rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

Melsy

Melsy

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 2, 2012
51
2
40
huntsville texas
#1
Ok here we go.
Whn i got the rifle a couple years ago i used it to hunt mainly and shoot target just for trigger time. Now i have been shooting ALOT of targets and reloads. about 100 to 150 every week or two. so i would gues i have put around 3k rounds on the barrel.
SO now on my hand loads (cci primers 200, 44.4g varget, 178g amax, OAL 2.80, federal cases, trimmed to 2.015) i can group .36 inches at a hundred yards for 4 shots out of 5. The fifth will be between1 and 3 inches away. I used to shoot 2.2 inch groups at 300 and now i can get 3 in 1.1 and the other 2 a couple inches away so the group opens to around 3.
I bedded the action and it seemed to help especially when it heats up. but now its even worse. I think i butchered the bedding job.

How likely is it that the barrel is starting to go. Or is it more likely that the bedding job did this.

Side note i bedding a second identical rifle a week after mine and it is doing great. bedding made a world of difference on it.

sorry for the long post just wanted to cover all bases
 
#2
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

First thing I'd check for is optics related issues. Make sure your mounts are all good and tight. Trade the current scope with a known performer.

No offense intended here, but are you sure you aren't the problem? Inconsistency in bipod loading, body position, or parallax could cause something like this.

What stock? Maybe the barrel is touching the stock on some shots, not on others.

Pics and specs on the rifle, as well as pics of targets would be helpful.
 
#3
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

i thought it was me as well but with other similar rifles i can shoot dead on. right now it is the factory stock bedded and free floated. i ordered a choate sniper tactical stock last week so it will be here tomorrow and i am going to the range to try some more.

also i have chrono'd my rounds thinking i was getting bad charges and they are all within 25 fps of each other at 2680 avg. mounts are tight and i shoot off sand bags. i have put the stock on the bags and did the dollar test and it is clear all the way, even after 5 quick shots still no contact. i will get some pics sunday when i go
 
#4
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

+1 as the optics being the first place to start looking. Good luck.
smile.gif


Regards, Paul
 
#7
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

My brother encountered an issue like this with his gun. After getting pissed that his typical .75-1 MOA groups were opening up to 2 MOA and everytime he reset the zero, it kept changing, he packed it up for the day. When he went to clean it, he found that his rings had come loose just enough that the recoil was shifting his zero every few shots. Some thread lock and a rezero later and he's been gtg since.
 
#9
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

There are many model 700's in .308.
Is this a varmint profile barrel or a standard sporter barrel (you don't say in your original post)?

If it is a sporter barrel, I'd say it is due to your barrel heating up.

A loose scope will normally result in an open group, not 4 rounds in a tight group followed by a flyer.

Did you bed the scope rail?
I have found that most 700's need the rail bedded. As the action heats up and expands, a rail that isn't bedded can do funny things.
 
#11
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

First thought, like others said, optics. Base, rings, or scope. Something is screwed up or loose.

Second thought, Amax. I have not been able to develop a load using any Hornady bullets from the time that they went to the new jacket type. I do the same thing you describe, shoot 4 together send one flying. My team mates have had the same.

Double check the optics........then shoot a box of Federal Gold Metal match. If that solves the problem, make a new load with out the Hornadys. Sierra, Berger, Lapua what ever.....


Ty
 
#12
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

lets see, a few more things that could be contributing:

throat erosion/ different lot of powder - the old load may need to be tweaked
inconsistent batch of bullets - anyone can have a bad batch slip out the door
aging batch of brass/ crappy batch of primers - may need replacement
 
#13
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

if it turns out it's not the scope it sounds an awful lot like a load that's close but just not quite right,might try a little change in seating depth to see what happens
 
#14
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

You sound like a good shooter, so I apologize if this sounds dumb, but do you have a level indicator on your scope?

I shot 600yds for a bit last weekend and watched a bunch of other guys in the process. A lot of them - me included - would group sub-MOA with occasional flyers. Bi-pod load inconsistency was there for some, but the thing I noticed most often was canting the rifle.

Are your flyers completely random, or are they relatively consistent in where they flew? Low right was a good indication of cant. My bubble showed I was definitely canting whenever I wasn't sub-MOA.
 
#15
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwalk3r</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You sound like a good shooter, so I apologize if this sounds dumb, but do you have a level indicator on your scope?

I shot 600yds for a bit last weekend and watched a bunch of other guys in the process. A lot of them - me included - would group sub-MOA with occasional flyers. Bi-pod load inconsistency was there for some, but the thing I noticed most often was canting the rifle.

Are your flyers completely random, or are they relatively consistent in where they flew? Low right was a good indication of cant. My bubble showed I was definitely canting whenever I wasn't sub-MOA.</div></div>

At 100 yards, he'd have to have the gun sideways to get 3" deviation. If the optics prove to be okay, I'm betting the problem is the stock. OP, let us know how the gun shoots in the Choate.
 
#17
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

thanks for all the responses.

Model is adl with 24" barrel.

I had the load worked out with 2.88 OAL and that is the best groups i could shoot with the rifle. But my friends bought the same rifle as mine and i load tested on theirs and they cant stand having longer loads. So i had to dial it back to 2.80 @44.4g.
I checked the rings and scope and bases and everything is tight and right. My zero will always hold true from session to session. Scope is centerpoint 4-16x40 like this. Had it about 2 years. Never had an issue with it. Upgrading to the bsa 6-24 very soon, when i get this flyer worked out i am going to start shooting 600 yards.
 
#19
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

i have tried this with all types of brass. All second fired though. I have 3 people that every time they go to the range they pick up what they find and give it to me. i have went through about 300 Amax that have been doing this. I have redeveloped the load like 10 times starting low and ending high and every time it always goes back to 44.4 being most consistent, zero pressure signs, good fps, and until recently great groups.
 
#20
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

no advise is ever looked at as offensive
smile.gif


I do not have a level indicator on my scope. i have always leveled my scopes and rifles when i mounted them and have a really good eye for level and just hold my gun "eye level". Maybe i will bring one with me this weekend and check myself.

the flyer is always random
 
#24
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

ah, another one that has not been mentioned but can cause all kinds of wacky symptoms:

crown wear/damage

does not need to be visible to be detrimental
 
#26
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Melsy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about worn rifleing </div></div>

unlikely at 3000 rds from a 308

and it does not sound like a chunk of land going south from the throat (can happen on stainless barrels) as that just blows the groups up completely

a full copper removal may be worth a try

not worth it to pay for a recrown on a factory barrel with 3000

at this point if something simple ( they have all been suggested ) does not work there are 3 reasonable options:

rebarrel and have the action trued at the same time 800-1000 $

sell it for 450 - 550 $ (it is still fine for a hunting rifle) + put 1500 -2000 into a proven performing barreled action to go in the new stock

cancel the stock and swap up to a used complete rifle with less wear - this will likely be faster and cheaper than even a simple barrel replacement

finally, do yourself a favor and go with a scope that is less likely to be the culprit than a BSA/centerpoint - save some grief in the future
 
#28
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Melsy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">no advise is ever looked at as offensive
smile.gif
</div></div>
Then may I state the obvious? Centerpoint and BSA scopes? I've beaten the reticle out of a BSA scope before so my faith in their quality is that they're as "good" as Tasco and Simmons. I'm not saying you need to spend a fortune on optics, but my experience is that until the price goes around and over $300 with name brands, clicks aren't reliable and reticles don't stay in place, especially as they age and the beatings accumulate.

If that isn't the issue, none of the other points that were brought up aren't the issue, and you're confident in your ammo, then maybe it's some things I haven't heard mentioned yet: namely barrel cleanliness/fouling or something else is loose like trigger pins, sling stud, or a broken spring or something erratic. I don't mean to patronize you, but maybe your form is changing during your session. Even the best shooters dry fire more than live fire. Could be fatigue or your ears ringing or a flinch.

Last, you sound like a hell of a shooter if you can get a stock 700 under 1/2". I'm in that 100 yard group contest further down the page and the proof is that it takes expensive rifles to do that consistently; I know, I'm shooting a stock 700 against those guys. Part of me slightly doubts your claim of 1/2", but for all I know it's probably true because it's certainly plausible with the right load and riflemen better than me. BUT what I'm saying is - I'm not refuting your claim - maybe your memory of earlier groups is optimistic or centered on that one good one and not all of them.

I do that all the time!
crazy.gif


I haven't intended to offend you, just a brutally honest look from my side of the keyboard. I'm just trying to help.
 
#29
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

The .36 is actually the best group I shot not including the 1 flyer so its a non true group per se. The average group on a perfect day is around .51. But again that is omiting flyers so they really don't count.
As far as for offense taken. I'm so mad at you never talk to me again. J/k. I hardly believed the groups as well when I shot them. I thought my second and third shot missed the paper completley till I looked through the 45x spotter.
I will post some target pics and gun picss tonight with the range data
 
#30
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

one of the causes of flyers is inconsistent neck tension. you might try same lot cases, and neck crimp. (either taper or factory type neck crimp)
i was told that from a Sierra guy.
 
#31
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Melsy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm so mad at you never talk to me again. J/k.</div></div>
Hahaha at least we can laugh.
eek.gif
 
#32
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

Well range report pics later I didn't have enough time to do a bunch of groups after doing chrono sessions with mil cases and adjusting zero and seize fires... but the flyer seems to bee gone. Raing most of the time but best group was .51 inches ctc. I am going again next weekeend for a full session pics later
 
#33
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

the gun was shooting good. Find a bud in your aera with a solid proven optic. Nf,uso,sb or the likes . Just unbolt yours at the crossbolts and bolt the other optic on the rail. You shoot it , have a proven shooter shoot it just to confirm results. This will eliminate or confirm optic suspicion. Make sure your annealing that brass you've shot so much. Report back results of this,im curious too. I trust what you say, u own the gun ,you shoot the gun. You would not be on here askin questions if the accuracy had not shifted.it will be fixed
 
#34
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

I bet the scope went tits up. A ss 10x or a nikon buckmaster are 2 scopes that are good enough that cost 300 ish new. Swfa sample list usually have some deals that are good. Ryan is right about that 100 yd shoot, there are some super pricey rifles in that deal. My rifle was trued up by a no name smith and i put the remage barrel on it myself. It ran 1600.00 not counting optics, and is tied for second . Wish i would have shot a couple fouler groups before i started the score target.
 
#35
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

IMG_20121015_192616_zpsb6e61ba7.jpg

the rifle as it sits now

IMG_20121015_192451_zpsc632b4f7.jpg

full target view for reference. the random shots are just sight in and heating up barrel shots.

IMG_20121015_192358_zpsc1709747.jpg
this is the 5 shot group at 100 yards. the two next to it are just random shots on the target. this is center to center

IMG_20121015_192320_zps1abcd706.jpg

same group just outside to outside
 
#36
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

i agree with trying to put another scope on it. maybe the internal of your scope are out of whack. try putting a friends scope on it and seeing how it shoots. if the problem persists then its not your scope. if it does then just save up and get a new one. bushnell has a deal going where you get a 75 dollar rebate with a purchase of their elite scopes. so that means you can get a Bushnell 3200 10x40 elite with target knobs for about 130 bucks after the rebate. they aren't a bad little scope. i shoot one out to 300 with my SOCOM when I'm bored and I'm sure if i stuck it on my bolt gun i could hit out to 600 with that scope. its pretty decent quality
 
#37
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

That is a sporter weight barrel, I am not surprised that it wanders at it heats up or the groups open up as it heats.

What did you torques the action screws to?

Hate to tell you, but your rings are a bit lacking and your scope probably isn't helping much either.

Your next purchase should be better rings, take a look at burris zee rings
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/424556/burris-1-zee-weaver-style-rings-matte-medium

Next you should look into a Bushnell tactical 10X mil/mil scope
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/950843/...t-reticle-matte
 
#39
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

I wish I'd read this thread better before I posted the first time. You said you were planning on "upgrading" to a bsa 6-24? I dont even want to know what's on it now but I'd say it could be a pretty safe assumption to say your problem is optics related. Couple that with the fact that you decided to mate your optics to your reciever with a < $13 set of rings? Brother, why would you even begin to suspect the rifle when you have this kind of stuff sitting on top of it? Hope I'm not sounding like a pr___ but just trying to be straight up with ya. Good luck to ya.

okie
 
#40
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

well they were fine when i was hunting. i am now into target shooting and am upgrading as i go. I am on a super tight budget so i guess ill just have to save up and swap the rings and scope out for a better unint. 600 yards is my goal distance for now.
 
#41
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

Hey, I understand. I'm a poor man and it takes me months to save up $500 to spend on shooting gear but I refuse to spend good money on something I know wont work. I'm an old gearhead too, had some nice rothods in my day. Want a new SRT Challenger so bad now I can taste it but......aint happenin. Such is life.
wink.gif
Burris XTR rings are really good for around $50. Like was mentioned earlier, there's some $300> optics that work well if you're on a budget.

okie
 
#42
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

if your goal is 600 and you think you may go further than maybe a millet tsr-1 would be good for your needs. a bit more money but its 4-16x50 instead of the bushnell i suggested that is 10x40.

the bushnell 10x40 will be fine out to 600 though. won't have as clear a picture than with the millet but it will do.

i have pretty good experience with both scopes and both a good for the money.
 
#43
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

If your budget is so tight, you shouldn't have wasted your money on that stock when you have a junk scope. The stock you had wasn't the problem, the scope probably is. You can't "upgrade" to a BSA. Get a real scope with good rings and go from there.
You have been a member since April and you haven't been reading nearly enough or you would have known to get good glass. You never know when that crap is going to go south.
Get a good set-up and in the meantime, start reading on here.
 
#44
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

actually i have been reading alot since i joined in april. I know my optics suck and i dont think i wasted my money on a great stock. I will change the scope soon but until then the one im using will have to suffice. Not great i know but as i have said i used to use the rifle for just hunting and it worked ok then in daylight obviously not in low light as the glass sucks. i dodnt expect it to. I never missed a kill shot from the scope being off and i generally take great care of my firearms so knocking the zero off is not really an issue.
 
#45
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

It all takes time and money, keep chippin at it. Get a 10x bushnell .1 mil turret and the burris rings , diff barrel definitely needs to be on the shortlist as well. Just know this one is going to heat fast and then yer prob gon get these fliers. If it was me in your shoes id flip this gun get a savage used hopefully with a shilen match barrel and keep adding on from there. There is a point where you have to be realistic about what you are asking your equipment to do.i can completely relate to your struggle. Ive made some purdy big sacrifices myself to afford this addiction "we all have".
 
#47
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

Nk tension can cause fliers, usually they are going to add a few tenths not .5". Nk tension would have to be made way off the cause major deviation. Op said he had 3 people that were collecting brass at the range, this can cause more deviation then nk tension issues. Even same case stamp brass can vary from lot to lot. Precision costs money plain and simple, even if the scope is bad pick up a bag of Winchester brass and this alone will go a long way in avoiding brass/nk tension issues in the future.
 
#48
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

You missed my point. You didn't need a stock, you wanted it. You need a REAL scope, not that piece of junk, or an "upgrade" to a BSA. Your money would have been better spent on optics. You said yourself "super tight budget". Optics.
 
#49
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

sorry if i came off as dickish. didn't mean to. I see your point. i already have two or three scopes that are in my list and they are all around the 300 mark but im leaning towards the millit that was pointed out by mike. But i dont like the fact that it doesnt have rotation horizontal marks but for 300 it has everything else so iguess i cant get to picky. I have looked at some good bushnells but i dont want one without mil dots so that is hard to find. as far as rings might just get some 30mm leupold rings so i dont have to worry about them.
 
#50
Re: rem 700 .308 wont hold groups

yeah inconsistency with cases has been a worry so i have been full length resizing and only using federal(what i have the most of) and trimming and weighing them. keeping all cases weighing within .3 grains of each other
 
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