reloading?

[BruntBronze]

whats the consensus for learning to shoot better? Reloading precision for me is more expensive than crates of ammo. i have my 65 creedmoor for training, 65 WSM for fun, and a new 300 prc 60% done.

or should i train on a ar platform?

 

[Memberberries]

If you have limited time each week to spend on firearms related stuff and can afford to just buy ammo, you're better off spending it behind the rifle.

That said I reload because I can get better reloads than I can afford to buy as loaded ammo, also I load for odd calibers like my 257 Ocelot.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

257 Ocelot

Ok, you got me. I google'd that. Are you getting advertised velocities out of it? 3200 out of a necked up 223 case sounds ambitious.

On topic-
Just don't think you can reload to save money. If you're getting the accuracy you need out of factory offerings, there's very little added benefit for you.

 

[SalomonQST99]

Ok, you got me. I google'd that. Are you getting advertised velocities out of it? 3200 out of a necked up 223 case sounds ambitious.

On topic-
Just don't think you can reload to save money. If you're getting the accuracy you need out of factory offerings, there's very little added benefit for you.

You won't save money, but it will allow you to shoot more with better customized ammunition.

 

[EN2722]

IMHO, reloading is a long dark hole. There’s always another piece of equipment or trinket that makes your life easier or allows you to spend less time at a bench and more time out shooting.

With today’s reamers you can call around and have a barrel cut for factory ammo and have the same results.

Can you dial in a load? Sure, but how much time and money are you willing to throw at it?

 

[Memberberries]

Ok, you got me. I google'd that. Are you getting advertised velocities out of it? 3200 out of a necked up 223 case sounds ambitious.

On topic-
Just don't think you can reload to save money. If you're getting the accuracy you need out of factory offerings, there's very little added benefit for you.

I was able the speeds they have posted but I like the groups with sierra 90gr gamekings which settle in at a node at about 2975 out of my 18" ar barrel. I haven't run any 75gr to go for 3200 though.

I agree that reloading won't generally save you money unless you shoot an odd caliber with really expensive factory loads. It's another aspect of the hobby that you have to do because you want to not because it's cheaper.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Just don't think you can reload to save money. If you're getting the accuracy you need out of factory offerings, there's very little added benefit for you.

Depends on ammo price. Even 5.56 is 75 cents to a buck plus a round normally for good ammo. (Razor core Mk262, BHA Match, FGGM). Before COVID/Riots/Biden; 3 cents a primer, 9 cents for powder, 33 cents for a 77 gn SMK, 42 cents to reload a round. I'm still loading at 24 cents a round but loading from components I bought between, 6 and 15 years ago, MK118LR copy was in the 47 cent range.

Pros: better ammo, more ammo for the price, used to be able to add availability.
Cons: when did a box of 77gn SMKs go up to $165?, time to load about 20 hours for 1000 rounds (equipment dependent), component availability.

I have agreed with one shooter who said buying ammo gave him family time because of his work schedule. I laughed at the guy who said he made enough that loading ammo cost him money because his time (based on hourly income) was worth more than he saved.

Bottom line is that it is a decision you need to make knowing that you will buy equipment in the future that will save time. So you can break even on an amount of ammo, but when you buy more new equipment it has to earn its keep. For example 650 #2 with a Mr. Bulletfeeder will have to make about X quantity of rounds to break even at $775 for 1000 rounds. (.45 ACP Match ammo went up from $520 a 1000 a few years ago to $775 in February, so 77.5 cents a round.) Mix of new and used for $1200 machine plus component cost I don't have in front of me. I'll update it in a little bit.

 

[supraguy88t]

For me reloading is another hobby all by itself. Don't do it for the money savings because by the time you tool up you are better off just buying ammo BUT, I believe I produce better ammo for my gun specifically and more importantly can product ammo when I need it rather than having to go find it on a shelf.

 

[accurate obsession]

If your "crates" of factory ammo meet your accuracy expectations, go for it. I never liked being held to the mercy of the factory QC department. Rimfire ammo drives me nuts.

 

[DocRDS]

Reloading gives you options and another hobby. Try finding 200+ gr 300 win mag ammo, even in good times--its all 180. 308 in 175/185 with barnes or berger bullets. And those are popular calibers.

In good times match ammo is about a break even prospect--but of course you are limited to factory offerings.

Right now--yeah supplies are tight, but once you get primers--no ammo shortage at my house. No Varget/Retumbo but my IMR4064 is doing me good and I even snagged some 4350 for my new creed. Patietence and any bullet I have wanted wanders in to stock.

I found 308 Lapua brass at Cabelas.....

 

[Deleted member 113831]

If you have limited time each week to spend on firearms related stuff and can afford to just buy ammo, you're better off spending it behind the rifle.

That said I reload because I can get better reloads than I can afford to buy as loaded ammo, also I load for odd calibers like my 257 Ocelot.

What is the difference between the 25 Ocelot and the 25 TCU?

 

[308pirate]

whats the consensus for learning to shoot better? Reloading precision for me is more expensive than crates of ammo. i have my 65 creedmoor for training, 65 WSM for fun, and a new 300 prc 60% done.

or should i train on a ar platform?

Sell everything except the 6.5 Creedmoor, set aside enough cash for one or two training courses, then blow the rest of it on ammo.

 

[BadDogPSD]

With PRIME & Hornady match ammo being so good, I'd spend the $$ on some good training.
Also dry practice/dry fire will make you a better shooter once you know you are doing things correctly.

 

[supraguy88t]

With PRIME & Hornady match ammo being so good, I'd spend the $$ on some good training.
Also dry practice/dry fire will make you a better shooter once you know you are doing things correctly.

this is very true. knowing what I know now I would have taken more training early on. If you are good at reloading your ammo can be better than the factory stuff but practice and training is better us of time

 

[Memberberries]

What is the difference between the 25 Ocelot and the 25 TCU?

Mostly I think just overall length and the shoulder is maybe different. I'm having a hard time finding much online about the 25 tcu but I guess the Ocelot isnt much different. The TCU seems to be 2.5" which doesn't really fit in an AR mag.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Mostly I think just overall length and the shoulder is maybe different. I'm having a hard time finding much online about the 25 tcu but I guess the Ocelot isnt much different. The TCU seems to be 2.5" which doesn't really fit in an AR mag.

The case is what makes the cartridge. Overall length depends on any number of variables.

 

[SmartDonkey]

Reloading has saved me so much money.... The initial investment takes some time to pay off but does. People make it more complicated and expensive than it needs to be-, they buy way to many bullets and powders to try. And then they are always doing load development and switching things around.

I've had a few barrels that are difficult (and tried some temperamental bullets) but most of the time I get an excellent load with trying 1 bullet and 1 powder- and then just a few tests to tweak it from there. And you don't have to go into all the crazy things either....

When you could buy 223 for .30 cents it wasn't worth the time so I just used factory and saved brass.... But when you are getting into the $1.50 to $3 each you save money fast.

 

[Memberberries]

The case is what makes the cartridge. Overall length depends on any number of variables.

True, 3 minutes of Google gave me very little to go off of. The reason I chose the 257 Ocelot was a combination of barrel and die availability and it seemed like a fun cartridge to run in an ar15. I honestly hadn't heard of the TCU until this thread.

 

[Memberberries]

The case is what makes the cartridge. Overall length depends on any number of variables.

Got more info, the TCU shoulder angle is different and the TCU case is 0.060 longer. The diameter at the shoulder is also slightly different(not enough to really matter). Essentially they should be ballistic twins with the Ocelot optimized to fit in an ar15 magazine. You could convert tcu brass to ocelot if you wanted but lake city brass converts easy and is cheap.

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

Reloading is fun.
A decent reload is better than factory made gear, usually.

 

[47guy]

Reloading is fun.
A decent reload is better than factory made gear, usually.

i would have to respectfully disagree with you about the "reloading is fun" part....ive only been reloading going on 17yrs now and only enjoyed(or thought it was fun)for about 15mins(actually a couple of years lol)after the first year maybe 2 i really started loosing interest and by year 3 started to hate reloading...so much so that i stopped shooting for a few months....i reload because its a necessary evil but ive stream lined my loading process and cut out a LOT of things i did in the past.

 

[GrumpyOleFart]

i would have to respectfully disagree with you about the "reloading is fun" part....ive only been reloading going on 17yrs now and only enjoyed(or thought it was fun)for about 15mins(actually a couple of years lol)after the first year maybe 2 i really started loosing interest and by year 3 started to hate reloading...so much so that i stopped shooting for a few months....i reload because its a necessary evil but ive stream lined my loading process and cut out a LOT of things i did in the past.

I like tinkering, so it has never lost it's appeal.

 

[47guy]

I like tinkering, so it has never lost it's appeal.

i know a few guys that just love the tweaking aspect of loading...i do not anymore....im lazy LOL!

 

[Steel head]

i would have to respectfully disagree with you about the "reloading is fun" part....ive only been reloading going on 17yrs now and only enjoyed(or thought it was fun)for about 15mins(actually a couple of years lol)after the first year maybe 2 i really started loosing interest and by year 3 started to hate reloading...so much so that i stopped shooting for a few months....i reload because its a necessary evil but ive stream lined my loading process and cut out a LOT of things i did in the past.

 

[Steel head]

I reload because of the cost savings of 223 and pistol ammo and my propensity to shoot rifle cartridges with little factory load options.
It’s a necessary chore for me.

 

[308pirate]

Reloading precision for me is more expensive than crates of ammo.

LOL

 

[gunsnjeeps]

i would have to respectfully disagree with you about the "reloading is fun" part....ive only been reloading going on 17yrs now and only enjoyed(or thought it was fun)for about 15mins(actually a couple of years lol)after the first year maybe 2 i really started loosing interest and by year 3 started to hate reloading...so much so that i stopped shooting for a few months....i reload because its a necessary evil but ive stream lined my loading process and cut out a LOT of things i did in the past.

Stream lining is not doing benchrest prep on brass and keeping a standard load.

I knew a shooter who would play with a load and rifle for months, make the best group with two or three component combinations. Put them on an index card and sell it with the rifle, then buy a different rifle and start over. He had shot most of his life and decided he liked working up accuracy loads and tinkering more than shooting the same bug holes every day. He did have a couple of personal favorite rifles, his wife sold about 30 when he passed. She kept a couple that she shoots.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

In my first post I said I'd get back with a break down of costs. For my second Dillon 650 I'm in about $1200 for the used press, used dies, new case feeder, and new Mr. BulletFeeder. (The press was supposed to have a case feeder but the owner lost it. Early onset Alzheimer's and a move. The seller did let me know before shipping. Then the supply of used Dillon accessories evaporated due to covid. I lucked out on the new one from Gunbroker.) $1200 in hardware to "payoff". ASYM .45 ACP Match is $387.50 for 500 plus shipping, or 77.5 cents a round (I'm omitting shipping I think it is $30 flat rate.) My price for the load is $213 a thousand. Some components on hand, some on sale, reloading Starline brass from my first ASYM order and once fired from other shooters (Who buy ammo and don't reload.)

Doing the math at $775 a thousand rounds to buy it, and $1200 plus $213 a thousand to make it, I'm somewhere between 2100 rounds (78.4 cents a round) and 2200 (75.8 cents a round) where the hardware is "paid off". That doesn't count anything else I load on it.

My first press was an RCBS Rock Chucker. With BHA Match Ammo at $1 a round and late 90's component prices I broke even around a thousand rounds but it was much slower. I can deprime, size, and trim 1000 rifle cases in about an hour on a 650. It takes about 20 hours to do that on a single stage and RCBS trimmer. I skipped the faster trimmers like a Giraud to go to the Dillon. I haven't set up the Dillon load head yet but 50 an hour with my old powder dispenser and single stage. 200 and 300 yard ammo will be loaded with a powder dispenser.

 

[47guy]

Stream lining is not doing benchrest prep on brass and keeping a standard load.

I knew a shooter who would play with a load and rifle for months, make the best group with two or three component combinations. Put them on an index card and sell it with the rifle, then buy a different rifle and start over. He had shot most of his life and decided he liked working up accuracy loads and tinkering more than shooting the same bug holes every day. He did have a couple of personal favorite rifles, his wife sold about 30 when he passed. She kept a couple that she shoots.

I know A few shooters that can’t leave a good load alone too...burn up barrels tweaking on loads...which is fine if that’s what your into....I don’t want to tweak I want to shoot.

and I agree about your impression of steaming lining...along with not bench rest prepping brass I got rid of all the gadgets that for the shooting I do are a waste of time...you see I’ve been down the rabbit hole and it’s deep and a lot of it is a waste of time.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I know A few shooters that can’t leave a good load alone too...burn up barrels tweaking on loads...which is fine if that’s what your into....I don’t want to tweak I want to shoot.

and I agree about your impression of steaming lining...along with not bench rest prepping brass I got rid of all the gadgets that for the shooting I do are a waste of time...you see I’ve been down the rabbit hole and it’s deep and a lot of it is a waste of time.

I quit obsessing over shit as well. Do I have guns and loads that will do 1/4 moa all day if I do my part?...Fuck if I know.

You could give me a 1/4 moa rifle and I'd never know it.

I settled for good enough and loaded them by the hundreds.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Mostly I think just overall length and the shoulder is maybe different. I'm having a hard time finding much online about the 25 tcu but I guess the Ocelot isnt much different. The TCU seems to be 2.5" which doesn't really fit in an AR mag.

I believe you are correct about the TCU series not fitting in an AR Mag. I have shot the 7TCU for many years. Nice round. The 6, 6.5 and 7 TCU’s are all .223 cases, expanded and fire formed. Typical wildcats with blown our cases and sharp shoulders. The 25 TCU is in this same series and though very rare (like any TCU round in these days is not exactly common)

They were designed for the Thompson Center Contenders but they all work fine in XP-100’s that were rebarreled Fireballs and .223’s.

 

[Marine52]

The answer to the question “should you load your ammo or buy factory” is very dependent on your shooting goals. If you’re shooting hundreds of rounds at steel out to 800 yards with the guys on the weekend then buy quality factory ammo and enjoy and develop skills.
I found that my shooting needs changed with age. When you get to the point of spending large dollars on custom rifles and high dollar scopes, it seems you also get very meticulous (anal) with regard to precision, small SDs, etc. Loading your own ammo is a natural progression.
When/if you start shooting competition, you MUST load your own ammo to be competitive! Doesn’t mean you have to. I started shooting F-Class with factory Hornady Match ammo and a quality GA Precision rifle. I had a lot of fun and learned a lot. But I never placed in the top five until I started loading my own rounds and tuning loads to the rifle. Also, I don’t consider it fun but a necessary part of competitive shooting.

 

[Joee Dirt]

Lots of great info here. I'm pretty much in the same boat, but many have told me as I've read, factory quality ammo is pretty good for the most part. I've been getting into PRS and thought about reloading as well. I always thought reloading would be cheaper overall than buying ammo but this thread verifies that it is not. I do compete, but I don't think I'm at the level yet to reload, but with ammo times now it seems as reloading will allow me to shoot more.

Are finding components just as hard as finding factory ammo? Specifically 6.5CM?

 

[47guy]

Lots of great info here. I'm pretty much in the same boat, but many have told me as I've read, factory quality ammo is pretty good for the most part. I've been getting into PRS and thought about reloading as well. I always thought reloading would be cheaper overall than buying ammo but this thread verifies that it is not. I do compete, but I don't think I'm at the level yet to reload, but with ammo times now it seems as reloading will allow me to shoot more.

Are finding components just as hard as finding factory ammo? Specifically 6.5CM?

yes and specifically primers.

 

[Dthomas3523]

The biggest issue I see is the over complication of loading.

You have very few parts, and for the most part it’s very simple what’s going on. And with modern components, tools, and knowledge, this stuff is no longer vudoo. It can be simplified, streamlined, and dialed in pretty well now.

If you just like tinkering for the sake of tinkering and know that’s what you’re doing, go for it.

If you find yourself chasing your tail and having “issues” dialing things in, you need to take a step back and figure out where you’re going wrong.

For the OP, can you currently shoot better than the “crates of ammo”? If not, put the time into learning to shoot better than the cheap ammo. Once you can outshoot it, then you can look into either more expensive/better factory ammo or loading your own.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Too much arithmetic.

Money goes in, fun comes out.

Trying to refine this stuff further takes more time than it's worth.

I stopped trying to figure out what a round cost me to make probably well over a decade ago. At my age, the key unit of measure is time, not money.

Being able to run off 100rd of 75gr 223 match ammo whenever; priceless. 120gr 6.5 Grendel, 140gr 260 Rem, 168gr 308 match..., same, same. 1000rd M2 Ball in clips, also priceless.

For now, components are scarce; but at my age, I probably actually have enough to last for a lifetime. These days, ammo is not my issue,.

Greg

 

[Foul Mike]

I reload and have for 50+ years and still don't know doodle shit about it all. Just what I have learned over the years. You younguns have that all over me with all of the different chingaderos you have. I just go with what I have got as to primers, powder and my equipment on hand and making sure the round will chamber and shoot. Do that at the reloading bench, not out at the range. I have seen a lot of embassing things where someone wasn't sure and was afraid to try the ammo at home for fear of something or another. If it won't chamber at the bench, it sure as hell won't chamber when you get to the range, just be aware of muzzle discipline. Take it outside and try it there where you can't hurt anything.

If I buy an over the counter rifle, I will buy 1 box of ammo for it as well as the dies, if I don't already have them, and the components, if I don't already have them, and the box of ammo I bought with that rifle had some thought behind it,-- I wanted that brass to start out with to make the rounds that I think I want.

Almost everything I have shoots reloads, the only exception is plinking ammo for ARs. and that is where I find the failures.

I shoot a bastard round, 6.5/06, now so had to make ammo for it from the start as I don't know of anybody that factory loads that but that would have been the way I started except I bought 25/06 brass to start with and worked up from there.

To anyone that wants to start reloading right now, I wish you the best of luck. You are very late to the game and the ball has already been kicked off.

 

[fmillik]

Stream lining is not doing benchrest prep on brass and keeping a standard load.

I knew a shooter who would play with a load and rifle for months, make the best group with two or three component combinations. Put them on an index card and sell it with the rifle, then buy a different rifle and start over. He had shot most of his life and decided he liked working up accuracy loads and tinkering more than shooting the same bug holes every day. He did have a couple of personal favorite rifles, his wife sold about 30 when he passed. She kept a couple that she shoots.

I’m somewhat similar (get bored when I start shooting about .25 MOA). So I try shooting as far out as possible. Keeps it interesting trying to work with all the variables.

 

[Foul Mike]

I find and determine what the best round is for all of my rifles, then load a bunch of them.

I have enough ammo for each and every rifle I have to go and have a good day at the range and have shit left over.

Each rifle has "it's" own load and if there is a loose round, you can bet your life that it will be just exactly what you shot before or it would have been pulled down and made right.

Once I have determined a round for a rifle that works the way I want it to go, I stick with that.

I will experiment with another bullet or powder, if I have a lot of both, but that will be only 10 rounds and if that is better I will load a lot of that.

So far I experiment very little, and all works well for me. It may be different for others so have at it.

 

[Pwoens]

For me, reloading allows me to have the ability to keep shooting when factory ammo is no longer available. I’ve yet to truly “dial in” loads but may get there

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

I am one who loads his own, not for fun or hobby but because it makes the shooting sport “doable.” Factory rounds run about $40.00 per box of 20. As much as I like to shoot, it would all but bankrupt my wife and I using foot.

All my major equipment has been paid for years ago. Durable (American Made) goods, with reasonable care last and last. So, the cost is consumables and while not hoarding, I do try to keep a year to two years supply on hand.

As far as Cycling. We jsut think our Precision Rifles are EXPENSIVE. Carbon frames alone are eye watering Expensive! The replacement cost of my Time Trial bikes Rear wheel (not tire, not valve stem extension, not the adaptor that allows it to be aired up, not the sprocket set; Just the Wheel). Would Not Make cost for PRS Production. (Zipp Super 9 Disc wheel, $2740.00.)

 

[308pirate]

We jsut think our Precision Rifles are EXPENSIVE.

LOLOL......……..

GA Precision Team Rifle $4778, add another $2k for a decent scope.

You're just barely halfway there to the nearly $14K you need for one of these:

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

This was just $10,000.00. And this is all you get. Builds can easily exceed $20,000 including wheel sets that run close to $5000.00. While hardly anything can beat the cost of a quality English double rifle or an original Walker Colt, like I said, for what one seemingly gets, the prices are eyewaterwing.

(Pictured a Cervelo Project California frameset.)

 

[Foul Mike]

If I put that kind of money in a bike the fucker better have a strong engine and handle like a dream and go really fast.

Too old for pedal power and the MFer will probably burn lots of gasoline.

 

[supercorndogs]

The more roads the forrest service, DOW, and BLM gate up, the more use I get out of my bike.

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

If I put that kind of money in a bike the fucker better have a strong engine and handle like a dream and go really fast.

Too old for pedal power and the MFer will probably burn lots of gasoline.

What is so hard for me to understand is that top end bicycles actually cost more than top end sport bikes. A Honda CBR 650 is quite a bit LESS expensive and a Honda CBR 1000 (talking sub 10 second quarter miles and 170 mph top speed) usually can be purchased for this price or a bit less.

 

[bax]

whats the consensus for learning to shoot better? Reloading precision for me is more expensive than crates of ammo. i have my 65 creedmoor for training, 65 WSM for fun, and a new 300 prc 60% done.

or should i train on a ar platform?

Learning to shoot better requires quality equipment and ammo, training, trigger time, and the ability to critically monitor your performance and learn from your targets. If that bullet didn't go where you wanted it to go, was it your weapon? Loose scope? Ammo? Shooting skill - that is, your fundamentals? Bad wind call? If you know the answer, how do you know the answer? Usually training - formal and informal. There is one more factor - you have to want to be competent. If you don't care and don't drive yourself to be good, no amount of training will help. This is the "give a shit" factor. Not consensus, just an opinion.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

As a comparison with the average SH shooter, I shoot cheap rifles, and use cheap(er) optics, then fill in what little I can with load development and marksmanship diligence. It's not world class, but it doesn't have to be, either.

There's a definite movement here to spend money and chase the bleeding edge of the top tier stuff. IMHO, that's a great thing, and more power to those who do; your demands drive the technology, and IMHO, nobody drives rifle technology better or harder than the bunch at SH does. I'm proud to be an SH forum contributor, even if my key contributing days are mostly behind me, if there ever were any in the first place.

As far as reloading goes, I've been doing handloading most days since this lockdown has ensued, and I've practically got homespun fodder coming outta my ears. Since my years are up there; I see them as something of a legacy, or a contingency should such need arise.

I'm doing some divesting. My 7.62x39 rifles and ammo are being donated to the local VFW to be the basis for a gun raffle. The Post is wobbly right now; being shut down over Covid exposures and illnesses among our membership. It's the only responsible thing to do, but we're still scrambling a bit for income. This will help. We have assurances from members and local friends that we won't be allowed to go under, but we still strongly feel obliged to do as much of this sort of thing as we can possible manage on our own as the Post itself. This is my part, and I'm proud to do it.

Still, it seems wasteful to be making all that ammo, and shooting it up when replacements may be a long way off. Back when Obama was looking like he might make it into the White House, I would buy a brick of 22LR every time I went shopping at Wallyworld, and that stuff has been sitting idle all these years. It's time to get some out and have some fun/training/education. With an accurized 10/22, an ancient Savage MKII F, and a just acquired M&P S&W Shield 22LR Compact, the gear's in place, and the 22lr steel plinking targets are ordered.

It's an alternative whose time has come.

Greg

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Back when Obama was looking like he might make it into the White House, I would buy a brick of 22LR every time I went shopping at Wallyworld, and that stuff has been sitting idle all these years.

While I am good for .22 LR for quite a while I miss buying Remington Thunderbolts at Sam's Club, 2 bricks shrink wrapped under $20. Sam's quit carrying ammo and quality control on Remington went down hill. The last time I bought Remington .22 Target I had more misfires in 50 rounds than a brick of old Thunderbolts.

With current prices I'm glad I bought in bulk when I could. Even at pre COVID prices I'm surprised by some of the prices that were out there.

 

[BruntBronze]

i might pay what i didn't expect for brass...we'll see.