Reloader 17 in 308 win 168gn and up?

[chefcam864]

All of my loads are built on Benchmark, H-489, and RL 15. The problem is supplies locally are dried up for the moment, and I'm limited to RL17 and 4064. I only use Benchmark for 155 Palma's, but use 15 and 4895 for everything heavier (175 Berger VLD and 178 A-max). I plan on attending an F/TR match in April and only have about a LB of 15 and No 4895 left, and 4064 has not performed well for me recently. What has your experience been with RL 17 in 308, is it good? Great? How does it meter through a Harrel's culver meter?
Thanks for any info you'd like to share, Casey.

 

[ChrisGarrett]

All of my loads are built on Benchmark, H-489, and RL 15. The problem is supplies locally are dried up for the moment, and I'm limited to RL17 and 4064. I only use Benchmark for 155 Palma's, but use 15 and 4895 for everything heavier (175 Berger VLD and 178 A-max). I plan on attending an F/TR match in April and only have about a LB of 15 and No 4895 left, and 4064 has not performed well for me recently. What has your experience been with RL 17 in 308, is it good? Great? How does it meter through a Harrel's culver meter?
Thanks for any info you'd like to share, Casey.

Generally, RL-17 is best with the heavier bullets, like the 208gr AMAX in the 308 Win. cartridge. With the lighter bullets, it might be a tad slow, but what the heck...give it a go, but don't expect much, would be my thought on the matter.

Chris

 

[melloyello]

Well, if you want some velocity numbers w/ 175gr you can look here. http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/showthread.php?t=175469
Those came from my 20" AAC-SD. RL-17 meters a bit better than Varget but not by much. You get more punch out of RL-17 than Varget w/o filling your cases completely. With Varget I wasn't able to get the velocity I wanted even when I started to compress the powder so I went to RL-17. I haven't picked my charge for it yet but I have two in mind I hope to test this weekend.

 

[chefcam864]

Thanks for the info! I guess I'll give it a go (like I have a choice). I've been running 43.5gn of RL15 with a 178 A-max. It shoots great, but I've only had it to 200 and haven't had a chance to chrono yet.

 

[chefcam864]

I forgot to mention that my bbl is a 12 twist, so I doubt I could shoot much heavier than 185gn. The upcoming match is a 300 yard reduced course, so I think I can use 155 SMK's (not Palma) and be just fine. I like Benchmark for the 155's so Imight be able to wait it out until more RL15 becomes available. However, I'm kinda curious aboout RL17 still..

 

[melloyello]

My main reason for the RL-17 is I couldn't get anymore velocity out of varget with my short barrel w/o compressing my powder. Even after I tried a couple of compressed loads it didn't net enough. I will save the varget for my 178gr amax for 600yds or less. That's a 43gr charge that averages 2423fps so far. I wanted to see at least 2500fps but varget and 20" just wouldn't cut it. Powder was being compressed at 45.5gr so the only thing I knew to do was to keep the info I had w/ those bullets and that powder and move on to something else. My brother can shoot the 178 amax I am now going to use 175smk and RL-17. I wasted quite a bit of powder, bullets and time b4 I figured out I was better off going this route. But, only time will tell how temperature sensitive this powder is and how precise it will end up out to 1000yds.

 

[idaho1]

I used RL-17 and 168 gr. bullets with very good velocities out of a 20 inch 1:10. 2828fps.

 

[chefcam864]

I'll grab a can on the way home today and do some workups. Who knows, it might end up being my go to powder for 175's & 178's

Anybody had a chance to try the 178 A-max at 1k? They're about all I can get my hands on right now. The match in April will be my first, so I'm kinda glad it is only 300 yards, but I'll be heading to Butner ASAP.

 

[P7id10t]

I've been interested in RL17 too. DPMS L308-T, 16" barrel
Methinks it'll be too slow burning for such a short barrel, which would result in lower than expected velocities (expecting MV < 2,200 FPS) and also a loud report with each shot.

Here are starting loads I'm going to be testing this weekend, working up from min to max in approx 1/2 grain increments.

Bullet	Weight	Caliber	Powder	COL	Grains	Max Grs
Sierra Match King	175	.308"	N550	2.8000	39.6	45.8
Sierra Match King	175	.308"	IMR 4064	2.8000	41.5	45.6
Sierra Match King	175	.308"	RL17	2.8000	47.5	48.5

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</tbody>

I'll post results afterward.

 

[chefcam864]

I've been interested in RL17 too. DPMS L308-T, 16" barrel
Methinks it'll be too slow burning for such a short barrel, which would result in lower than expected velocities (expecting MV < 2,200 FPS) and also a loud report with each shot.

Here are starting loads I'm going to be testing this weekend, working up from min to max in approx 1/2 grain increments.

Bullet	Weight	Caliber	Powder	COL	Grains	Max Grs
Sierra Match King	175	.308"	N550	2.8000	39.6	45.8
Sierra Match King	175	.308"	IMR 4064	2.8000	41.5	45.6
Sierra Match King	175	.308"	RL17	2.8000	47.5	48.5

<colgroup><col><col span="3"><col><col><col></colgroup><tbody>
</tbody>

I'll post results afterward.

Thanks for the post, and be sure to keep us posted on your results.

 

[Chanonry]

idaho

I have used RL17 with 208 gr's. Basically the load seems to be fill the case and seat the bullet. What load did you start with and where were you finding max? I will do my own development as it is a new rifle but I would appreciate a steer on starting and likely end points

A

 

[3-0-hate]

I started a thread asking the same thing a while back and got almost no info. Glad to see this thread pop up, as I got a 5lb jug of RE-17 and 2k primers in trade for an old pelican case I was no longer in need of.

 

[chefcam864]

Well, I had a wedding to attend in Charleston, so I've been out of town for 5 days and haven't had a chance to load or shoot. I finally got around to loading, and have 21 rds loaded and ready to test. They are as follows:
All loads are 178 A-max @ 2.860" (coal)
Match prepped Win brass
BR2
3x 44.0gn RL 17
3x 45.0gn RL 17
3x 46.0gn RL17
3x 47.0gn RL 17
3x 47.5gn RL17
3x 48.0gn RL 17
3x 48.5gn RL 17

I'll shoot for groups at 200 while watching for pressure signs. When I find the node I'll work up in .3gn increments to find best accuracy and chrono

 

[melloyello]

You may want to load up to 49gr also. I didn't see any pressure signs up to 49.3gr. Of course, if you see pressure signs b4 that then don't shoot them. That's the highest I loaded and settled on 48.7gr. All this was out of a 20" 700 barrel/1:10 twist. Lots of room in that chamber so pressures tend to stay lower. Bad thing is so does velocity. Velocity was 2698fps at 49gr.

 

[chefcam864]

I shot the test loads today, and all I can say is that I am quite pleased with the results!

I found a nice node between 47.0 gn(0.256") to 47.5 gn(0.284"). the groups opened up to 0.718" at 48.0 gn, but tightened back up to 0.255" at 48.5 gn. Unfortunately, bolt lift was quite sticky and the primers flattened at 48.5, so I'll work up in .3gn increments between 47.0 and 48.0 to see what is going to work best.

A guy I chat with on M14forum worked this up for me with QuickLoad:

as you can see the velocities are quite nice.
He's done four loads with the software for me over the past year, and they have all been within 25fps of actual chrono results. I'll chrono next week, and let you guys know what I come up with. If I really get 2750 fps out of this it WILL be my F/TR powder!

 

[JGorski]

Try some CFE223 or 2000MR if you can get your hands on some, works very well with heavier bullets in the 308. Good velocity and no pressure signs from my testing.

 

[chefcam864]

The reason I tried 17 in the 1st place was because I can't get my hands on much of any kind of powder at the moment, but thanks for the heads up.

 

[glock63]

If my berger 185 OTM tactical bullets ever show, I am going to try pushing them with the RL17 I picked up last week. I think it should work well in my 22 barreled .308.

 

[chefcam864]

I had a chance to chrono today and the results didn't jibe with QL.
I was surprised as hell, be cause the software has always been so close in the past.
Anyways, the results are listed below

All loads
RE 17
178 A-Max @ 2.252" (ogive)/ 2.865" coal (.015" longer than was calculated)
Win Brass uniformed, deburred, necks turned to .0135"
BR2

46.5gn
Average: 2575
ES:27
SD: 10.8

46.8gn
Average: 2610 (chrono got a little cooky on this string, so I had to make some adjustments)
ES:43
SD:19.73

47.1gn
Average:2595
ES:30.6
SD:12.6

47.4gn
Average:2606
ES:30.97
SD:12.6

47.7gn
Average:2642
ES:37
SD:17.1 (this group had one outlier @ 2665 otherwise AVG, ES & SD would be 2634, 17, and 9.2 respectively)

These were only 5 round groups, so there is not much I can infer statistically, but I was surprised the velocities were so far off from QL. It was 48 degrees today, so I'm sure that had some effect. I don't think that the .015" difference in oal would account for nearly 100 FPS. But, who knows? 47.1 & 47.4 both shot in the low 2's, so I'd say RE 17 rocks in 308, and it gives me about 50-80 fps more velocity than I was getting at 43.5gn of RE 15. However, according to my Shooter App, the A-max is going transonic at 1,000 yards, so I'm not sure what to expect...

I really I don't know how LR benchresters and F classers get such low SD's & velocity spreads. I weighed all the charges on a tuned Ohaus 505, seated the primers fully and carefully (I have a good feel for this at this point), and all the bullets were seated within .001" of each other (confirmed with comparator). I'll try federal 210(m) since I just picked 1k of them, but I'd be surprised if that brings it down too much. The spreads aren't bad, but I'm afraid that they will cause a lot of vertical at 1,000. I might try the Lapua Palma cases with the Small primer when it warms up.

Any suggestions to lower ES/SD?
Are these decent velocities for a 178gn pill out of a 26" bbl? I feel like I should be a little faster, but in reloading a lot of times you gotta take what you can get. It was 48 degrees today,so that may have had some effect.

 

[chefcam864]

I also should add that I don't have complete trust in my chronograph (Chrony Beta Master) It's been very problematic in the past as far as throwing errors and insane velocities(400 fps in 10mm, 4300fps in 168 308 from M1A). However, it tends to work pretty well on overcast days like today. It did not throw one error message and velocities were fairly consistent, if not considerably lower than expected. A buddy just picked up the MagnetoSpeed, so i'm itching to try it. Probably gonna send my Chrony back to the factory, again.

 

[jsthntn247]

Shoot the groups at 600 (or as far as you can) and see what you got. The hell with the crony, shoot em and go with the one that works best.

 

[melloyello]

Numbers look about right to me. I shot a ladder test on 2/23/13 using 175smk/RL-17 in Remington and Winchester cases in my 20" aac-sd. Very roomy throat on this one. 63°F that day, Chrono @ 15ft
46.5 = 2521
47 = 2552
47.5 = 2565
48 = 2584
48.5 = 2630
49 = 2698
No pressure signs up to this point but powder was just entering the throat.
I ended up settling on 2 nodes and loaded up 47.8gr and 48.7gr because both seemed fast enough for me and were in the middle of nodes.
47.8gr has an average of 2573 with a spread of 39-42 after 1 round of testing @ 52°F.
48.7gr has an average of 2615 with a spread of 18-36 after 4 rounds of testing from 48°F-63°F.
I see a lot of people throwing out low ES numbers and it makes me wonder if they are just testing once or are they just posting their best round of testing?

 

[chefcam864]

Shoot the groups at 600 (or as far as you can) and see what you got. The hell with the crony, shoot em and go with the one that works best.

I'm with you on that one, but I have no access to anything more than 200 yards right now, I feel like I'm heading to Butner kind of blind, but we shall see...

 

[chefcam864]

Numbers look about right to me. I shot a ladder test on 2/23/13 using 175smk/RL-17 in Remington and Winchester cases in my 20" aac-sd. Very roomy throat on this one. 63°F that day, Chrono @ 15ft
46.5 = 2521
47 = 2552
47.5 = 2565
48 = 2584
48.5 = 2630
49 = 2698
No pressure signs up to this point but powder was just entering the throat.
I ended up settling on 2 nodes and loaded up 47.8gr and 48.7gr because both seemed fast enough for me and were in the middle of nodes.
47.8gr has an average of 2573 with a spread of 39-42 after 1 round of testing @ 52°F.
48.7gr has an average of 2615 with a spread of 18-36 after 4 rounds of testing from 48°F-63°F.
I see a lot of people throwing out low ES numbers and it makes me wonder if they are just testing once or are they just posting their best round of testing?

Mello, the thing is, I have 6" more bbl than you. Surely we should not have velocities that close for the same powder charge. If I got those numbers from a 20" bbl I'd be thrilled. I did go to 48.3 in initial testing, but bolt lift was beginning to get a bit sticky, and it was shooting just as well at 47.5. Like you, I did notice numbers start to climb dramatically with small increases in charge weight as I began to approach 48.0gn. I just wonder if my chronograph is correct??? QuickLoad has never been that far off for me in the past. I'm getting 2,555 with 43.5gn of RE 15 which is about 150 fps faster and 2.5gn over what hornady has listed as a max in their manual. I just really feel like I should be getting more velocity out of a 26" bbl. I push 168's out of my M1A with a 22" bbl at 2615 fps with 41.5gn of H4895. It just seems a little off to me.

I also wonder about the low spreads and SD's guys put up. I load very carefully and sort /prep my brass more than most, but I've never been able to achieve tight spreads like others purport to do. It does seem that spreads tighten up a little as the case is filled closer to max. I'm going to try these same loads with a Fed 210(M) and see if that helps. BR2's are great, but they're a little hot which doesn't always work so great with a case full of slow burning powder. That's always baffled me a bit, as common sense would have one believing the opposite to be true...

 

[melloyello]

I sometimes question my chrony also. I am using an Alpha Chrony and have seen as much as 100fps difference on sunny vs cloudy days. I would expect to see somewhere around 120-150fps difference in your barrel and mine. Maybe your chrono was reading a little low that day? I don't know. I chrono all my charges when I do my ladder or OCW testing, group testing and a couple of times after that. I will run at least 70-90 bullets over the chrono. There will be 25-30 for ladder, 25-30 for grouping and probably another 25-30 shooting at distance to test reality vs calculator. I like to take an average over all of those times. Maybe that's why I have higher ES #s than some others post up, I don't know. After all that it's just time to have fun and do some shooting.

 

[chefcam864]

I did some more testing today and the numbers are still slower than expected, but ES and SD were much improved after a switch to Fed 210(M) primers from BR2's.

47.5 RE17
178 A-Max 2.252" (ogive)
Win Brass uniformed, deburred, necks turned to .0135"
Fed 210(M)

1. 2652 6. 2660 Average: 2651 fps
2. 2644 7. 2638 ES: 27.89 fps
3. 2666 8. 2644 SD: 8.88 fps
4. 2651 9. 2652
5. 2661 10. 2645

I'm still not getting the velocity I think I should out of a 26" bbl, but it shoots great and the spreads are improved. I swear I don't know how ppl get single digit ES...

 

[melloyello]

Almost forgot that I shot 2 ladder tests. The first showed 2565fps and the second showed 2525fps for 47.5gr RL-17 under 175SMK. 63°F on the first and 48°F on the second.
Looking at my numbers and your numbers there is a 100fps difference. That's not far off from what I would expect to see. Just because you have a longer barrel doesn't mean you will have a lot higher velocity than I will. There is more to it than just barrel length. There is neck tension, distance to lands, primers, distance to chronograph, fire-formed brass vs FL sized brass, etc. It all has to do with timing, expansion and ability to burn off all the powder.

 

[chefcam864]

Thanks Mello. I'm ok with the velocity. I just thought it would be higher... I tell you what's odd is that I only get 2,555 with 43.5gn of RE15 with a 178 A-Max. I might need to bump that up a bit. However, when I was doing workups things got a little sporty at 44.0gn (slightly sticky bolt lift, LOUD report). That just seems a bit off to me. I need to take a mic with me to the range and measure case head expansion.

 

[Deadshot2]

If my berger 185 OTM tactical bullets ever show, I am going to try pushing them with the RL17 I picked up last week. I think it should work well in my 22 barreled .308.

That combo sure worked well in my 24"barreled .308. Wish I was able to lay my hands on both the Berger 185's and RL-17. I'll just have to wait until the supplies return. As they say, "Maybe Next Year".

 

[DetroitRearView]

tag thanks

 

[1spot]

Re 17 really shines with heavy bullets. I loaded up 215 bergers in front of 49 gns for a velocity of 2675. It was a little warm for my taste. I also was finding nodes in the 47-48 gn range putting me just under 2600.

 

[SWThomas]

I'll have to try this out. My LGS has tons of R17 on the shelves. I guess people don't know it works for 308.

 

[chefcam864]

I'll have to try this out. My LGS has tons of R17 on the shelves. I guess people don't know it works for 308.

It does work quite well, but I have since learned that it is a bit temp sensitive. That matters more to some than others. With a 175-185 you'd still be hard pressed to run into pressure issues (my opinion based on my experience. There is no sub for testing). I ran out of case capacity before I ran into pressure

 

[Deadshot2]

I I ran out of case capacity before I ran into pressure

This is the conclusion arrived at when RL-17 was first reviewed on Accurateshooter.com. Not enough "room in the boiler" for too much pressure.

 

[jfields]

I ran 49.2 grains of RL17 under a 178 AMAX. Velocity was a 2710 out of a 20" Krieger and it hammered out to 1000 yards at sea level. During load development I had several 3 and 5 shot groups measure .3 or better. I had them set at 2.810 COAL. This was in Winchester brass and 210M primers.
I re-barreled to a 6CM this past season and gave my buddy what I had left. They shoot almost as good in his stock 700 SPS.

-J

 

[Vio515]

178s at the grand work quite well. Im a novice f/tr shooter and I can score in the high 300s and low 400s with them. My wind calls needs some help though. My 308 load is supersonic to 1050 yards in the winter and to about 1150 in the summer. Winter (30-40 F) velocity is about 2650-2675 and summer (85-90 F) about 2750. I run 44grns RL15.

 

[chefcam864]

178s at the grand work quite well. Im a novice f/tr shooter and I can score in the high 300s and low 400s with them. My wind calls needs some help though. My 308 load is supersonic to 1050 yards in the winter and to about 1150 in the summer. Winter (30-40 F) velocity is about 2650-2675 and summer (85-90 F) about 2750. I run 44grns RL15.

You should jump on the 185 Berger LRBT train. It's a great bullet; easy to tune, great accuracy, and unbeatable BC for its weight class. I'm a novice TR shooter myself, and I definitely noticed the difference at 1k shooting it back to back with the 178.

 

[Aimsmall55]

Here's a good node I found with a 208 amax and 47.3 r17. Lapua brass fgm210m. WORK UP ... Is a hot load! Shot out of a custom .308 with a 28" bartlein 1:11.25 twist.
Ismh, with 47 grains of power pro 2000 mr I'm getting 2830 with the 185 juggernauts. It also seems to be a little less temp sensitive than r17

 

[wahoo]

Remmington 700 sps aac factory w/ 16.5" barrel

100yds 165gr nosler bal.tip 47gr Rl17 primer cci 250 OAL 2.82 group .160

I was not very impressed till this came out of my barrel.

 

[Mumbles]

Anyone noticed any adverse effects from shooting this through a semi-auto? I've shot a little through my MWS, but not much.

 

[Deadshot2]

Anyone noticed any adverse effects from shooting this through a semi-auto? I've shot a little through my MWS, but not much.

Shouldn't be a problem if you're getting a good burn on the powder. Problem with the slower powders in semi's comes from any unburned powder that remains in the barrel and action.

I used to have a helluva problem when shooting my Rem 1100 shotgun when I used the slower powders. Unburned powder would eventually work it's way into the firing pin channel and then every other round or so would misfire.

I save my RL-17 for 185 gr and heavier.

 

[prieto9000]

I just tried 178 eldm’ s and rl-17 and the results were amazing. 2700fps with an awesome group.
tikka T3x varmint
20” factory barrel and little bastard break.

 

[Steel head]

 

[eldest584]

I just tried 178 eldm’ s and rl-17 and the results were amazing. 2700fps with an awesome group.
tikka T3x varmint
20” factory barrel and little bastard break. View attachment 7234045View attachment 7234046

What was your COL and how much were you crushing powder?

 

[FLIGHT762]

^^^^See post #35 from 2014. ^^^^

 

[eldest584]

I'll be contributing to this thread tomorrow with my own data. Unfortunately I won't be using my own rifle, I'll be using a friends as I'm trying to do some load development for him.
Bullet: 178eldx
COAL: 2.820" about
BTO: 2.154" or something like that
Headspace: 1.620" with Hornady Headspace guage (.005" bump, I know it's large)
Brass: Hornady (not that great, super tight primer pockets)
Trimmed: 2.005"
Primer: CCI 200
Powder: RL-17, charges from 49.5 grns to 44grns in .5grn increments.
Rifle: buddies Rem700 AAC-SD 20" 1:10 .308
Scope: my Vortex AMG 6-24

I'll confirm measurements in the morning when I wake up. And I'll report velocities and groups after my range trip tomorrow. Think I'll just shoot for groups and chrono at the same time with a magneto speed v3.

Also note: almost all the charges at 45.5grns and above were compressed. On the lower end I could just barely hear some powder crunching, but still hear the powder have enough room to shake. I think like 46.5+ it was all pretty compressed with no room. Ended up having to adjust seating die a couple thousandths each time I went up in a charge to keep the OAL close to 2.820 for mag length restrictions.

 

[eldest584]

I'll be contributing to this thread tomorrow with my own data. Unfortunately I won't be using my own rifle, I'll be using a friends as I'm trying to do some load development for him.
Bullet: 178eldx
COAL: 2.820" about
BTO: 2.154" or something like that
Headspace: 1.620" with Hornady Headspace guage (.005" bump, I know it's large)
Brass: Hornady (not that great, super tight primer pockets)
Trimmed: 2.005"
Primer: CCI 200
Powder: RL-17, charges from 49.5 grns to 44grns in .5grn increments.
Rifle: buddies Rem700 AAC-SD 20" 1:10 .308
Scope: my Vortex AMG 6-24

I'll confirm measurements in the morning when I wake up. And I'll report velocities and groups after my range trip tomorrow. Think I'll just shoot for groups and chrono at the same time with a magneto speed v3.

Also note: almost all the charges at 45.5grns and above were compressed. On the lower end I could just barely hear some powder crunching, but still hear the powder have enough room to shake. I think like 46.5+ it was all pretty compressed with no room. Ended up having to adjust seating die a couple thousandths each time I went up in a charge to keep the OAL close to 2.820 for mag length restrictions.

Well boys, the results were absolutely terrible out of my buddies rifle. I think I narrowed down the problem to his rem700 being a pile of shit. Legitimately best 5 shot groups were like 2-4moa out of my buddies rifle. Had overpressure issues with ejector smear at like 45.5grns of rl17. Ran the highest charge loads, 49.5-48 in my AI AT 308 barrel. Groups were about 3/4" which is about all I'm ever able to get my AI to shoot those 178 eldxs. The 175 SMKs shoot like 1/4 moa out of the AI.

Back to my buddies PoS rifle, the loads I shot I was getting ES velocity spreads of like 55fps, obviously SDs about half that. The rounds I fed through my AI I had SDs between 9 and 11. I really think something is fucked up on my buddies rifle, because I had no pressure signs shooting 48, 48.5, 49 and 49.5 grains of rl17, beyond compressed loads out of my AI. The Rem700 had craters from the get go at 44grns of rl17, pushing the bullets at like 2300fps, ejector smears at like 45.5 or something, and the occasional stuck case. Bolt lifts weren't bad at all, or even sticky for that matter. But trying to pull the bolt rearward on maybe 4 or 5 cases in total out of the 40 I fed through the rem700, was a pain in the ass. I think there are probably a host of problems with my buddies rem700, which caused problems with my load developmentowith rl17.

I'll go back here in a few weeks with my AI, lapua brass, and some sierra match kings and give the rl17 an actual chance.

I feel bad for my buddy though. He's a broke ass and just spent money upgrading the stock from the factory Tupperware to a magpul hunter 700 stock. Which are honestly fairly nice stocks for the price. Typical remington QC fishing out turds for the occasional buyer, screwing people over. It just sucks. The one I had ran awesome, shot anything you fed it.