Reloading Sequence - Does it really matter

[GunnyUSMC]

I have come across guys whose reloading sequence is a bit different from what i am used to. I get pretty good results (average SD of around 7-8) but there is room for improvement. I was wondering if sequence really matters. Consider the following:

My sequence = de-cap/prime, clean (wet tumble), anneal, FL size, neck size (two separate operations), mandrel, prime, and load
Sequence option 1 = de-cap, anneal, clean (wet tumble), FL size, neck size, mandrel, prime, load
Sequence option 2 = clean, de-cap, anneal, FL size, neck size, mandrel, prime, load
Sequence option 3 = de-cap, FL size, neck size, mandrel, trim (if necessary), clean, prime, load
Sequence option 4 = de-cap, clean, FL size, neck size, mandrel, clean (again), prime, load
Sequence option ??????

One of the considerations to sequence revolves around annealing causing a potential residue to form inside the neck (a metallurgy thing caused by heating then cooling metal) and the need to clean inside the necks after annealing. if cleaning is done near the end before priming, that should address that problem.

Any thoughts?

 

[Krob95]

Too many words make my head hurt. But this is how I’ve done it since day one with two exceptions (expander and annealing)

Clean (dry or wet)
Anneal
FL size with bushing die (sizes neck)
Dry tumble
Expand with mandrel
Trim/ chamfer, Debur (Giraud trimmer)
Prime
Powder
Seat bullets

Yeet and repeat.

 

[Baron23]

I have come across guys whose reloading sequence is a bit different from what i am used to. I get pretty good results (average SD of around 7-8) but there is room for improvement. I was wondering if sequence really matters. Consider the following:

My sequence = de-cap/prime, clean (wet tumble), anneal, FL size, neck size (two separate operations), mandrel, prime, and load
Sequence option 1 = de-cap, anneal, clean (wet tumble), FL size, neck size, mandrel, prime, load
Sequence option 2 = clean, de-cap, anneal, FL size, neck size, mandrel, prime, load
Sequence option 3 = de-cap, FL size, neck size, mandrel, trim (if necessary), clean, prime, load
Sequence option 4 = de-cap, clean, FL size, neck size, mandrel, clean (again), prime, load
Sequence option ??????

One of the considerations to sequence revolves around annealing causing a potential residue to form inside the neck (a metallurgy thing caused by heating then cooling metal) and the need to clean inside the necks after annealing. if cleaning is done near the end before priming, that should address that problem.

Any thoughts?

Why are you neck sizing in a separate step? Your FL die will compress the neck and your mandrels will open them back up to whatever you want. So, why separate neck sizing step?

 

[canezach]

Here's my process, which I'm my mind makes a logical step from one action to the next

I keep a Harvey deprimer in my range bag, so I deprime at the range. No sense having spent primers littering my garage for no reason

Next is clean. I wet tumble because, like the primers, I don't want to have to clean up my clean up. I use stainless chips, but I'm going to try some ceramic balls to see how they do. I tried dry tumbling with the ceramic and it was a lost cause, but maybe wet will work better. Cases get tossed into a pillowcase, which then gets treated like a Russian nesting doll so I don't beat them, or my dryer, up too much, but after about 5 minutes, the cases are completely dry inside and out.

Lube and FL size. I still use my trusty RCBS lube pad or Unique case lube. I use a Forster CoAx press to size and seat, but I have my RCBS single stage on my bench right next to it because...

As soon as I lift the handle and lower the ram, that piece of brass goes right into the RCBS, where I have a mandrel die so I can run the neck through, get the interior diameter perfectly round and set my neck tension. I am also putting a new piece of brass into the CoAx, so I'm sizing and mandreling (yeah, I'm making up that word) simultaneously. Mandrel gets a very light touch of Unique lube every 25 or so necks.

After mandreling, the brass gets set on my bench until I've done ten pieces. No special reason for ten pieces other than 5 seemed too small a pile and twenty seemed too many. I have an old sock I cut open, pour some rubbing alcohol onto the sock, and wipe off the case lube.

I run each piece through my Giraud to get a light chamfer and debur (deburr? Who cares how it's spelled) and trimmed if necessary.

Charges are thrown on my AutoTrickler, then bullets are seated.

I have an Annealeez, so I anneal every other firing. When I anneal, it's after tumbling.

 

[KnowNothing256]

OP, it's a little unclear what your goal is. There are various ways to measure improvement, but because you specifically mentioned it, I'm guessing you're talking about improving SD. In which case I can't help you, other than to say that Hornady said recently that they found changing components had the largest effect on SD.

However, if you're asking about efficiency, then I do have some ideas for you:
- Anneal first. No need to decap before that, you handle the cases the same number of times, and your concern about metallurgical residue from annealing is addressed by your first cleaning.
- Eliminate the separate neck sizing step; not sure why that's there. If it gives you better SDs and that's your goal, then keep it, but purely from an efficiency standpoint, it stands out to me as wasted effort. Your FL sizing die should be accomplishing this step, particularly if you're using a mandrel after that.
- This is actually a step away from efficiency, but I propose cleaning the lube off the cases. Up to you if you want to do so (you need to use a solvent or dry media vibratory tumbling, rotary tumbling risks beating up your sized case mouths), but lube can accumulate in your chamber and magazines, attract dirt/dust/carbon, then eventually lead to a reliability problem. If you only shoot slow-fire, then this probably doesn't matter and you can skip it.

 

[Haney]

Why are you neck sizing in a separate step? Your FL die will compress the neck and your mandrels will open them back up to whatever you want. So, why separate neck sizing step?

There is more than one style of FL die .

 

[Baron23]

There is more than one style of FL die .

Is there one without a neck sizing section…bushing or not?

Now, if the fine fella I addressed that question to comes back and says he uses bushing dies without the bushing and hence has to neck size before mandrel, I would then ask why he took the bushing out with the same rational that he’s adding a step that appears to not be needed.

Thank you for you input.

 

[Krob95]

Is there one without a neck sizing section…bushing or not?

Now, if the fine fella I addressed that question to comes back and says he uses bushing dies without the bushing and hence has to neck size before mandrel, I would then ask why he took the bushing out with the same rational that he’s adding a step that appears to not be needed.

Thank you for you input.

Either custom honed to not size the neck or bushing die with no bushing. Either way, not how I would do it but I don’t have the time to burn to add another stupid step to my process. I have enough as is

 

[CK1.0]

Wet-tumbling precision rifle cases is sacrilege IMHO. It peens the case mouths over multiple load cycles or if you tumble them too long. Pins, no pins, doesn't matter, eventually, it happens. Wet-tumble piles of blaster 9mm/5.56 shit for playing John Wick... not the cases you use to hit little targets multiple football fields away. Also, I doubt annealing is messing with the inside of the necks, but wet tumbling is for sure.

That should lower your SD a couple of numbers right there.

As has been mentioned, I don't get the redundant neck sizing either? ...and, do you not tumble off lube after sizing? If you do (and you should), then IMO, no mandrel until after the tumble to get the lube off (brass is soft, and it gets changed more than you think while getting tumbled after sizing).

Chamfer step? (I hope you're not seating fancy bullets without a quick chamfer so you get all the BC you paid for...)

 

[FredHammer]

Fuck me, are you that bored you post this?

 

[acudaowner]

mix it up and try different things the only constant I know of it your case needs to be able to hold it's next bullet , but cleaning the case , annealing and a lot of other things your round will still go bang with out those things and only you can tell what you like or don't like doing .

 

[Krob95]

Wet-tumbling precision rifle cases is sacrilege IMHO. It peens the case mouths over multiple load cycles or if you tumble them too long. Pins, no pins, doesn't matter, eventually, it happens. Wet-tumble piles of blaster 9mm/5.56 shit for playing John Wick... not the cases you use to hit little targets multiple football fields away. Also, I doubt annealing is messing with the inside of the necks, but wet tumbling is for sure.

That should lower your SD a couple of numbers right there.

As has been mentioned, I don't get the redundant neck sizing either? ...and, do you not tumble off lube after sizing? If you do (and you should), then IMO, no mandrel until after the tumble to get the lube off (brass is soft, and it gets changed more than you think while getting tumbled after sizing).

Chamfer step? (I hope you're not seating fancy bullets without a quick chamfer so you get all the BC you paid for...)

Do you have any quantified data to support the “peening” of the case mouths? Any tests or anything? I don’t and have never seen data to support that and regard it as a myth until otherwise proven wrong. I seen that thrown around a ton but have yet to see any different in my ammo, my buddies ammo, or anyone else’s ammo.

 

[canezach]

Wet-tumbling precision rifle cases is sacrilege IMHO. It peens the case mouths over multiple load cycles or if you tumble them too long. Pins, no pins, doesn't matter, eventually, it happens. Wet-tumble piles of blaster 9mm/5.56 shit for playing John Wick... not the cases you use to hit little targets multiple football fields away. Also, I doubt annealing is messing with the inside of the necks, but wet tumbling is for sure.

That should lower your SD a couple of numbers right there.

As has been mentioned, I don't get the redundant neck sizing either? ...and, do you not tumble off lube after sizing? If you do (and you should), then IMO, no mandrel until after the tumble to get the lube off (brass is soft, and it gets changed more than you think while getting tumbled after sizing).

Chamfer step? (I hope you're not seating fancy bullets without a quick chamfer so you get all the BC you paid for...)

Call me sacrilegious then because I wet tumble, and I still produce ammo below 10 SD and 20 ES. I also don't notice any peening, but I'm going to say that whole chamfer and deburr step removes it. As I said earlier, I'm running all my brass through my Giraud, do I've never seen these peened case mouths everyone rambles about and I'm in the 7-8 or lower SD range. Do you have any evidence that peened mouths are good for a few fps of SD, or is that speculation?

 

[Huskydriver]

Yea if you trim after wet tumbling guess what...no peened mouths....

 

[ma smith]

The peening I think has been documented with pins. Not sure about peening if you are just washing cases.

 

[Haney]

Is there one without a neck sizing section…bushing or not?

Now, if the fine fella I addressed that question to comes back and says he uses bushing dies without the bushing and hence has to neck size before mandrel, I would then ask why he took the bushing out with the same rational that he’s adding a step that appears to not be needed.

Thank you for you input.

Just one simple Fact, Forster will hone the neck out . Many great die makers out there , funny what they can do .

Experience is the best teacher.

 

[spife7980]

Just one simple Fact, Forster will hone the neck out . Many great die makers out there , funny what they can do .

Experience is the best teacher.

To what ends though?
Just so that you then have to size it again on a separate die?

It’s not the first step that’s being questioned, it’s the do it again step that’s being questioned.

 

[diggler1833]

You definitely will only know how you affected the results of your handloads by switching up a process and recording the results. All of us are going to have slightly different processes, and many of us are going to claim that our process is superior.

That being said; neck sizing - if you are starting with FL sizing and then running a mandrel through at the end - seems a bit redundant to me.

Last time I did my "precision rifle" brass prep, I wet tumbled the cases after depriming and prior to annealing. Usually I dry tumble. Everything else was the same. Accuracy stayed the same, load data stayed the same, DOPE stayed the same...but my ES and SD increased by about 30-40% in the two rifles I did this for. Next time I'll go back to my old way and see if my ES and SD go down again.

You can certainly find a wrong way to do things...but there is arguably more than one "right" way, as many top-level competitors have different processes from each other.

 

[Baron23]

To what ends though?
Just so that you then have to size it again on a separate die?

It’s not the first step that’s being questioned, it’s the do it again step that’s being questioned.

Exactly.

 

[CK1.0]

Do you have any quantified data to support the “peening” of the case mouths? Any tests or anything? I don’t and have never seen data to support that and regard it as a myth until otherwise proven wrong. I seen that thrown around a ton but have yet to see any different in my ammo, my buddies ammo, or anyone else’s ammo.

Call me sacrilegious then because I wet tumble, and I still produce ammo below 10 SD and 20 ES. I also don't notice any peening, but maybe that whole chamfer and deburr step removes it?

Yea if you trim after wet tumbling guess what...no peened mouths....

Some guys seem to be able to keep the peening at bay longer than others... like @Huskydriver some can get rid of it after wet tumbling with a trim/deburr/chamfer step (those running a Giraud seem to get away with it the longest from the commets I've seen), until it gets really bad at least.

But, after many firings (let's say 10+), it rears its ugly head, and then requires one to trim the cases back substantially in order to get rid of it.

The only "data" I can present is the myriad/numerous threads all over the interenet on every rifle forum ...and every guy I know who holds onto their brass for a long time and who gets a bunch of firings/cycles out of it.

Search one of the 'zillion threads out there and you'll see that it's not just me... other than a few outliers here and there, it's a fairly universal issue for rifle guys who wet tumble.

Believe me, I wanted to continue wet tumbling since the brass comes out so nice. I tried using less cases, more cases, less water, more water, less pins, more pins, no pins, putting tennis balls in the tank to take up volume, pieces of foam in the tank to take up volume, slowing down the tumbler, you name it... finally, I switched to dry tumbling, and it hasn't happend since and my SD/ES numbers all got noticably better.

 

[Huskydriver]

Some guys seem to be able to keep the peening at bay longer than others... like @Huskydriver some can get rid of it after wet tumbling with a trim/deburr/chamfer step (those running a Giraud seem to get away with it the longest from the commets I've seen), until it gets really bad at least.

But, after many firings (let's say 10+), it rears its ugly head, and then requires one to trim the cases back substantially in order to get rid of it.

The only "data" I can present is the myriad/numerous threads all over the interenet on every rifle forum ...and every guy I know who holds onto their brass for a long time and who gets a bunch of firings/cycles out of it.

Search one of the 'zillion threads out there and you'll see that it's not just me... other than a few outliers here and there, it's a fairly universal issue for rifle guys who wet tumble.

Believe me, I wanted to continue wet tumbling since the brass comes out so nice. I tried using less cases, more cases, less water, more water, less pins, more pins, no pins, putting tennis balls in the tank to take up volume, pieces of foam in the tank to take up volume, slowing down the tumbler, you name it... finally, I switched to dry tumbling, and it hasn't happend since and my SD/ES numbers all got noticably better.

There are def trade offs but part of the lesson I have learned was not to aggressively chamfur and debur. Just a slight chamfur and the bullets seat easy and the case mouth doesn't get as beat up. And to be fair I only take a few tho off every other or so reload and re chamfur slightly.

I'm not saying that wet tumbling is the answer, it's a answer that may more may not be worth it for your situation but my numbers are just as good. Also if my brass makes it to 10 reloads I'm stoked. My prmer pockets are usually done at 8

 

[fpgt72]

Does it matter, yes and no. You will not want to fill with powder before you put the primer in. But past things along those lines I really don't think so.

I will clean the brass when nothing else is going on, just to get it out of the way. I will also deprime if I am just looking for something to do, then put it back in the box to be used later.

Some of it matters others not so much.

 

[ma smith]

I'm wondering if the cartridge type matters -- for some of these issues like case mouth peening

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Why are you neck sizing in a separate step? Your FL die will compress the neck and your mandrels will open them back up to whatever you want. So, why separate neck sizing step?

I originally used a FL die that sized the body and neck when i was reloading just for my 6.5CR AR-10. When I built my new 6.5CR in a bolt gun, i wanted the option to NOT FL size and just size the neck. For that reason, i purchased the Redding Competition 3-die set that has one die for FL (body only), one die for neck (has micrometer to adjust how much to resize) and one for bullet seating.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Why this post, someone asked? Well the proof is in the result. It is very interesting to see the different perspectives and get some ideas where i could possibly improve both the process as well as the result. What really prompted me to make this post was a conversation i had with another precision shooter who de-caps and then anneals BEFORE cleaning. He swears by it but i was struggling with why.

So... to add a little more detail to my original post:

First of all, YES, there are a lot of steps i do that most do not. It has evolved over time through trial and error. I load appx 50 rounds at a time but i do not do all the steps in one setting. I break it up over days. It is time consuming but i feel it is worth it. When i am in my gun room, there are no distractions like phone, music, TV etc. It is a focus thing... a mental thing and something i am passionate about.

In the beginning, i reloaded for years without even knowing what an SD was. As I progressed from fun/recreational shooting into "Precision" shooting, i learned the hard way. Now my SDs average around 7-8. I am not satisfied though. I am taking steps to get me closer to a 3-4 average SD, at least for now.

Something else worthy of note is that I also take some one-time steps for new brass including deburring flash holes, and turning my case necks.

1. I use a wet tumbler. For years, i used a dry tumbler and was never really satisfied. When i first went with a wet tumbler, i tumbled longer than i should have (e.g. 4hrs) because that is what i used to do with the dry tumbler. That first batch was with Lapua SRP and the brass was toasted and had to throw it out. That was a hard lesson and since then, i kept my wet tumbling to 30min and life was much better.

2. I do chamfer ever so slightly so my bullets do not get marred during seating. However, i check my COAL regularly and never really need to trim.

3. I do clean the lube off of my brass but i do this by hand with a microfiber cloth. Silly i know but it gives me the opportunity to inspect my brass for anomalies.

For my last batch, i did change the sequence slightly i annealed (which i do for every load) before cleaning. Anxious to see if that makes any difference.

 

[CK1.0]

I usually anneal before cleaning, but I'm not sure it matters either way.

IIRC the AMP peeps said it's fine to do it either way as long as the brass isn't really dirty (like after a muddy match or something), and since for most of us, there are plenty of times when our brass barely hits the ground.

There has been some discussion on the forum as to whether annealing before sizing versus last is the best practice (before priming, dropping powder, and seating bullets), but even then, it doesn't seem to matter with guys seeing good results either way...

 

[Baron23]

I originally used a FL die that sized the body and neck when i was reloading just for my 6.5CR AR-10. When I built my new 6.5CR in a bolt gun, i wanted the option to NOT FL size and just size the neck. For that reason, i purchased the Redding Competition 3-die set that has one die for FL (body only), one die for neck (has micrometer to adjust how much to resize) and one for bullet seating.

Is that a body only die or a neck bushing die without any bushings installed? As far as I know, Redding type S Comp FL dies are bushing dies and in that case it goes back to my OG question regarding why use a neck only die if you are using a mandrel to reopen the neck. Just put a bushing in you FL die and then mandrel.

I guess I’m confused and missing something.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Is that a body only die or a neck bushing die without any bushings installed? As far as I know, Redding type S Comp FL dies are bushing dies and in that case it goes back to my OG question regarding why use a neck only die if you are using a mandrel to reopen the neck. Just put a bushing in you FL die and then mandrel.

I guess I’m confused and missing something.

It is a body only die and i remove the de-capping pin/expander ball because i have a separate and dedicated de-capping die used just to remove primers as my very first step.

Check out this link

Redding Competition 6.5 Creedmoor Bushing Neck Sizing, Body, Bullet

The Redding Competition Bushing Neck Sizer Die Set includes a Competition Bushing Neck Sizing Die, Body Die and Competition Seating Die. Both the...

www.midwayusa.com

 

[Krob95]

This is my preferred way:
1 Decap
2 Wet tumble clean
3 anneal (every other firing)
4 FL size
5 I use a mandrel vs expander ball
6 Trim with power trimmer
7 Prime
8 Load powder
9 seat bullet
10 shoot!!

You did not specify what type of annealer you’re using, but the fine folks at amp recommend annealing every time or just don’t bother. If they had the reason posted, I never saw it.

Why do you do it every other time vs every firing? Genuinely curious.

 

[Baron23]

It is a body only die and i remove the de-capping pin/expander ball because i have a separate and dedicated de-capping die used just to remove primers as my very first step.

Check out this link

Redding Competition 6.5 Creedmoor Bushing Neck Sizing, Body, Bullet

The Redding Competition Bushing Neck Sizer Die Set includes a Competition Bushing Neck Sizing Die, Body Die and Competition Seating Die. Both the...

www.midwayusa.com

Ah, got it. I see that set does come with a FL bushing die but I do get it. When you said Redding comp die set I was thinking this S type die set:

Competition Style Dies - Redding Reloading Equipment: reloading equipment for rifles, handguns, pistols, revolvers and SAECO bullet casting equipment

Reloading equipment for rifles, handguns, pistols, revolvers, custom dies, bullet casting equipment, powder measuring and weighing equipment, bullet seating dies

www.redding-reloading.com

I'm retired (you too?) and don't need to load on a tight schedule for a comp on the coming wknd so its kind of a hobby to me (maybe you too) and max efficiency isn't really my goal. I prob can do the same with less work but right now I'm enjoying it.

Best of luck.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

OH... i just decided to make another upgrade to my reloading process... you are gonna think i am crazy

Today, I measure my powder with a RCBS Chargemaster. It works great but i do see occasional over fills (which i put back) and it is accurate to 0.1gr. In my quest for precision with my loads, i made the decision to purchase an FX-120i scale which is accurate to 0.02gr. It is so sensitive, you can see an immediate response if just one granule of powder hits the pan. This is the same scale that is used with the auto-trickler. However, i am not buying the auto-trickler with it. Instead, i am going to get an initial load that is about 0.2gr shy of my target load using the Chargemaster, pour that into a pan on the FX-120i and then hand trickle the remaining fraction to get my load where i want.

yet another step in the process... but that is OK if my SDs show the kind of improvement i am hoping for.

Following that, i plan to replace my seating die with one used with an Arbor Press along with a micrometer to measure seating pressure of my bullets. The goal here is to be able to verify neck tension on my bullets.

I must be nuts...

 

[Baron23]

OH... i just decided to make another upgrade to my reloading process... you are gonna think i am crazy

Today, I measure my powder with a RCBS Chargemaster. It works great but i do see occasional over fills (which i put back) and it is accurate to 0.1gr. In my quest for precision with my loads, i made the decision to purchase an FX-120i scale which is accurate to 0.02gr. It is so sensitive, you can see an immediate response if just one granule of powder hits the pan. This is the same scale that is used with the auto-trickler. However, i am not buying the auto-trickler with it. Instead, i am going to get an initial load that is about 0.2gr shy of my target load using the Chargemaster, pour that into a pan on the FX-120i and then hand trickle the remaining fraction to get my load where i want.

yet another step in the process... but that is OK if my SDs show the kind of improvement i am hoping for.

Following that, i plan to replace my seating die with one used with an Arbor Press along with a micrometer to measure seating pressure of my bullets. The goal here is to be able to verify neck tension on my bullets.

I must be nuts...

Ok…yes, you’re crazy. Lol

You do realize that .02 gr of H4350 is like one kernel.

But, WTF…if you are entertaining yourself and having fun, go for it.

 

[Taylorbok]

about a year ago I took the step from a charge master lite to fx120 with AT4. I saw no noticeable SD reduction.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

Ok…yes, you’re crazy. Lol

You do realize that .02 gr of H4350 is like one kernel.

But, WTF…if you are entertaining yourself and having fun, go for it.

True but think about it... I am reloading with N550 at 40.6gr. If my scale is accurate up to .1gr then my load could actually be 40.5gr or 40.7gr. That means my load could have a spread of up to .2gr. If my load is off by .1gr, that equals 5 kernels (5x.02=.1). If my spread is actually .2gr (spread = 1xgr high to 1xgr low) then my load could be off by 10 kernels. I read in another thread that for a particular powder, 1 kernel would cause a MV change of appx 1.5fps (i acknowledge that this will vary by powder and just using these numbers to make a point). So in the end, I can rationalize my MV spread to be appx 15fps just due to the variance of the powder load alone. At 100/500 yards, that is nothing. As you go past 1,000yards, and especially at 1 mile, the change in impact can be considerable.

about a year ago I took the step from a charge master lite to fx120 with AT4. I saw no noticeable SD reduction.

Understood... I admit it is a risk and i also acknowledge that powder is just one variable that comes into play. I will be doing some testing by capturing MV at 1 kernel above target load, then 2 kernels, then 3 and so on just to develop sufficient data to determine more succinctly the benefit (or lack thereof) of this level of precision.

 

[ma smith]

I can rationalize my MV spread to be appx 15fps just due to the variance of the powder load alone

In practice, IMHO.. an Fx 120 won't improve your SD by 4fps overnight....

More closer to reality of what happens is that you reduce ES by way of removing a single, random bad round.

EG if you do a bunch of mk 262 clones following JRLB...and he was using a cheap scale...the fx 120 is not going to improve the SD of all those loads by 4...IE, its not going to take 24 gr varget with 77SMK from a known 10-12 SD load into a reliable 6 to 8 SD loads like a 6BR with 105 berger and 30 gr of Varget or whatever.

Maybe somebody else has a different experience, but I don't think those kind of magic wands exist.

Just my $0.02....YMMV, etc.

 

[Tokay444]

Yes, it REALLY matters.

 

[ma smith]

Yes, it REALLY matters.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

In practice, IMHO.. an Fx 120 won't improve your SD by 4fps overnight....

More closer to reality of what happens is that you reduce ES by way of removing a single, random bad round.

EG if you do a bunch of mk 262 clones following JRLB...and he was using a cheap scale...the fx 120 is not going to improve the SD of all those loads by 4...IE, its not going to take 24 gr varget with 77SMK from a known 10-12 SD load into a reliable 6 to 8 SD loads like a 6BR with 105 berger and 30 gr of Varget or whatever.

Maybe somebody else has a different experience, but I don't think those kind of magic wands exist.

I think I understand where you are coming from and basically agree...

For example, I have an AR-10 chambered in 6.5CM and a custom bolt gun also chambered in 6.5CM. I can run rounds from the same load batch in each and get different ES/SD/Groups. However, my current long term goal and efforts around precision is just focused on the bolt gun for ELR. I average a 7-8SD and .55-.8MOA groups. My bolt gun is capable of better and all i am trying to do is giver her what she needs to do exactly that.

I am sure that my AR-10 will benefit from this exercise but not to the same degree.

 

[kthomas]

Too many words make my head hurt. But this is how I’ve done it since day one with two exceptions (expander and annealing)

Clean (dry or wet)
Anneal
FL size with bushing die (sizes neck)
Dry tumble
Expand with mandrel
Trim/ chamfer, Debur (Giraud trimmer)
Prime
Powder
Seat bullets

Yeet and repeat.

Similar to mine, but I skip a couple of steps:

Clean (dry or wet) - I tumble with rice
Anneal
FL size with bushing die (sizes neck) & ball expander
Dry tumble
Expand with mandrel
Trim/ chamfer, Debur (Giraud trimmer)
Prime
Powder
Seat bullets

Many ways to go about it, no one "right way" OP

 

[Bacarrat]

Yes, it REALLY matters.

It's been proven over and over single kernel accuracy in the powder charge isn't going to do anything in your ES/SD. There are way too many other variables to take into account for it to even matter.

 

[Krob95]

Similar to mine, but I skip a couple of steps:

Clean (dry or wet) - I tumble with rice
Anneal
FL size with bushing die (sizes neck) & ball expander
Dry tumble
Expand with mandrel
Trim/ chamfer, Debur (Giraud trimmer)
Prime
Powder
Seat bullets

Many ways to go about it, no one "right way" OP

I am starting to move towards rice as I do not have to dry it for an hour in a toaster oven after tumbling. I dry tumble the second time to remove the case lube. But 100%. There’s a million ways to attack the process and turn out good ammo

 

[GIXXER2000]

I use the Bench source annealer. The only cases I anneal every firing are my 375CT Peterson brass. I am on the 8th firing with no issues. The Amp is a great piece of equipment but at this point with the years of experience I have i see no need to change. The thing you need to take care with the Bench source is not to over anneal. I spent some time at Shot Show many years ago talking with Peterson metallurgist about proper annealing.

 

[kthomas]

I am starting to move towards rice as I do not have to dry it for an hour in a toaster oven after tumbling. I dry tumble the second time to remove the case lube. But 100%. There’s a million ways to attack the process and turn out good ammo

I remove case lube with a quick wipe of a shop towel after sizing, but tumbling would certainly be easier. For some reason I don't like the idea of tumbling my brass again after I've sized it - but that's just one of my personal quirks.

 

[Tokay444]

It's been proven over and over single kernel accuracy in the powder charge isn't going to do anything in your ES/SD. There are way too many other variables to take into account for it to even matter.

That wasn’t the question. The question was sequence.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

am starting to move towards rice as I do not have to dry it for an hour in a toaster oven after tumbling. I dry tumble the second time to remove the case lube. But 100%. There’s a million ways to attack the process and turn out good ammo

I never thought of using rice to tumble. I did a search and found this thread "Anybody using rice to tumble?" with some interesting responses.

Probably the most interesting thing I read was in regards to how stainless steel media (used when wet tumbling) harms the inside of the neck. Basically they said that it gets the necks TOO CLEAN. So... to show my lack of experience in this regard, is there such a thing as the inside of the neck being too clean?

There are two key areas right now where I am trying to make improvements in my load development including consistent powder measure (discussed earlier) and neck tension. I totally get the processes involving neck bushings and neck turning/trimming and mandrels and how important they are for setting correct neck tension. However, one of the things I thought I was doing right is getting the entire case cleaned, including the insides of the neck. I used a vibratory tumbler with walnut media for the longest time then switched to a rotary tumbler with cleaning solution and SS media, which i really like.

Can someone please enlighten me on the thought around the downside of getting the inside of the necks TOO CLEAN?

 

[Tokay444]

If you seat your bullet before dumping your powder, you're not going to have fun once you get to the range.

 

[straightshooter1]

I never thought of using rice to tumble. I did a search and found this thread "Anybody using rice to tumble?" with some interesting responses.

Probably the most interesting thing I read was in regards to how stainless steel media (used when wet tumbling) harms the inside of the neck. Basically they said that it gets the necks TOO CLEAN. So... to show my lack of experience in this regard, is there such a thing as the inside of the neck being too clean?

There are two key areas right now where I am trying to make improvements in my load development including consistent powder measure (discussed earlier) and neck tension. I totally get the processes involving neck bushings and neck turning/trimming and mandrels and how important they are for setting correct neck tension. However, one of the things I thought I was doing right is getting the entire case cleaned, including the insides of the neck. I used a vibratory tumbler with walnut media for the longest time then switched to a rotary tumbler with cleaning solution and SS media, which i really like.

Can someone please enlighten me on the thought around the downside of getting the inside of the necks TOO CLEAN?

When the inside of the necks are "too clean" there's a substantial amount of resistance/friction that causes inconsistent seating depths. So, if you're after more consistent seating depths one would need to apply some kind of lube (like Imperial's dry lube) to the inside of the neck before seating. Also, when the necks are "too clean" there's the issue of cold welding where if the cartridge sits around for a long time before being firing, the copper jacket and the brass neck will tend to join and changing the way the internal ballistics function. If cartridges have "cold welded" before firing, one an simply put them in a seating die and break the weld with a slight adjustment to the seating die.

I use medium grain rice to dry tumble my brass (NEVER use Long Grain Rice!). I use it to remove my sizing lube (Imperial Sizing Wax) and polish the cases a little. The rice does a good job of removing the lube while it also does a good job of removing some of the burnt powder coating and leaves a very, very thin coating on the inside of the neck that really helps with bullet seating consistency. Though I don't really try to clean the inside of my cases (am not interested in having the inside sparkly clean), the rice cleans them out enough. And one of the nice things about dry tumbling with rice over other media, like walnut shells or corn com media, there not that dust to contend with.

 

[OREGUN]

I never thought of using rice to tumble. I did a search and found this thread "Anybody using rice to tumble?" with some interesting responses.

Probably the most interesting thing I read was in regards to how stainless steel media (used when wet tumbling) harms the inside of the neck. Basically they said that it gets the necks TOO CLEAN. So... to show my lack of experience in this regard, is there such a thing as the inside of the neck being too clean?

There are two key areas right now where I am trying to make improvements in my load development including consistent powder measure (discussed earlier) and neck tension. I totally get the processes involving neck bushings and neck turning/trimming and mandrels and how important they are for setting correct neck tension. However, one of the things I thought I was doing right is getting the entire case cleaned, including the insides of the neck. I used a vibratory tumbler with walnut media for the longest time then switched to a rotary tumbler with cleaning solution and SS media, which i really like.

Can someone please enlighten me on the thought around the downside of getting the inside of the necks TOO CLEAN?

I’ve always heard that some carbon on the necks acts to lubricate the bullet during seating. If you go too clean via some wet/soapy cleaning process, you’ll get more friction during seating than you want….resulting in inconsistent seating depths.

 

[ma smith]

Can someone please enlighten me on the thought around the downside of getting the inside of the necks TOO CLEAN?

As noted, basically metal to metal contact is high friction. perfectly clean brass means you theotrictially need a lubricant on the neck, not just the bullet seating but also using the mandrel. basically well covered by above two posters, but worthwhile to mention the mandrel issue as well. It's also relevant if prepping new brass, IMHO you typicall want to use a little something to lube the necks if you uniform them with a mandrel prior to loading them as virgin brass.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

When the inside of the necks are "too clean" there's a substantial amount of resistance/friction that causes inconsistent seating depths. So, if you're after more consistent seating depths one would need to apply some kind of lube (like Imperial's dry lube) to the inside of the neck before seating. Also, when the necks are "too clean" there's the issue of cold welding where if the cartridge sits around for a long time before being firing, the copper jacket and the brass neck will tend to join and changing the way the internal ballistics function. If cartridges have "cold welded" before firing, one an simply put them in a seating die and break the weld with a slight adjustment to the seating die.

I’ve always heard that some carbon on the necks acts to lubricate the bullet during seating. If you go too clean via some wet/soapy cleaning process, you’ll get more friction during seating than you want….resulting in inconsistent seating depths.

As noted, basically metal to metal contact is high friction. perfectly clean brass means you theotrictially need a lubricant on the neck, not just the bullet seating but also using the mandrel. basically well covered by above two posters, but worthwhile to mention the mandrel issue as well. It's also relevant if prepping new brass, IMHO you typicall want to use a little something to lube the necks if you uniform them with a mandrel prior to loading them as virgin brass.

Well shoot (pun intended).... Mission accomplished, learned something important. Makes sense now that i think about it

Thanks guys.