relative newb just starting to shoot off of bags. What are the basics?

[AR Jon]

So im relatively new here and new to shooting also. Ignoring basic training 35 years ago and the handful of times ive shot guns with friends since then, my "career" of shooting began about 5-6 weeks ago lol. First I got a 9mm pistol and about 2 weeks ago an AR15. I am about 1800 rds into my shooting career lol

That being said, I am going thru the baby steps that I assume most people go thru as they start to become students of the game. At this point I am just getting into bench shooting with the AR. Yes I know prone is better etc and ill get there eventually but for now lets just make the best of bench shooting.

Today will be my first session with my own bags. Very basic Caldwell deadshot bags. What are the basics of the setup? Did I read correctly that its better to start with the rear bag a bit high and then push down into it to make it more solid? (as opposed to continually squeezing and fluffing it up to go higher)

How is one making tiny adjustments using the bag?

How accurate can one be with a basic 16" AR 15, good scope, store bought ammo etc on a 100yd range. Right now even 3 MOA would be a decent achievement. Should I be able to get 1 MOA with a basic setup like I describe?

Thanks, JJ

 

[Newbie2020]

Not that you asked, but step one is to get BEHIND The bench so you can be BEHIND the rifle not to the side of the bench and to the side of the rifle. That way it’s more akin to shooting prone and you’ll develop better habits.
Thanks to the Hide.

 

[ditter]

Front page of the site has some good articles on the mechanics of the firing hand and the support hand.

 

[AR Jon]

Well I went to the range with high expectations. Ended up shooting about the worst I have so far.

Its hard to understand how, once you've lined up the crosshairs on the same spot 3 times in a row, that you end up with shots being 3-5 inches apart. So much for shooting even one decent group. How does it vary that much shooting OFF OF BAGS??

I understand its a mil spec trigger with probably 8ish lbs of pull, but its hard to believe id be moving the gun THAT effing much.

Using this ammo: https://www.targetsportsusa.com/win...ain-jacketed-frangible-ammunition-p-3624.aspx

I understand it not match grade but is there something in it being frangible that disallows it from shooting decent groups at even 50-100 yds??

The only thing I can throw out for feedback is that the gun really jumped when I fired it. Normally it jumped considerably to the left. As in it would be looking left of target after most shots.

I was attempting to "load" somewhat into the stock etc but obviously it wasnt working. Im full of questions. I dont at all understand how you can even TOUCH the gun without introducing errors. how do you even touch it without putting your heartbeat right up thru it to where u see the scope moving.

I see tons of people on youtube shooting great long range groups while shooting sideways on a bench. Obviously they know something I dont know

 

[Powder_Burns]

Online training will answer a lot of your questions, with video too.

 

[AR Jon]

Online training will answer a lot of your questions, with video too.

I mean obviously ive watched dozens of vids lol. They make it look so effortless and they do cute little things like zero in 2 shots etc.

Meanwhile im on a somewhat downhill range so that its substantially different angles of setup for 25/50/100 yd shots.

Im watching guys online easily shooting tiny groups meanwhile im over here trying to prop up my rear bag on my CZ P10 case to get the angle to the target close enough.

Im too pissed to be objective right now. eff it. Ill try again tomorrow on a flatter range. It'll either work out or it wont

 

[Powder_Burns]

The way you described it sounds like a recoil management issue, which is totally counter-intuitive to the fact you are shooting 5.56, which has essentially no recoil.

Set your rifle on the bags and establish a natural point of aim to the target. It should be pointing at the target without being held into that position.

Firing hand pulls the stock into the shoulder pocket, support hand holds the stock and rear bag into the shoulder pocket, removing any slack from your rifle. Relax your shoulders, ie don’t tense or hunch up into the rifle. Pull the rifle to you, don’t push your body to the rifle.

Trigger control; trigger finger pad on the center of the trigger, not the tip or the joint. You want to press the trigger perfectly perpendicular to the bore, ie 90° from the direction to the target. If you have any lateral pressure on the trigger (left or right) it will displace your rifle position when you fire.

Follow through, press the trigger through the break and until the recoil impulse subsides. Don’t let off the trigger until you see your impact on target. Only afterwards allow the trigger to reset.

If you are doing those things correctly, your body will absorb the recoil, having a solid position and natural point of aim and proper trigger technique and follow through will allow the rifle to remain almost perfectly in position.

If you know how to execute the fundamentals consistantly, then you can rule out the ammunition or rifle having an issue.

 

[hereinaz]

Think of pointing the gun at the target, then building your body around it, so as to not influence the rifle. That is essentially natural point of aim purpose.

How do you wrap your body around the rifle?

Well, think of your body as a big meat sack to absorb the recoil. If the bag is at an angle, the rifle will jump at an angle. So get straight behind it and relax so the bag of meat is soft, not flexed and muscled up. Nuzzle up behind the rifle really stacking all the meat to absorb the recoil.

Righties often kick to the left with bad angle of meat bag.

Don't lay your head on the stock, that pushes the stock right and the barrel left. Gently press your check or jaw, just enough to repeat that.

Get your trigger hand in a neutral position, relaxed, not twisty, with a little pressure rearward with the three fingers. Not right or left, back gently. Get your trigger finger ready without pressing your thumb and squeeze.

Now the bags are there just to help the support the rifle. Build them up so that the meat sack is super relaxed so you can wrap your meat sack around your rifle.

Figure out where your body is comfortable and relaxed.

Bags are to get the rifle into a stable and steady position. Don't cram your body into uncomfortable positions around bad bags.

 

[hereinaz]

The way you described it sounds like a recoil management issue, which is totally counter-intuitive to the fact you are shooting 5.56, which has essentially no recoil.

Set your rifle on the bags and establish a natural point of aim to the target. It should be pointing at the target without being held into that position.

Firing hand pulls the stock into the shoulder pocket, support hand holds the stock and rear bag into the shoulder pocket, removing any slack from your rifle. Relax your shoulders, ie don’t tense or hunch up into the rifle. Pull the rifle to you, don’t push your body to the rifle.

Trigger control; trigger finger pad on the center of the trigger, not the tip or the joint. You want to press the trigger perfectly perpendicular to the bore, ie 90° from the direction to the target. If you have any lateral pressure on the trigger (left or right) it will displace your rifle position when you fire.

Follow through, press the trigger through the break and until the recoil impulse subsides. Don’t let off the trigger until you see your impact on target. Only afterwards allow the trigger to reset.

If you are doing those things correctly, your body will absorb the recoil, having a solid position and natural point of aim and proper trigger technique and follow through will allow the rifle to remain almost perfectly in position.

If you know how to execute the fundamentals consistantly, then you can rule out the ammunition or rifle having an issue.

Similar to my thoughts.

 

[Moe Ron]

I think we’re into the “free recoil “ and “recoil management” discussion. It was explaining to me by one of the guys here as two different tools in you’re toolbox.
If you’re a bench rest guy you’re probably free recoil.
If you shoot long distance you’re probably recoil management.
Over simplified I know. Listen to what the guys here say. They are the real deal!

 

[AR Jon]

If you know how to execute the fundamentals consistantly, then you can rule out the ammunition or rifle having an issue.

Wish I could rule out the janky ass ghetto bench setup at my local range. For instance I had my cheapo spotting scope on the next bench over. Id shoot my shot or group then go look thru the spotting scope. Just the fact that I leaned on the table made the spotting scope move all over the place. thats the solidity of the homemade wooden benches.

cest la vie. Tomorrow ill shoot at a different range thats slightly more solid. (though it still the same basic t shaped benches)

In any case I deffo need to learn how to pull the rifle back into myself etc and im 99.9% sure that im nowhere near being 'squared up' like someone would be if they were prone. I tried standing behind the bench some today but that just made the whole setup even more janky

All I can do is try again tomorrow. Thanks for the help

 

[salks]

If you know someone who is a pretty good shot maybe let them try the rifle. Good way to tell if it's the rifle or you. Also some dry firing concentrating keeping your cross hairs on target.

 

[AR Jon]

not that there is a "right" or "wrong" in some of these things, and these guys obviously are hitting targets a mile away etc....but what do ya'll think of this type of setup? (I have it set to start at 8:52ish) It appears he has the bag under the grip as opposed to the stock. is that a common thing? could be cool as an alternative I suppose

 

[AR Jon]

If you know someone who is a pretty good shot maybe let them try the rifle. Good way to tell if it's the rifle or you. Also some dry firing concentrating keeping your cross hairs on target.

I dry fired a few times after i noticed how jacked up my groups were. I mean there may have been some small movement after the trigger click...but no way was there some huge jerk going on. Seems more like I didnt have ANY recoil management going on so the gun was just more or less jumping freely when I shot.

other times I have shot I have shot off of some sort of box or stand or even the typical pile of 2x4s that sits at the range, and id generally set my left hand up on top of the handguard. Obviously not ideal but even that was probably doing something to mitigate some of the barrel jumping. Today i just had the gun laying on top of the sandbag and the left hand would be back manipulating the rear bag etc....but i was doing several versions of not having the rifle pulled back into myself solidly etc.

I dont remember exactly but it seems like when i tried this or that to get the gun more solid that it would just make the scope move off target etc

Ill try again tomorrow. Not quite as excited as i was today though lol. Seems like it was going to be soooo easy. Nope. gonna be a long uphill slog

 

[hereinaz]

Try prone maybe. If you lose the sight picture on the rifle, you definitely need to have more control of it.

There is a video, google bipods don't hop. It has Frank showing how to manage recoil. Watch it and try thinking about rhe meat bag analogy to absorb it and not disturb it.

Definitely could be the rifle.

 

[308pirate]

Its hard to understand how, once you've lined up the crosshairs on the same spot 3 times in a row, that you end up with shots being 3-5 inches apart. So much for shooting even one decent group. How does it vary that much shooting OFF OF BAGS??

The short answer is that you don't know how to shoot. And shooting isn't as easy as it seems.

I bet your handgun shooting is even worse.

You need to pay for training unless you want to spend a shitload of money on ammo and untold amount of frustration figuring it all out on your own. And then you need to shoot, a lot, to practice what you learned in training.

ETA: you will not work your way up from this by buying gear and gimmicks.

 

[308pirate]

I dry fired a few times after i noticed how jacked up my groups were. I mean there may have been some small movement after the trigger click...but no way was there some huge jerk going on.

Do you understand trigonometry? If so, work out what a .005" of vertical or horizontal movement at the muzzle works out to be at a target 100 yards away.

Use the length of the rifle as the base of your first (smaller) right triangle.

Then you'll understand why you don't need to shank the shit out of the trigger to throw out wild shots off target.

 

[AR Jon]

todays work. 25 yds. I claim to have the gun "zeroed" at 50 yds. So its not zeroed at 25 and I didnt move the scope or holdover anything. I just aimed center target each time going for a group etc. Not expecting a bullseye per se

25 yds only. I guess Im a 25yd bitch until I deserve to shoot further. It is what it is I guess. When they are consistent dime sized then maybe ill allow myself to move back

Shot standing by leaning over from behind the bench. Decided to shoot 4 rds into each diamond so it would basically be a box of ammo per target. (was going to shoot 5 each but changed my mind. Hence the first 2 diamonds lol)

Worked on pulling gun back into myself and trying to let the gun sit into the so called natural point of aim. Gun didnt jump nearly as much etc.

Still awkward to get set up for the upper diamonds just due to the size of the bags and the shape of the B5 stock etc. The stock doesnt have a nice shallow angle to slide back and forth on.

The "groups", if they can be called that, got better as i went along. Best 2 groups were probably on the last target with the best one probably being the big center one which was the last one of the day. Nice when that happens.

I shot these clockwise starting from upper left and finishing on the center diamond.

 

[AR Jon]

I bet your handgun shooting is even worse.

Probably not. Got started on handgun a little earlier and have shot 3x as many rds so far. I have much higher expectation on rifle seeing as how rifle will be shot off of bags or prone and pistol is just shot freehanded.

ETA: you will not work your way up from this by buying gear and gimmicks.

not into gimmicks, never have been. TBH I dont know if I can name any "gimmicks" for shooting.

 

[acudaowner]

you could always set up your phone and record everything you are doing or what your not doing and review , I had someone show me in a video that I for some unknown reason was taping my finger on the trigger very tiny small movements it was neat to see to me I did not even know I was doing it . I was to be able to make a mental note to myself to correct and stop doing it . I also made a note to my self to try and keep my feet flat on the ground when shooting off a bench I noticed a strange shaking I did not know I did as I lifted my heal ever so slightly off the ground again I never knew I moved that much till I saw it on video . Now I am aware I can correct it I hope . Good luck to you fixing all your problems you can do it .

 

[Powder_Burns]

Nice to see improvement. Next thing I think will help, invest in some snap caps. Maybe half a dozen. These are dummy rounds that do absolutely nothing function wise in your rifle. The idea is to randomly load them into your magazines, when you try to fire them the gun will just go click. You will have to manually cycle the action to eject them. This will accomplish two things: Primarily, it will improve your trigger control by exposing any flinch or anticipation of recoil you may subconsciously have. Secondarily, it will familiarize yourself with weapon malfunction drills, ie clearing a round that failed to fire or eject. By randomly loading them into your mags, like 2 live rounds then a snap cap, one live round and a snap cap, etc. in different orders in your mags and then randomly selecting a mag so you aren’t ‘gaming’ yourself against expecting a snap cap, you will learn not to anticipate recoil and flinch out when pressing the trigger.

 

[AR Jon]

you could always set up your phone and record everything you are doing or what your not doing and review , I had someone show me in a video that I for some unknown reason was taping my finger on the trigger very tiny small movements it was neat to see to me I did not even know I was doing it . I was to be able to make a mental note to myself to correct and stop doing it . I also made a note to my self to try and keep my feet flat on the ground when shooting off a bench I noticed a strange shaking I did not know I did as I lifted my heal ever so slightly off the ground again I never knew I moved that much till I saw it on video . Now I am aware I can correct it I hope . Good luck to you fixing all your problems you can do it .

yeah shooting is probably just like golf, you have a picture in your mind of what you think you are doing etc but you really have no clue until you see yourself on video lol

 

[Powder_Burns]

Magpul Action Proving Dummy Round, Snap Cap 5.56x45mm NATO Polymer 5PK

Magpul 5.56x45mm NATO (.223 Remington) Action Proving Dummy Rounds are made from proprietary hard polymer.FeaturesPack of 5Black

www.midwayusa.com

 

[Jefe's Dope]

The ammo you're shooting is shit. It's right there in the reviews.

And nobody bothered to ask you what "AR-15" you're shooting. It could be anything from sub MOA at 100 to dinner plate size regardless of the ammo you're shooting.

What brand, or more specifically barrel, are you shooting? Specs?

2. Have you tried getting another shooter to see if it's you or the gun? An easy way to find out if you can find a decent shooter.

ARs aren't typically target guns. You can get/make one but they're more utilitarian with a vast array of quality.

 

[AR Jon]

I hope the ammo does suck lol. The worse it sucks the better I feel

Springfield Saint "B5". 16" barrel. came with A2 front site etc
Nikon FX-1000 scope

Decent enough gun. Ammo might be another story but at this point its sort of up to whats easily available while im learning. I dont really "know" any good shooters others than random people I see at the range lol.

you can see what I mentioned about the angle of the stock being steep. Makes it a bit more challenging IMO to make small adjustments on the rear bag I have. I might need to get a slanted rear bag or some other variety

SAINT® 5.56, M-Lok® AR-15 Rifle, B5 - Springfield Armory

www.springfield-armory.com

My plan is to keep working with the AR but eventually I will buy a different rifle more suited to precision/long range shooting. Then the AR will morph into more of a shorter range tactical gun with 15" MLOK handguard, probably a red dot etc

 

[Jefe's Dope]

You need a bag that will fill the gap in the triangle but allow you to shoulder it. Just a bigger bag. And a pillow for the front. Unless you have access to a mechanical brace that holds the entire rifle. My range keeps a couple for people to use. Not that great but better than nothing. I prefer pillows or a backpack if I don't have a front bipod. The A frame of the stock doesn't lend itself to a small bag and the 30 round mag makes for everything to be taller. Do you at least have a smaller 10 round mag? I skimmed the replies but didn't see.

Also, I know very little about that rifle. What's the twist rate? Is it a mid length chrome lined? Cold Hammer Forged or button? I assume it's a 16" 1:8 twist chrome lined button barrel. Not the most accurate. A fine battle/SD rifle, maybe not a "marksman's" rifle. So your expectations may be greater than the mechanical possibilities.

Not to fret though. Just gonna have to buy a new Designated Marksmen Rifle (DMR here on the hide ) and move The Saint to three gun duty.

But really. Find some nice ammo and try that with a proper bag setup that will allow you to naturally aim the rifle and shoot some groups. You and rifle will get better. Take a class but be careful who's teaching. Run a match that suits you. Beginners and newcomers have always been welcomed in my circles and usually you'll get some decent pointers and most will insist on trying some of their equipment. Find one, sign up and just show up and be ready to be humble and ask a couple questions. In the mean time maybe you can find someone to shoot your rifle for a second opinion.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

So I followed the easily clickable link you provided in your post to the specs on your rifle. Good news. Your barrel is melonite. While there's much debate on it's wear abilities, I think most agree it's more 'accurate' than a chrome lined barrel due to a thinner coating which in turn gives a better bullet to rifling/lands interface.

 

[AR Jon]

Do you at least have a smaller 10 round mag?

hehe. Bought one yesterday and used it today. Yeah the 30rd one deffo isnt made for shooting off a bench.

I have the Caldwell Deadshot bags. The design of the rear one doesnt work so well with the B5 stock. I think I need some smaller bags or some such etc to stack to use with these bags for more flexibility

its all a learning process for sure. 6 weeks ago i didnt even have a gun

 

[Precision Underground]

Get a bipod and a good rear bag. Dry fire for a few weeks without firing a single round. You need to learn to stay present through the whole trigger pull. You are jerking/flinching when you pull the trigger and you can’t see it when you are firing live rounds.

 

[Gustav7]

Get a bipod and a good rear bag. Dry fire for a few weeks without firing a single round. You need to learn to stay present through the whole trigger pull. You are jerking/flinching when you pull the trigger and you can’t see it when you are firing live rounds.

This is good advice. When I first got my 6.5cm and started shooting it, I would go back to my .22 and without fail my first couple shots I would catch myself flinching... I just wasn't used to anything that recoiled more than my suppressed 5.56, plus add in the muzzle brake.

Also... like others have said, your AR, while I'm sure its suitable for standard rifle usage, its not precision oriented in the slightest and that ammo is shit. Frangible ammo is most likely not going to get you anything that you're looking for. Its literally designed to blow up on steel within 25-50yds.

I think some guys don't realize the difference ammo can make even out of the same gun. Below is two different loads shot at 100yds out of my $400 AR Barrel. This was about 3 years ago when I was even less experienced of a shooter and it was a big lesson I learned reloading for my rifle.

The group on the right is bulk, cheap, mixed brass, thrown together ammo... (much like your frangible stuff). The other two groups are quality bullets, measured powder in quality brass. 0.6moa vs 2+ moa from the same match grade barrel

 

[MTB doc]

^Great advice regarding extensive dry firing. I also saw multiple people mentioned training but I didn't see (could have missed it) anyone inform you that there is excellent video training which is extremely affordable right here on Sniper's Hide. Click on the forum list and go to 'Sniper's Hide Online Training". I doubt anything else you do early on will improve your knowledge/shooting as much as that training will. Good luck and have fun.

 

[AR Jon]

Get a bipod and a good rear bag. Dry fire for a few weeks without firing a single round. You need to learn to stay present through the whole trigger pull. You are jerking/flinching when you pull the trigger and you can’t see it when you are firing live rounds.

any good mlok bipods u can recommend?

 

[Krob95]

any good mlok bipods u can recommend?

Get a mlok to picatinny rail and get an atlas PSR bipod. You’ll never regret it. If thats too much, get a mlok to sling stud adapter and get a Harris bipod.

A good ammo to use for groups and in general is federal gold medal match loaded with the 69gr smk bullets. Its a damn good factory “match” quality ammo and goes for roughly 20 bucks a box. If you can find it, get a couple boxes and try that.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

I can't deny I kinda liked my Magpul bipod when I had it. And the Hornady Black shoots well for me. It's a bit more than $20 box now. I paid $12 a box about a month ago.

 

[Precision Underground]

any good mlok bipods u can recommend?

Yea get a rail section and hook it to that. If you can’t afford a new atlas tou can get a used one for a good price if you look around. It’s well worth it. The CAL Atlas is nice but if you can’t afford it the standard V8 is fine. The Magpul is not bad but I’d get a used atlas before that.

Don’t listen to a word about “loading” the bipod. It will send you down a bad road. Just dryfire and focus on getting square, relaxing your shoulder, and pulling the rifle into that relaxed shoulder with your bicep only. You have got to learn to pull the trigger while remaining detached from the result or the noise/recoil. Most newer shooters blackout from just before to just after the trigger pull. WATCH IT ALL HAPPEN. That is very important and not talked about much.

 

[308pirate]

I'm just laughing my ass off at all the suggestions being tossed at this guy.

He doesn't know shit from shinola about shooting either rifles or pistols (trust me, a total of 1800 rounds to date ain't shit) and y'alls solution is to load him with more fucking bags/bipods/tripods/crap to hold the rifle up for him.

He needs to spend money on instruction from someone who knows how to shoot and how to teach. Not on more shit to lug to the range.

But what would I know?

 

[308pirate]

How accurate can one be with a basic 16" AR 15, good scope, store bought ammo etc on a 100yd range. Right now even 3 MOA would be a decent achievement.

You'll be lucky to get 2 MOA out of a basic service rifle like what you have. The scope doesn't make a rifle accurate.

Should I be able to get 1 MOA with a basic setup like I describe?

No, you should not expect that. I seriously doubt the rifle itself, as it is, it capable of that even with the best ammo in the world.

You didn't buy a precision rifle.

 

[AR Jon]

....this guy.

He doesn't know shit

You'll be lucky to get 2 MOA...

No, you should not expect that.

challenge accepted

 

[Krob95]

challenge accepted

Post pics when you get to that point man. Let’s see the progression

 

[AR Jon]

well lets get real about it. if I "dont know shit" and this was the first time I ever shot setting up behind bags....and I STILL posted at least 1 sub 3 MOA...how "lucky" do I have to be to get 2 MOA? Very simple matter of time.

Hell, I dont know whats considered a "standard" number of shots for MOA measurement, but if I were shooting 3 shot groups id already have sub 2 MOA posted in the above pics.

less than .75" between furthest points = less than 3 MOA. 25 yds. Avg rifle, below avg ammo. maybe I need some "luck" to get down to 2 MOA? hmmm. I dont think much luck will be involved

3 shots touching with 4th less than inch away

another nice 3 shot group with 4th "flyer"

Anyway, talk is cheap. Time will tell whats what

 

[AR Jon]

Let’s see the progression

thanks for the encouragement

 

[308pirate]

well lets get real about it. if I "dont know shit" and this was the first time I ever shot setting up behind bags....and I STILL posted at least 1 sub 3 MOA...how "lucky" do I have to be to get 2 MOA? Very simple matter of time.

Hell, I dont know whats considered a "standard" number of shots for MOA measurement, but if I were shooting 3 shot groups id already have sub 2 MOA posted in the above pics.

less than .75" between furthest points = less than 3 MOA. 25 yds. Afg rifle, below avg ammo. maybe I need some "luck" to get down to 2 MOA? hmmm. I dont think much luck will be involved
View attachment 7410413

3 shots touching with 4th less than inch away
View attachment 7410419

another nice 3 shot group with 4th "flyer"
View attachment 7410421


Anyway, talk is cheap. Time will tell whats what

Things don't scale that easily.............

Post videos of some pistol drills while you're at it. If you really want to jump into the handgun meat grinder, find your closest USPSA match and show up with the pistol, holster, at least two mag pouches, at least three magazines, and 200 - 250 rounds.

 

[AR Jon]

Things don't scale that easily.............

also have to remember though.....beginner at the early portion of the learning curve. Not uncommon to expect steady improvement

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

Do you have someone knowledgeable to shoot with you? One day with guys higher speed than me caused huge leaps - but I will caveat with bad habits are as easily learned, so It needs to be the right person. You are very new, and sometimes it's hard to cut through the bullshit. Even here. This place is full of sarcastic a-holes (guilty).

Try the online training here if you can't make a real class. Learn it right the first time.

 

[Gustav7]

Do you have someone knowledgeable to shoot with you? One day with guys higher speed than me caused huge leaps - but I will caveat with bad habits are as easily learned, so It needs to be the right person. You are very new, and sometimes it's hard to cut through the bullshit. Even here. This place is full of sarcastic a-holes (guilty).

Try the online training here if you can't make a real class. Learn it right the first time.

This is great advice. I started precision shooting with an AR, and I taught myself how to shoot that AR well over a few thousand rounds. I understand the gun, I know its "feel", and I can consistently shoot well with it.

The problem is... I didn't actually learn to shoot a rifle properly...I taught myself bad habits that worked with only one gun. Now I'm about a year into my 6.5cm bolt gun and just now getting my fundamentals under control and not seeing such erratic groups at distance with a known good load. If I shot ten groups of 5 shots with a good load, I'd have a really good group, a couple decent groups, and a couple shitty groups. A better shooter had all of the groups really good. This showed me alot... it showed me that my rifle and loads CAN shoot well, it also showed me my potential as a shooter but how inconsistent I was.

If you really wanna learn the fastest, do the online training and try to find a mentor at your range/club.

 

[308pirate]

also have to remember though.....beginner at the early portion of the learning curve. Not uncommon to expect steady improvement

At least three of us are telling you to find some training. Whether you pay for it or not, find someone to mentor you.

You could "learn" a lot of things that will come back to bite you, if you do this all by yourself

Ask me how I know

 

[AR Jon]

find a good wife
find a good job
find a good car
find someone experienced to shoot with

the kind of stuff that sounds good when u say it but isnt always as easy to do. At 53 yrs old, I think I have "learned to learn" by now without needing a ton of hand holding

Besides, isnt that what forums are for? lol

I have faith...you guys should too. Teachers etc are very needed by some...and not needed at all by others. That was a fact long before I was born and will be a fact when we are all dead and gone

 

[Powder_Burns]

As you get older time comes at a premium too.

 

[AR Jon]

As you get older time comes at a premium too.

true in a sense but....single, no kids lol. No yardwork.

Time spent at the range etc isnt exactly like slaving away at a job.

 

[Gustav7]

find a good wife
find a good job
find a good car
find someone experienced to shoot with

the kind of stuff that sounds good when u say it but isnt always as easy to do. At 53 yrs old, I think I have "learned to learn" by now without needing a ton of hand holding

Besides, isnt that what forums are for? lol

I have faith...you guys should too. Teachers etc are very needed by some...and not needed at all by others. That was a fact long before I was born and will be a fact when we are all dead and gone

I have no doubt you'll learn it. I did, but I wished I'd had learned the right way. If you can't find someone who has a lot of gas gun experience, then just watch some good videos on position and recoil management.

I think as long as you realize its a different animal and its gonna take some extra effort to get better at it you'll be fine.

You can post an update with your next range session and theres plenty of guys on here who can help. As long as you have realistic expectations

Good luck