle when the trigger hand has proper trigger finger placement and grip.
3. From prone - the ability to run the bolt without lifting your elbow off the ground. (or minimal lift) Lifting the elbow means the rifle is to far away. Check this last one after firing a round in the chamber. The bolt lift pressure if higher with a newly fire case.
I agree shorter is better, especially for positional shooting. It creates the opportunity for you support forearm to find more support locations on barricades. It also lessons the "lever" distance for the influenced the shooter puts into the system.. ie less wobble.
JMHO...
I say screw prone, don't let that dictate shit unless you only ever plan on shooting prone.
I shot a 1-day this past weekend and did better on the positional stages shooting off a bag under the rifle than I ever have before, largely due to the fact that I could get squared up behind the rifle/scope relatively easily using a shorter LOP than I had used previously.
We shot a longer stage (800-1200 yards) from prone off the top of a shipping container. The targets were at 800, 900, 1000, 1100, 1200. I hadn't shot prone at all since going to the shorter LOP (forgot), and yeah, it felt a little weird, I didn't have a lot of shoulder contact (or at least as much as I was used to), but I still got 8 out of 10 (which was more than most of the shooters in my squad due to the wind gusting and some of us getting luckier than others). Only 1 guy cleaned it (he also won the match).
My working hypothesis is: prone is the most stable position we can/will find ourselves shooting in, stability-wise almost everything is already going our way, so tune/dial your LOP to work for you with the other/harder stuff, and shooting prone will take care of itself.
It's worth mentioning that many of the stages were modified-prone using a bipod and rear bag while crouching/kneeling/bent-over weird... the shorter LOP was much better for all of that type of stuff for me. I shot a couple of stages ok like that and was in perfect position on a few more while I jammed my gun and basically pissed down my leg lol.
I say screw prone, don't let that dictate shit unless you only ever plan on shooting prone.
I shot a 1-day this past weekend and did better on the positional stages shooting off a bag under the rifle than I ever have before, largely due to the fact that I could get squared up behind the rifle/scope relatively easily using a shorter LOP than I had used previously.
We shot a longer stage (800-1200 yards) from prone off the top of a shipping container. The targets were at 800, 900, 1000, 1100, 1200. I hadn't shot prone at all since going to the shorter LOP (forgot), and yeah, it felt a little weird, I didn't have a lot of shoulder contact (or at least as much as I was used to), but I still got 8 out of 10 (which was more than most of the shooters in my squad due to the wind gusting and some of us getting luckier than others). Only 1 guy cleaned it (he also won the match).
My working hypothesis is: prone is the most stable position we can/will find ourselves shooting in, stability-wise almost everything is already going our way, so tune/dial your LOP to work for you with the other/harder stuff, and shooting prone will take care of itself.
It's worth mentioning that many of the stages were modified-prone using a bipod and rear bag while crouching/kneeling/bent-over weird... the shorter LOP was much better for all of that type of stuff for me. I shot a couple of stages ok like that and was in perfect position on a few more while I jammed my gun and basically pissed down my leg lol.
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Isn’t it just as easy to get square behind a rifle with a 15” LOP as it is with a 13.5” LOP? Seems to me that scope position determines how square one can get behind a rifle. Obviously the longer the LOP, the further the back the scope would need to be and the opposite would be true for a shorter length of pull with all else being equal.
I used to think shorter was better but now I am in the camp of whatever feels the most comfortable especially if it’s a rifle that will be supported when firing more often than not. Get a comfortable square body position first and only then mount the scope in the correct position on the rifle. I do like short LOP rifles that are more likely to be shot unsupported such as carbines.
I don’t shoot competitively so take that into consideration.
I used to think shorter was better but now I am in the camp of whatever feels the most comfortable especially if it’s a rifle that will be supported when firing more often than not. Get a comfortable square body position first and only then mount the scope in the correct position on the rifle. I do like short LOP rifles that are more likely to be shot unsupported such as carbines.
I don’t shoot competitively so take that into consideration.
I think a longer LOP has its place, like taking shots off-hand for instance, like when shooting 3-gun when you need to try and get stable for a longer shot with a light ~7lb rifle and no bipod/bag, or maybe certain hunting situations where one might take a shot off-hand.
But, for the most part, none of us are taking shots off-hand with our ~20lb PRS-style rigs, so IDK why one would want to set the LOP up to be biased toward that sort of thing.
I think when it comes to rifles, we've all had the "3 or 4 points of contact" stuff burned into our brains, but not all rifles are the same, we're not climbing out of trenches and shouldering Garands, these days, lots of times we try to barely touch the rifle and let it "free recoil".
But, for the most part, none of us are taking shots off-hand with our ~20lb PRS-style rigs, so IDK why one would want to set the LOP up to be biased toward that sort of thing.
I think when it comes to rifles, we've all had the "3 or 4 points of contact" stuff burned into our brains, but not all rifles are the same, we're not climbing out of trenches and shouldering Garands, these days, lots of times we try to barely touch the rifle and let it "free recoil".
On the Max Ordinate podcast, Andy Slade spoke to designing a length of pull around where your support hand can grab the rifle and bag while shooting from a barricade, while the rest of your body remains square behind the rifle.
As a newby this was interesting, though very competition specific.
-Stan
As a newby this was interesting, though very competition specific.
-Stan
This is a very informative thread. I especially like the nugget of knowledge to make sure one can run the bolt without moving too much out of position.
I’m against the grain on this and say longer is better as long as you can get square and see through the scope. Longer is better IMO bc the less bent the strong side arm is the more natural of a position you’ll have. The bicep is the only thing you should be using in that arm and the further you bend it past 90deg the more awkward it is to use that muscle. It’s a weak/unnatural position for the arm to be bent really far and it makes it difficult to isolate and use the bicep. For me it promotes tension in the right shoulder and neck as well.
The actual LOP is really not what prevents people from getting square on a barricade. There’s no anatomical reason your body can’t be just as square with a 15” LOP as you can 13” LOP unless you have troll arms. The limiting factor is eye relief on the scope. Ppl set their scopes up in prone with their neck cantilevered over the stock(another issue in itself) and then when they stand up their face is too far back to get proper eye relief. I’ve gotten to where I can’t physically get the scope as far back as I’d like on some scope bases. All of our rifles are set at 15-16” LOP and I’m 100% square when standing and when prone. I’ve got long arms so I’m not saying this length is for everyone, but I think the shorter is better blanket is outdated and lacks reasoning.
If you aren’t pulling the rifle into your shoulder and are basically shooting belly benchrest and free recoiling on barricades, shorter may be better. But for connecting the rifle to your body and driving it, having a less bent strong side arm put you in a more natural position to use the arm correctly.
The actual LOP is really not what prevents people from getting square on a barricade. There’s no anatomical reason your body can’t be just as square with a 15” LOP as you can 13” LOP unless you have troll arms. The limiting factor is eye relief on the scope. Ppl set their scopes up in prone with their neck cantilevered over the stock(another issue in itself) and then when they stand up their face is too far back to get proper eye relief. I’ve gotten to where I can’t physically get the scope as far back as I’d like on some scope bases. All of our rifles are set at 15-16” LOP and I’m 100% square when standing and when prone. I’ve got long arms so I’m not saying this length is for everyone, but I think the shorter is better blanket is outdated and lacks reasoning.
If you aren’t pulling the rifle into your shoulder and are basically shooting belly benchrest and free recoiling on barricades, shorter may be better. But for connecting the rifle to your body and driving it, having a less bent strong side arm put you in a more natural position to use the arm correctly.
6'2" & 13.25 LOP. Factors; grip placement, scope position. I will say, I found the shorter LOP for myself 2 years back and I have been far more consistent in my shooting. I feel more in control, significantly less bad trigger pulls. Getting straight and square used to be difficult and felt awkward, for myself it was to long LOP.
It will be an individual thing for sure.
13-13.5 is pretty standard. There’s not a lot I’ve come across that goes much longer than that without extra spacers or extensions. How do you mainly shoot? Prone/bench/barricade?
