Religious Question For The Anti Death Penalty Crowd

[W54/XM-388]

To kill or harm innocents is the greatest crime. Murder is heinous but using sexual assault, rape as a weapon like hamas did is even worse. That is torture and it is something the victim has to live with daily. Which is why I can't stand the shitbags that support hamas, palestine and the weaponizing of sexual assault.

Is killing a murderer bad? Religiously, ethically, morally?

Brutalizing and raping those you have power over seems to be a popular thing in the middle east.

Even the "virtuous" Israelis kind of got in on the action, as proven by when the Israeli politicians rioted against the court decision to charge guards for raping detainees in their custody.

But in the end, I'm pretty sure the majority of the victims on either side just wanted to live in the end and make it back to their families, no matter what.

As far as killing a "murderer" goes, well I think that depends a lot on the circumstances and a lot of other things, hence why we have juries and courts and such, flawed as they are, because well there are reasons...

 

[W54/XM-388]

Moral issues aside we have to weight the pros and cons. Some of the issues are the DA's that will do anything and push just to get a conviction to move their career ahead.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...-new-dna-evidence-frees-hawaii-man-rcna193315Hawaii man freed after 30 years in prison thanks to DNA

CBI: Forensic Scientist Manipulated Over 650 Cases

The Colorado Bureau of Investigation (CBI) announced the findings of an internal affairs investigation into a former CBI DNA scientist accused of data manipulation of DNA test results.

www.forensicmag.com

Forensic Scientist falsified information in over 650 cases

If someone is caught in the act, cool, lets take care of business or if the evidence is without a question 100% I am good with corporal punishment.

Religiously? This is challenging, kill vs murder. Is it right? I don't know.

"1. Leviticus 20:27 – “A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.”
2. Leviticus 24:16 – “And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.”
3. Deuteronomy 13:10 – “And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.”
4. Deuteronomy 17:5 – “Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.”
5. Deuteronomy 21:21 – “And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”
6. Ezekiel 16:40 – “They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords.”"https://encouragingbibleverses.org/bible-verses-about-stoning-to-death/

The problem with quoting the Mosaic law to justify the death penalty is that well, have you actually read the whole thing?

Did you happen to work this Saturday...
Did you happen to eat a cheeseburger and didn't check the exact sources of the meat and cheese...
Did you happen to wear clothes made of mixed fabrics...
Did you kill a hog one day and also some of the piglets...
Have you ever committed adultery...
Have you ever had relations with a woman during "a certain time of the month"...
Have you ever changed your religion to a different faith...

 

[LeftyJason]

One of my favorite church leaders (got to shake his hand and get a picture in 2012) gave this talk back in March of 1998.

Little background on him from Wikipedia.

Oaks was born and raised in Provo, Utah. He studied accounting at Brigham Young University (BYU), then went to law school at the University of Chicago, where he was editor-in-chief of the University of Chicago Law Review and graduated in 1957 with a J.D. cum laude. Oaks was a law clerk for Chief Justice Earl Warren of the U.S. Supreme Court, then spent three years in private practice at Kirkland & Ellis before returning to the University of Chicago as a professor of law in 1961. He taught at Chicago until 1971, when he was chosen to succeed Ernest L. Wilkinson as the president of BYU. Oaks was BYU's president from 1971 until 1980. Oaks was then appointed to the Utah Supreme Court, serving until his selection to the LDS Church's Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in 1984.

During his professional career, Oaks was twice considered by the U.S. president for nomination to the U.S. Supreme Court: first in 1975 by Gerald Ford, who ultimately nominated John Paul Stevens, and again in 1981 by Ronald Reagan, who ultimately nominated Sandra Day O'Connor.[4][5]


I love the way he speaks and talks about things. It is not a talk on the death penalty but a good way to think about judging.

Judge not and Judging.

Judge Not and Judging

There are some types of judgement we must never pass, and some we must pass. Dallin H. Oaks offers principles for making righteous judgements.

speeches.byu.edu

 

[doubloon]

Thou shalt not murder isn't even right from what I recall last time I looked into translations. IIRC it's more like thou shalt not kill without just cause.

Matthew 19:17-18

Agreed, the word murder is a form of but different from "killing" as it is more specific and implies evil or criminal motives. Every contemporary translation of the New Testament I'm familiar with says "murder".

Part of the problem is the the original question is a muddled, twisted, mind fuck of a post only intended to get attention and stir shit.

The gospel is a collection of "rules", anecdotes and lessons intended to guide an individual on his path to know Jesus. It is not "words for government to live by".

The gospel clearly talks about the difference in roles between the government and individuals.

 

[Fig]

I know I probably titled this thread poorly because it's less about a question and more about another way of looking at this controversial topic in the Christian community.

So it seems anytime capital punishment is brought up among Christians, there's always a group that with either bring up the "thou shall not kill" Commandment or say that only God gets to take a life and that the death penalty is playing God's role. However, the Commandment says "thou shall not murder" not kill. Us Christians are allowed to kill in defense of ourselves and/or others. So the way I see it is executing someone is not murder, but rather killing in defense because you are killing that person in order to defend society from a terrible person who has continued to harm to society and will continue to do so unless stopped permanently.

I get that this isn't exactly an elaborate thread and all, but I wanted to keep it simple and to the point.

You are correct. IMHO the Bible says not to murder, and there is plenty of righteous killing in the Old Testament. It is not that some people don't need to be kilt, it's that once they're imprisoned and no longer a threat to the public they can become Christians and Christ can change their hearts and save their souls, even though their ass is gona stay locked up, and it's as simple as that. The Bible tells us that our purpose in life is to love God back as he loves us, but we live in time, and God does not. Once you believe you are charged with leading others to faith, and the clear theology to minister to the wicked and accept them as brothers is undeniable, and one of the biggest divorces from Judaism in that none can claim righteousness. Christianity is not a passive religion. God wants stuff from us, and demands we behave beyond what we are, and cleave to His justice, not our own.

From a human justice point of view God's justice doesn't track. The parable of The Vineyard, The Prodigal Son, etc. illustrates that God's love for us is that of a forgiving parent, and not a fair-minded citizen. I will admit that in my own journey I had big problems with this, because it isn't "fair", but when you consider grace and the sacrifice made for us..., none are good, no, not one, no one deserves grace and forgiveness. Passing judgement for your actions on this earth is in the purview of Man's Justice, while passing judgment on the disposition of someone's eternal soul is not. We are beaten over the head with this in the Bible right up to the point of the crucifixion and Christ forgiving criminals and inviting them into his kingdom washed clean of sin through their faith in Him.

The Socratic argument the compliments the Christian's discomfort with the death penalty is that since death is a final and irreversible punishment it is only suitable for a perfect and flawless justice that does not make mistakes, and you won't really find anyone who believes a judicial system can provide that unless they make government into their god. If you accept that government is a necessary evil, but an evil nonetheless, giving it the power to make irreversible decisions (like the power to kill it's citizens even if a majority believe they deserve it) is just stupid.

So while I am against the Death Penalty for the above reasons, it isn't a hill I'm willing to die on, because when I hear about the heinous nature of crimes and the sometimes overwhelming evidence I want them dead too... Then again, I'm a very bad Christian. It's a work in progress...

 

[Fx51LP308]

Perhaps you should go like talk to folks who actually had real actual child sexual abuse done to them and ask them if they would prefer to be dead.

That's not what I'm saying at all. Don't put words in my mouth. Do you really think I believe that a child molestation victim would (or should) relieve their suffering via death? Of course not! What I am saying is that the trauma involved with child molestation can scar a child for life and cause them to be permanently dysfunctional (within a "society" context)... as if if they were dead. Not actually dead, but permanently dysfunctional. Do some children recover from it? Yes, but how long does it take, and is it a complete 100% recovery? And what level of resources do they have to aide them with that recovery? Yes, I agree that those victims would prefer "not to be dead." But I also think that they'd even more prefer not to be severely traumatized from the abuse such that it takes all that extra time/resources to recover, if that is at all possible. Still alive? Yes, but severely traumatized. They have to live with it for the rest of their lives. Can they recover? Possibly, but it would be a Herculean effort for a complete recovery.

Also you think that with murder it's all so "momentary" obviously you haven't studied enough real actual cases, usually there is a whole lot else that goes along with the murder.

I don't think it's *that* momentary, no. Obviously, there are a number of different ways to be murdered which can take any different amounts of time. From being shot quickly to slow poisoning (Arsenic for example), etc. etc. The murder can be horrifically evil (torture etc, prior to death). That said, once the victim is dead, they no longer suffer and it's their survivors (and society) that does. A child molestation victim remains alive and, to some degree, suffers for the rest of their life.

 

[Tater Salad]

There may have been clarification on the subject in the other 5 commandments.

 

[UKDslayer]

So one of my close friends in college, a strong conservative with a good head on her shoulders amongst my democratic deplorables, called me on day of the Oklahoma City bombing. Her brother, a fire fighter had been found dead along with another fire fighter and two other roommates in a home they were renting in CT that mysteriously burned down. Upon autopsy, it was discovered bfore the fire all had been shot, and the fire likely set as a cover-up. Initially pro death penalty, through the course of the trial she not only became against the death penalty, but now is one of the nation strongest advocate speaking the circuit on it. She also gave up her six-figure tech job to become a social worker for the woke.

Tread on this topic lightly, lest you become a liberal.

 

[W54/XM-388]

if that is at all possible. Still alive? Yes, but severely traumatized. They have to live with it for the rest of their lives. Can they recover? Possibly, but it would be a Herculean effort for a complete recovery.

You might want to give a read of this article, it explains from first person testimonies how people can move on and overcome abuse and have peace and a good life.

The Journey to Healing

The Journey to Healing

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Also while today in modern times we are a bit soft and think bad things are the end of the world, we are actually living in one of the most peaceful and safe times ever compared to the whole of human existence. For thousands of years, people all over the planet endured horrific nightmarish things and had no choice but to get on with life and find a way to shove the past into a corner and do their best to survive and go forward.

 

[Fx51LP308]

So one of my close friends in college, a strong conservative with a good head on her shoulders amongst my democratic deplorables, called me on day of the Oklahoma City bombing. Her brother, a fire fighter had been found dead along with another fire fighter and two other roommates in a home they were renting in CT that mysteriously burned down. Upon autopsy, it was discovered before the fire all had been shot, and the fire likely set as a cover-up.

If you can, are there any details on the circumstances leading to the shooting/arson and why it happened? I ask, because those circumstances would form the basis of whether or not, IMHO, the defendants should face the death penalty. Motive for the crime is critical to this decision.

Initially pro death penalty, through the course of the trial she not only became against the death penalty, but now is one of the nation strongest advocate speaking the circuit on it. She also gave up her six-figure tech job to become a social worker for the woke.

Did she give any indication as to what caused her to change her mind? Was it a matter of "pro-death penalty until it affects me directly" or something like that? I've seen that happen. It would not happen to me as I'm committed to justice being served.

 

[Fx51LP308]

You might want to give a read of this article, it explains from first person testimonies how people can move on and overcome abuse and have peace and a good life.

The Journey to Healing

The Journey to Healing

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Also while today in modern times we are a bit soft and think bad things are the end of the world, we are actually living in one of the most peaceful and safe times ever compared to the whole of human existence.

Not when it comes to the sexual battery of a child. That's still as horrific as it ever was and ever will be. And, yes, I have talked with very many of them, having spent time in the pysch ward of several hospitals during my paramedic training and on my regular runs as an EMT. Furthermore, I'm also a direct witness to how parents can be totally cruel to innocent children while I'm in my tutoring session and I hear the parents yelling & screaming at them on the audio track. Point being, there is still a ton of evil in this world, no matter how "safe and peaceful" we might all think think things have become.

I think we should "agree to disagree" at this point. Further discussion would be unproductive.

 

[LuckyLuke80]

AI Overview

The statement "Sarah turns to salt after looking back at all the gay people burning in Sodom" is incorrect; in the Bible story, it is actually Lot's wife who turns into a pillar of salt after looking back at the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, not Sarah, and the story does not explicitly mention the sexual orientation of the people in the cities.

Uh…sodom is where we get the term “sodomy”. They most definitely were vile disgusting perverts and homos.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Uh…sodom is where we get the term “sodomy”. They most definitely were vile disgusting perverts and homos.

Also in the biblical account, the mob of Sodomites besieged Lot's house wanting him to turn over the messengers of God that were staying with him so they could have their way with them. Lot (being a perfect middle eastern coward) offered to turn out his daughters and let the mob have their way with them instead, but the mob didn't want none of that female stuff, they wanted some man flesh.

 

[GreenGO Juan]

You are correct. IMHO the Bible says not to murder, and there is plenty of righteous killing in the Old Testament. It is not that some people don't need to be kilt, it's that once they're imprisoned and no longer a threat to the public they can become Christians and Christ can change their hearts and save their souls, even though their ass is gona stay locked up, and it's as simple as that. The Bible tells us that our purpose in life is to love God back as he loves us, but we live in time, and God does not. Once you believe you are charged with leading others to faith, and the clear theology to minister to the wicked and accept them as brothers is undeniable, and one of the biggest divorces from Judaism in that none can claim righteousness. Christianity is not a passive religion. God wants stuff from us, and demands we behave beyond what we are, and cleave to His justice, not our own.

From a human justice point of view God's justice doesn't track. The parable of The Vineyard, The Prodigal Son, etc. illustrates that God's love for us is that of a forgiving parent, and not a fair-minded citizen. I will admit that in my own journey I had big problems with this, because it isn't "fair", but when you consider grace and the sacrifice made for us..., none are good, no, not one, no one deserves grace and forgiveness. Passing judgement for your actions on this earth is in the purview of Man's Justice, while passing judgment on the disposition of someone's eternal soul is not. We are beaten over the head with this in the Bible right up to the point of the crucifixion and Christ forgiving criminals and inviting them into his kingdom washed clean of sin through their faith in Him.

The Socratic argument the compliments the Christian's discomfort with the death penalty is that since death is a final and irreversible punishment it is only suitable for a perfect and flawless justice that does not make mistakes, and you won't really find anyone who believes a judicial system can provide that unless they make government into their god. If you accept that government is a necessary evil, but an evil nonetheless, giving it the power to make irreversible decisions (like the power to kill it's citizens even if a majority believe they deserve it) is just stupid.

So while I am against the Death Penalty for the above reasons, it isn't a hill I'm willing to die on, because when I hear about the heinous nature of crimes and the sometimes overwhelming evidence I want them dead too... Then again, I'm a very bad Christian. It's a work in progress...

Nailed it.

 

[LuckyLuke80]

Also in the biblical account, the mob of Sodomites besieged Lot's house wanting him to turn over the messengers of God that were staying with him so they could have their way with them. Lot (being a perfect middle eastern coward) offered to turn out his daughters and let the mob have their way with them instead, but the mob didn't want none of that female stuff, they wanted some man flesh.

Exactly. Started to say that as well, but left off with my comment. You are biblically correct on that though.