Suppressors reflexive suppressors

[MDStroup]

When I build my taticool wanabee sniper rifle I want to build a SAM/SDM rifle clone at the same time. Kind of a sniper and spotter weapon set. The other day I saw an ar15 with a suppressor all the way up to the FSB, l liked the way it looked and want mine to have one like that, but I don't know if it is possible to make a real one(i think the one i saw was just for show). So went I get my fourm 1 to make a suppressor would this be possible to make or a waste of money, and were could I find information on effective reflex suppressor designs because i nor any of the people I know know much about reflexive suppressor except that they mostly go back over the barrel, and are generally not as good a noise suppression.

 

[sinister]

Re: reflexive suppressors

 

[wakajawaka]

Re: reflexive suppressors

You might look for a copy of Alan Paulsons books. <span style="text-decoration: underline">Silencer History and Performance Vol I & 2</span>. Lots of pictures and diagrams of vintage supression.

Might find them at your local book store for a look see befor buying them as they are about $85 for the two.

I have had good luck on half.com for used books as well.

And don't forget Google...

 

[HPLLC]

Re: reflexive suppressors

A RSTA II would look like that on a 12.8" barrel. Or on a rifle length gun with a 18" barrel.

The reason why it is less common to see suppressors that go back 4-5" over the barrel is that there is a point of diminishing returns and those 4-5" cans have to be 5-6" forward of the muzzle in 5.56mm to perform well- so they end up being 10-11" long and 32ounces. Other products 7" long and 20 ounces perform pretty similarly.

<span style="font-weight: bold">Another issue is that the longer the unit extends over the barrel, the more limiting the mounting options and weapon compatibility for it become (for instance that unit would only be compatible with 14.5" and 16" carbine gas, possibly midlength gas 16" as well as 20" rifle gas setups. So anything 10.5 through 14" in carbine gas would be a no-go, and also 18" rifle gas (SPR) </span>

 

[MDStroup]

Re: reflexive suppressors

• Cool black hawk down picture Sinister, that movie is one of my favorites.
• thanks for the book reference dead-bird, I will look it up.
• thanks for the helpful information Griffen
Now correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the reflexive suppressor design originate from Finland?

 

[Tuukka]

Re: reflexive suppressors

Yes, the term Reflex was first used by BR-Tuote Oy here in Joensuu, Finland for their suppressors.

We have manufactured the Reflex suppressors for BR-Tuote Oy since 1994, in addition to our own Ase Utra product series.

The main benefit of the Reflex design is the short added length to a weapon.

However we and other manufacturers have proven that front mounting suppressors can be as effective or even more effective than back over the barrel type suppressors.

But that really depends on the suppressor design more, as the BR Reflex suppressors are quite simple in their design, they can easily be surpassed with a more complex, front mounting design.

To generalize, the good things on various makes of the back over barrel type suppressors are; less added length to the weapon and possibly lower back pressure.

<span style="font-weight: bold">However, in many cases they are overtly large, long, heavy and have a poor performance vs. size ratio.</span>

A good example is the image below, one of our older S series S5 suppressors on the left and a BR T8 Reflex on the right.

Both have been measured at 140-141 dB (A) 1 m left the muzzle in independent tests:

Of course there are quality back over the barrel suppressors for example from SureFire, AAC and Ops Inc and some of my above comments might not relate to their products.

Also, as mentioned above the baffles and construction in front of the muzzle have a better suppression ability than the rearwards parts have.

Best Regards!

Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors

 

[mrjimsfc]

Re: reflexive suppressors

Of course, we can't get Finnish made suppressors in the U.S.A. Hmmm....The last time I was in Joensuu was about 30 years before B R Tuote got started. If I remember correctly, it was mostly forest there then (and dirt roads too).

 

[Tuukka]

Re: reflexive suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrjimsfc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Of course, we can't get Finnish made suppressors in the U.S.A. Hmmm....The last time I was in Joensuu was about 30 years before B R Tuote got started. If I remember correctly, it was mostly forest there then (and dirt roads too). </div></div>

It is a pretty busy town nowadays, being a university town with a lot of foreign students.

I am working right now on getting a sample batch of our products imported there for review.

Best Regards!

Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors

 

[HPLLC]

Re: reflexive suppressors

<span style="font-weight: bold">And an oil filter makes a terrible muzzle thread mount suppressor...

Taking the worst performing marketed example and generalizing doesn't help anyone to get the best information. </span>

In the military I used several suppressors. The best for precision work, and for autoloading weapons, were over the barrel suppressors. The Ops 12th and 3rd, the KAC M110 suppressor are good products.
<span style="font-weight: bold">
The over the barrel advantages are:
More stable quick mounting system for better accuracy.

More durable mounting system.

Shorter system length added

Better center of gravity (more rearward)

Lower backpressure for autoloading weapons

Greater safety factor
</span>

The S-series suppressor (older model) Notice ~1/3 to 1/6th the blast chamber volume of the over the barrel suppressors in the X-ray below it. This volume reduces hoop stress on the suppressor tube body, and reduces the tendency for gas to be routed back through the barrel- eroding the muzzle crown.

The primary disadvantages of over the barrel mounting are:
Weight and Cost.

 

[Tuukka]

Re: reflexive suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">And an oil filter makes a terrible muzzle thread mount suppressor...

Taking the worst performing marketed example and generalizing doesn't help anyone to get the best information. </span>

In the military I used several suppressors. The best for precision work, and for autoloading weapons, were over the barrel suppressors. The Ops 12th and 3rd, the KAC M110 suppressor are good products.
<span style="font-weight: bold">
The over the barrel advantages are:
More stable quick mounting system for better accuracy.

More durable mounting system.

Shorter system length added

Better center of gravity (more rearward)

Lower backpressure for autoloading weapons

Greater safety factor
</span>

The S-series suppressor (older model) Notice ~1/3 to 1/6th the blast chamber volume of the over the barrel suppressors in the X-ray below it. This volume reduces hoop stress on the suppressor tube body, and reduces the tendency for gas to be routed back through the barrel- eroding the muzzle crown.

The primary disadvantages of over the barrel mounting are:
Weight and Cost.

</div></div>

Taking the worst performing marketed example and generalizing doesn't help anyone to get the best information. [/b]

In the military I used several suppressors. The best for precision work, and for autoloading weapons, were over the barrel suppressors. The Ops 12th and 3rd, the KAC M110 suppressor are good products.
<span style="font-weight: bold">
The over the barrel advantages are:
More stable quick mounting system for better accuracy.

More durable mounting system.

Shorter system length added

Better center of gravity (more rearward)

Lower backpressure for autoloading weapons

Greater safety factor
</span>

The S-series suppressor (older model) Notice ~1/3 to 1/6th the blast chamber volume of the over the barrel suppressors in the X-ray below it. This volume reduces hoop stress on the suppressor tube body, and reduces the tendency for gas to be routed back through the barrel- eroding the muzzle crown.

The primary disadvantages of over the barrel mounting are:
Weight and Cost.

[/quote]

The BR Reflex was there to illustrate my point, my intention was not to lump all the back over the barrel suppressors in the same category, the BR is probably the biggest example of wasted space.

However it has been also very widely sold here in Europe in the past 20 years and 140-141 dB ( A peak ) at 1m left of the muzzle does not compare so badly against independent test data available on U.S. made .308 suppressors.

Did you miss this sentence in my post:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Of course there are quality back over the barrel suppressors for example from SureFire, AAC and Ops Inc and some of my above comments might not relate to their products.</div></div>

Yes, the back over the barrel type suppressors do have their positive points, mainly the short added length and possibly lower back pressure.

Why do you think our company started to develop our own products in the late '90s: people wanted shorter, lighter and possibly even more effective suppressors.

The development of fast attach mounts and suppressor technology overall is at a point that there are front mounting suppressors on the market that have:

- Extremely good and solid flash hider mounts
- That are much shorter in overall length and lighter than back over the barrel suppressors
- That are capable of offering similar or even better sound suppression levels than back over the barrel suppressors
- That provide equal or better flash suppression

Which type of suppressors just won the USSOCOM contracts?

Also, your comment with regards to barrel erosion, our older S series and SL models are in use in numerous countries on various sniper rifles, we have not experienced any barrel/muzzle erosion issues.

Regards!

Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors

 

[mrjimsfc]

Re: reflexive suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuukka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am working right now on getting a sample batch of our products imported there for review.

Best Regards!

Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors </div></div>

I'd sure like to test/review one on my .375 Cheytac! Unfortunately, laws regarding the import of firearms suppressors into the U.S. are a tad cumbersom.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: reflexive suppressors

A great example that totally fails to illustrate the "Wasted space" argument Tuukka is trying to make is the AAC SPR-M4. I've read the baffle system is the same as the M4-2000- so forward of the flash suppressor the two cans are similar. Of course the SPR-M4can goes back over the barrel 2".

The M4-2000 in recent independent testing metered 134DB [16"barrel M855]
The SPR-M4 in recent independent testing metered 130.4DB
[16" barrel M855]

<span style="font-weight: bold">So the 2" of space rear of the barrel (same operating length added for both products) resulted in 3.6DB of additional sound suppression. </span>

The weight cost in this case is 1.45 ounces. <According to the website the SPR M4 weighs .9 ounces more, and the mount .55 ounces more.

Divide the SPR-M4's other 21.4 ounces of system weight by 1.45 and multiply by 3.4 and you get 50DB <AKA that 1.45 ounce of weight added is out performing the other system weight per ounce, by a ratio of ~1.4-1.

Typically the weight penalty in other over the barrel products will be more like 2-4 ounces and ratio more or less linear (performance to weight added).

<span style="font-weight: bold">In my experience, when you put a baffle close to the muzzle - short barrel weapons pulverize the living crap out of the baffle no matter what material it is made of. </span> This of course turns your suppressor into a high wear part like a muzzle brake- because it has baffle spacing common to muzzle brakes.

So that would be another detractor of the otherwise quite good, S series design. The S-Series products are guaranteed for 2 years or 10,000 rounds.

Surefire suggests 30,000 rounds to be their product life expectancy. There are other American brands with 45,000 or more rounds through them in working order. American products typically have lifetime guarantees.

<span style="font-weight: bold">In design there is no free lunch. American products trade some efficiency for more safety factor, and longer lifespans.</span>

To compare Ase Utra to an American product is to compare apples to oranges. To use the S series and Br-tuote comparison as a reason to discourage someone from an American over the barrel product, is just not the most helpful comparison.

Ase Utra review with 2 year / 10,000 rounds quoted.

2 year warranty on Ase Utra's S series page.

 

[Tuukka]

Re: reflexive suppressors

Do not put words in my mouth, I was not trying to discourage anyone from buying a back over the barrel suppressor.

As I stated above, there are quality back over the barrel suppressors in the U.S.

With regards to the warranty, that is a reasonable warranty we have set, however apart from abusive use on short barreled assault rifles, the lifetime or effectiveness can also be affected by the fouling inside than just actual round count.

There are plenty of Ase Utra suppressors around the world that are ticking after the 10000 round mark.

With regards to the S series, the thread you see in the rear of that cutaway is for the separate thread adapter, you do not actually see where the muzzle comes to.

We also do not have any experiences of the baffles of our S series or other suppressor models "pulverizing"

Regards!

Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors

 

[HPLLC]

Re: reflexive suppressors

I just like to see American customers get good solid advice that helps them buy the best product for their application.

The BR-tuote verses small S series product is more like something I would expect to run into in the front office of a tire store- a sliced fiberglass belted "Competitor tire" versus the Steel belted Goodyear.

 

[Tuukka]

Re: reflexive suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just like to see American customers get good solid advice that helps them buy the best product for their application.

The BR-tuote verses small S series product is more like something I would expect to run into in the front office of a tire store- a sliced fiberglass belted "Competitor tire" versus the Steel belted Goodyear. </div></div>

No problems with that.

I tried to explain the comparison as well as I could, however it is not always easy to convey the thought on a few lines and I also tried to make clear that there are more better back over the barrel suppressors available than the BR.

Our opinion just is that modern front mounting suppressors have surpassed the need for the back over the barrel suppressors on most weapon types and applications.

Regards!

Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors

 

[mrjimsfc]

Re: reflexive suppressors

Griff: Read between the lines! What Tuukka is saying is "Been there, done that, moved 3 miles west and now I'm doing something else I think is better". Even you have to admit that based on the weapon, caliber, rate of fire, etc. different suppressor designs work better/worse than others.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: reflexive suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrjimsfc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Griff: Read between the lines! What Tuukka is saying is "Been there, done that, moved 3 miles west and now I'm doing something else I think is better". Even you have to admit that based on the weapon, caliber, rate of fire, etc. different suppressor designs work better/worse than others. </div></div>

You make a great point- the ideal suppressor design will vary by application. I was under the impression the poster was discussing semiautomatic precision rifles. That's a niche where the over the barrel suppressors have some unique advantages making them well suited to that application.

I think the Ase Utra S series suppressor has unique advantages of its own- as a replacement for a bolt action precision rifle, it is probably ideal- maybe best in class. Obviously though- not being manufactured in America really presents an obvious reason why it won't be the product for the poster above. (unobtainable).

 

[mrjimsfc]

Re: reflexive suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Obviously though- not being manufactured in America really presents an obvious reason why it won't be the product for the poster above. (unobtainable). </div></div>

Yup, that's the big downside. About the only way we could get one in the U.S. is if Ase Utra were to sell a franchise to a manufacturer here. Possible I suppose but not likely.

 

[Tuukka]

Re: reflexive suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrjimsfc</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Obviously though- not being manufactured in America really presents an obvious reason why it won't be the product for the poster above. (unobtainable). </div></div>

Yup, that's the big downside. About the only way we could get one in the U.S. is if Ase Utra were to sell a franchise to a manufacturer here. Possible I suppose but not likely. </div></div>

Hi,

We had a licence manufacturing contract with U.S. company, but that just did not work out in the end. That company is also facing their own problems right now.

I have been discussing possible licencing with a number of U.S. companies in the past year, so it is still a valid topic here.

Best Regards!

Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors

 

[MDStroup]

Re: reflexive suppressors

Wow. Haven't checked this thread in a bit. Kind of surprised by all of the posts. Tuukka hope you make a deal with someone soon because I would like to try one of your suppressors. Best of luck to you. Thank you all for the help you have given me.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: reflexive suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MDStroup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow. Haven't checked this thread in a bit. Kind of surprised by all of the posts. Tuukka hope you make a deal with someone soon because I would like to try one of your suppressors. Best of luck to you. Thank you all for the help you have given me. </div></div>

It can't hurt to have more products to choose from. I hope it works out.

 

[KYS]

Re: reflexive suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tuukka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do not put words in my mouth, I was not trying to discourage anyone from buying a<span style="color: #FF0000"> back over the barrel suppressor</span>.

As I stated above, there are quality <span style="color: #FF0000">back over the barrel suppressors</span> in the U.S.

With regards to the warranty, that is a reasonable warranty we have set, however apart from abusive use on short barreled assault rifles, the lifetime or effectiveness can also be affected by the fouling inside than just actual round count.

There are plenty of Ase Utra suppressors around the world that are ticking after the 10000 round mark.

With regards to the S series, the thread you see in the rear of that cutaway is for the separate thread adapter, you do not actually see where the muzzle comes to.

We also do not have any experiences of the baffles of our S series or other suppressor models "pulverizing"

Regards!

Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors
</div></div>

Reflex Suppressor.....

 

[HPLLC]

Re: reflexive suppressors

I think the reason for his saying "back over the barrel" is because Br-tuote has or had at one time some sort of patent or trademark on "reflex" and ASE competes in the form of the "NorthStar" and probably has to use the marketing speak, or terminology that makes it legal or seperate from the BR Tuote system.

To try to pin the whole market on over the barrel suppressors is strange, when those preceded BR-Tuote but suppressor companies commonly patent ideas that they are bringing to market for the second or third or fifth time.

Back over the barrel might be more correct if "reflex" is a term that Br Tuote used to try to suggest originality of something that was not their idea.

I actually have two Russian Patents in PDF that are the embodiment of the Maxim 1909 baffle- similar to Ase utra's S-series baffle.

So someone in Russia is trying to suggest he is the original inventor (circa 2007) of a technology that Maxim Patented in 1909, and that a different company is using in nearby Finland.

Russia granted the two patents on basically the same technology. So someone can use the patent number in Russia to say, "Hey I invented this."

The majority (or probably at least 60%) of suppressor patents of the last few decades are total bullshit. If you do the prior art searches, most ideas are tied very closely to other pre-existing patents, or to something un-patented that someone else already brought to market and didn't patent (IE already public domain).

It happens more here in America than anywhere else AFAIK.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: reflexive suppressors

Very true....

Over a hundred years later and you are supposed to think some of this stuff is new. At least some of the companies ask to use the copyrights and reference the originators. Its rare.

 

[MDStroup]

Re: reflexive suppressors

Rollingthunder51 those are some very nice 1911s. They're one off my favorite handguns and I hope to get a pair of them suppressed one day.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: reflexive suppressors

US Firearms co

The picture is on the US Firearms co site. YHM no longer advertises the Maxim in appearance only products.

It would have been more interesting if someone still had tooling and was able to produce the actual Maxim suppressor, or made tooling to make the Maxim suppressor. That of course would probably cost a good deal of money and market demand probably wouldn't make it a successful venture.

The Maxim products were pretty competitive- like mid 30DB .22lr suppressors- but they didn't come apart for cleaning, which today's market would want.

 

[Tuukka]

Re: reflexive suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the reason for his saying "back over the barrel" is because Br-tuote has or had at one time some sort of patent or trademark on "reflex" and ASE competes in the form of the "NorthStar" and probably has to use the marketing speak, or terminology that makes it legal or seperate from the BR Tuote system.

To try to pin the whole market on over the barrel suppressors is strange, when those preceded BR-Tuote but suppressor companies commonly patent ideas that they are bringing to market for the second or third or fifth time.

Back over the barrel might be more correct if "reflex" is a term that Br Tuote used to try to suggest originality of something that was not their idea.

I actually have two Russian Patents in PDF that are the embodiment of the Maxim 1909 baffle- similar to Ase utra's S-series baffle.

So someone in Russia is trying to suggest he is the original inventor (circa 2007) of a technology that Maxim Patented in 1909, and that a different company is using in nearby Finland.

Russia granted the two patents on basically the same technology. So someone can use the patent number in Russia to say, "Hey I invented this."

The majority (or probably at least 60%) of suppressor patents of the last few decades are total bullshit. If you do the prior art searches, most ideas are tied very closely to other pre-existing patents, or to something un-patented that someone else already brought to market and didn't patent (IE already public domain).

It happens more here in America than anywhere else AFAIK. </div></div>

To my knowledge BR does not have any trademarks for the Reflex, however I have used the back over the barrel term to generally describe that type of suppressors.

However the only "real" Reflex, is the BR Reflex, other manufacturers have their own terms and product names ( for example SureFire uses the term Overlap and AAC "over-the barrel design" on the M4/SPR )

Best Regards!

Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors

 

[HPLLC]

Re: reflexive suppressors

The front page of BR-tuote-

The front page says "REFLEX SUPPRESSORS TM" <as in trade mark. That would imply they trademarked "reflex suppressors".

Maybe the logo is the TM?

It's foggy memory but I thought I remembered reading about how Br Tuote made some waves over the use of the term, or the design of over the barrel suppressors in America.

Because it's been many years, I can't recall if memory serves me correctly or not.

 

[Tuukka]

Re: reflexive suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The front page of BR-tuote-

The front page says "REFLEX SUPPRESSORS TM" <as in trade mark. That would imply they trademarked "reflex suppressors".

Maybe the logo is the TM?

It's foggy memory but I thought I remembered reading about how Br Tuote made some waves over the use of the term, or the design of over the barrel suppressors in America.

Because it's been many years, I can't recall if memory serves me correctly or not. </div></div>

That is not the current BR website, here is their current one: http://www.brtuote.fi/index.php

A search through our patent and registration office did not locate a valid trademark for them. If they once had one, it is probably expired now.

Best Regards!

Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors

 

[johngfoster]

Re: reflexive suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MDStroup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I build my taticool wanabee sniper rifle I want to build a SAM/SDM rifle clone at the same time. Kind of a sniper and spotter weapon set. The other day I saw an ar15 with a suppressor all the way up to the FSB, l liked the way it looked and want mine to have one like that, but I don't know if it is possible to make a real one(i think the one i saw was just for show). So went I get my fourm 1 to make a suppressor would this be possible to make or a waste of money, and were could I find information on effective reflex suppressor designs because i nor any of the people I know know much about reflexive suppressor except that they mostly go back over the barrel, and are generally not as good a noise suppression. </div></div>

If you can post a pic of the rifle/suppressor, I'm sure someone could identify it and save you having to build one on a form 1, unless that is what you really want to do. More than likely it is a commercial offering that can be purchased. Post up a pic. I'm sure we'd all like to see it.

 

[mrjimsfc]

Re: reflexive suppressors

It looks like they have changed their web page location again to http://guns.connect.fi/rs/. The sign in front of the place of business just says (translation to English) "Gunsmith Company". It seems odd that they would operate out of a little green house (with a red roof) in the suburbs of Joensuu.

 

[Tuukka]

Re: reflexive suppressors

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrjimsfc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It looks like they have changed their web page location again to http://guns.connect.fi/rs/. The sign in front of the place of business just says (translation to English) "Gunsmith Company". It seems odd that they would operate out of a little green house (with a red roof) in the suburbs of Joensuu. </div></div>

As I mentioned above, that is the older BR website, the current link is in my post.

Yes, they operate from one house as there is no in-house suppresssor production = our company has manufactured their suppressors for them since 1994.

Best Regards!

Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors