Remington 5R MilSpec twist

[CaptainGyro]

I'd appreciate a little input from those of you who own the Remington 5R MilSpec in .308 with the 24" barrel. Here's the deal:

I've never seen any official specs published by Remington on the 5R (if you know where to find them, I'd like to know). The concensus on the web seems to be that the twist on this rifle is 1:11.25, but no one seems to have actually measured it.

Well, yesterday I measured it, and I consistently came up with a 1:12 twist. I did the test four times, and got 1:12 each time.

If you own this rifle, I'd be curious to know what your twist rate is. For the record, I bought my 5R about two years ago. It was NIB, with the Remington SS 5R MilSpec label, matching serial numbers, etc. It looks and shoots just like any other 5R you've ever seen. It definitely has five-groove rifling. I don't know who ever came up with the 1:11.25 twist rate, but I know at least one 5R that's 1:12. I'd sure like to know what yours is.

 

[Alpine 338]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

I have two, and can check them this weekend. What method are you using to determing twist?

 

[tylerw02]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

Does it really matter? Its about a 5% difference...could be a combination of manufacturing tolerances and mismeasurement. I don't think it'll make a difference in how it shoots.

 

[Wylie Custom]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

How did you determine the twist?

 

[CaptainGyro]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

It's fairly easy to measure twist with swiveling cleaning rod. Attach a brush and insert it a few inches into the bore from the muzzle end. Mark the exact place on the rod where it's flush with the muzzle. Then, carefully push the rod into the bore until it completes exactly one rotation. Again, mark the point that's flush with the muzzle. Push the rod the rest of the way through the barrel (so you don't have to reverse the brush in the bore), then withdraw it and measure the distance between your two marks.

I use tape to mark the two points on the rod, and I also use a tiny strip of tape further back on the rod to mark the rotation. This system is remarkably accurate, and every time I know the twist in advance (from the manufacturer's published specs), I can confirm the twist within a sixteenth of an inch.

 

[Alpine 338]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

I use the same method, but put a patch around the brush, and go in from the breach end.

 

[USAF SP]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

I'll check our M-24s at work and report back

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

Since these barrels are manufactured by cold hammer forging ALL of them have the same twist, there is no room for twist variations with this process...

 

[Radar360]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

Here's an article (and a pic from that article) that speaks of Remington 's 5r. Enjoy.

http://www.tobystactical.com/2007/11/remington-700-ss-5r-milspec.html.

 

[Radar360]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

Here's another article (and pic from that article) on the same rifle.

http://www.snipercentral.com/milspec5r.phtml

Why Remington doesn't list this in their site, I'm not sure. Maybe someone can chime in on that that knows more about that.

 

[Alpine 338]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

The twist rate is actually marked on the end of the box with all the other info like part number, serial number, etc. The reason they don't put the info in the owners manual is because it's generic, and for use with all Rem 700 rifles.

 

[CaptainGyro]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

Alpine338: You got my hopes up about finding the twist on the label...I just climbed up in the attic and pulled the box for the 5R. (I don't know why...I already know the twist. Guess I just wanted to see what Remington thinks it is). Unfortunately, no twist info, even down in the very fine print.

But you know I love it when you tease me.

 

[USAF SP]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

measured the ones here at work and they are 11.25

 

[Mike Hull]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

The specs are 1:11.27:1. It's a common twist for most 5R rifled barrels, custom or factory.

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

And now, let's see where this strange "magic number" came from:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483303

 

[Radar360]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

Thanks Trio. I hadn't read that before. Interesting how the 11.25 twist came to be.

 

[CaptainGyro]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

Hog Rider: Thanks for measuring, but, just for the record, the M24 is not the same as the 5R. To date, I have not read any definitive measurement of the 5R twist. The info on the web seems to be the kind of info that "everyone knows", because they read it someplace else. Some of the speculation seems to be the result of the old urban legend that the 5R was manufactured with "rejected" M24 barrels.

To the best of my knowledge, Remington has never published the twist.

So far, except for myself, I've never read about anyone who actually measured the twist on a 5R milspec (.308).

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

Same barrel blanks (with different external profiling), urban legend or not, it is VERY expensive to make mandrels for cold hammer forging, and since remington already has the specs for the M24 barrel I cannot think why they would pick anything different fot the 5R (regarding twist and internal dimensions of the rifling), specially since they use the catchy "milspec 5R" name and are stainless as well. Who knows?

They also make "normal" M700 barrels in 308 by hammer forging, but they are 1-12" and with normal rifling profile.

You could write to remington and see what they say.

 

[CaptainGyro]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

With all due respect, "I cannot think" is the kind of speculation that is all over the web. Does anyone have an actual 5R Milspec that they can do the measurement on?

I appreciate all the "this is what makes sense" type comments, or, "this is what everyone on the internet says" or "this is what a similar rifle has", but, again, respectfully, if you don't have a 5R Milspec in .308 that you can do a twist measurement on, could you please withhold judgement until we get some cold, hard facts?

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

Captain, why don't you call/write remington and tell us?

As for myself, and with due respect, you measuring system is not really foolproof. And I cannot think that some other data points from people that have no specialized equipment (or that can make humand mistakes) will really settle this matter.

Perhaps some barrel maker or gunstmith has a really accurate system to measure twist and can give as some solid data as well.

 

[5R Milspec]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

OK I have no proof but my dearest friend did some reserch when they first came out.his findings came up with this.our US goverment paid a well respected barrel maker to form/built a barrel to spin a 168/175gn bullet.sorry but not sure do to the time gap from when this took place along with all that I have read on the 5R milspec.

the well respected barrel maker found it took a 1:11 1/4 twist to spin the bullet of choice just right at what ever speed was said needed for that bullet.he went on even farther to how the shape of the rifeling was cut.he found that the taperedcut/bullnose rifeling was best along with 5 groves instead of say 4.thats where 5R comes from.this is about all I can remember from the info he was able to round up on the 5R milspec.but will add that my friend was really good at finding things on the computer.he spent alot of time searching things out when he had an interest in something.

with all that said,I have did the old test useing a brass brush and patch.my findings cam up with a close as posible of 1:11 1/4 twist.I did the test many times to make sure and ended up with same results.the only way I think one could find out is to make a cast of their barrel from the inside.( say a short plug )then lube the pug and run it down the barrel.its been done but I have no reason to do so.hope this helped out.its all I can offer.

 

[CaptainGyro]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

Interesting 5R milspec. Thank you.

Anybody else have one they can test?

Like I said, I have a 5R milspec sitting in the safe right this minute that has a 1:12 twist; I wonder if there could have been two variants produced.

 

[5R Milspec]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

welcome glade I could offer the info.one thing comes to mind about your rifel.could it be that Remington made a mistake.I mean they might have put the wrong barrel on your action.people make mistakes all the time.

have you called them?might need too.

 

[Radar360]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

I just measured the twist of my Remington 5r 24" .308.

I first put a piece of carpenters' tape near the handle.

Then, I measured 11.25 inches from the end to place a second piece of tape.

So I have a total distance of 11.25 between tapes.

Then I place the rod into the barrel and move it a starting point. I used the butt of my chassis as a marker.

Then, I slowly inserted the rod to see how close or far from the 11.25 it would wind up.

Looks like 11.25 to me. I did this a dozen or so times and it always came in dead center or very close. The pic I used was one of the bigger variance just to show how close it was (and it's also the clearer pic of the bunch anyway.

 

[CaptainGyro]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

5R Milspec: you're right, the wrong barrel was the first thing I considered, so I checked the rifling. I definitely have 5R rifling, with five lands and grooves arranged exactly like they should be.

Many have suggested writing to Remington, but the problem with "just" writing is that no one at Remington acknowledges responsibility for producing the 5R Milspec. Who do you write to? There's no tech support address listed. There's a warranty address, but this doesn't seem to be a warranty issue, since Remington never advertised a twist rate. The custom shop doesn't show the 5R Milspec in any of their literature. I did write to the general information address, but haven't heard anything yet.

Thanks Radar86. That certainly looks like a valid test, although I'd feel better if there was any original part of a 5R Milspec showing in the photos. What kind of chassis is that?

I do like the series of detailed pictures. If I can, I'll try to take similar pictures of my testing and methodology (slightly different that yours) and post them for all to see.

 

[5R Milspec]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

if writeing doesn't get you anything then just call them.I wish I could remember the ladies name to whom I spoke with one time.she had a husband that shoot alot and new alot herself.she helped me out a great deal when I needed some help from Remington.

the only other thing that comes to mind is to just take it back.ask the FFL gent to trade out for another 5R.even have them to do a twist test on the rifel in question.

 

[CaptainGyro]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

Let me clear something up: I'm very happy with my rifle. Below is the target I shot when first zeroing my scope at 100 yards. Rounds 1, 2, and 3 are zeroing shots from a cold bore; 4, 5, and 6...well, you be the judge:

This is a 100 yard target shot during load devolopment:

I really just did the twist test because I had the equipment set up and I was doing it on all my rifles. I'm pretty confident in my test procedure, because every barrel that has a published twist from the manufacturer was dead on. The 5R milspec result surprised me, but then I realized Remington has never published the twist. So, I thought I'd share it with the community and find out if anyone else has tested.

I am slightly concerned about my rifle's ability to stabilize the very heaviest bullets, but other than that, I'm happy with it.

 

[5R Milspec]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

trust me it will shoot the bigger bullets too.thats if you want it to.

 

[Radar360]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CaptainGyro</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Radar86. That certainly looks like a valid test, although I'd feel better if there was any original part of a 5R Milspec showing in the photos. What kind of chassis is that?
</div></div>

CaptianGryo: Okay, here's a picture of the Remington 5r .308. It's an AICS chassis with Viperskins.

 

[JoeBUtah]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

I just took delivery on my 5R the other day. Nothing on the box mentions the twist. I payed for 11.25- I hope that's what I got!

I don't want to hijack this thread but, I was under the impression that 175 gr SMK bullets are the hot ticket for this gun. All I can find in factory ammo locally is 168 or 180. Bullets are available no problem but ammo is a different question.

I'd like to zero my just ordered scope with factory ammo. What do you guys suggest for factory ammo to sight it in with? Also, once I start hand loading, I guess my zero will change if I load 175s right?

 

[Radar360]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

Black Hills (168's or 175's), Federal Gold Metal Match (mine loves the 168'2), and Southwest Ammo (they currently have a group buy on 168's and 175's in the group buy section - they tend to work very well).

Yes, your zero will change. Congrats on your new rifle. Enjoy it.

 

[CaptainGyro]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

Remington resopnded, and we have a definitive answer.

A nice lady named Lisa dug up the info on the 5R Milspec for me. She confirms that they're made in small runs for a single distributor, and the barrels are made on the same machinery as the M24 barrels. The twist on all the short-action .308 5R Milspecs is 1:11.24.

This was both a relief and a disappointment for me: relief that mine in fact must be the faster twist, but disappointment in my experimental method. I have a degree from one of the finest engineering schools in the country, and am well-grounded in experimental discipline. I was pretty confident in my method, since it was validated on barrels where the twist was published by the manufacturer. In every instance, I came up with exactly the published twist, plus or minus about a sixteenth of an inch. I had to go back and figure out where the error had slipped in.

Today, I re-did the twist test, and I think I found the answer. It lies in the 5R rifling itself. All of the other barrels I tested had conventional rifling, with the grooves cut with traditional ninety degree walls. The 5R, with it's softer, angled edges on the grooves, allows more slippage as the brush passes down the barrel. More slippage means it takes the rod just a litle bit longer to complete one revolution, which perfectly explains the illusion of a slower twist. When I substituted a tight patch for a brush, and pushed it through slowly to minimize slippage, I came out much closer to the published value. 5R milsec, your method of using a patch-wrapped brush was pretty smart. (Radar86, I'm curious...did you use a brush or a patch for your experiment?)

Thanks to all who responded, and sorry for all the confusion.

In the immortal words of Emily Litella, "Never mind."

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

Thanks for clearing this up for all of us

From another engineer sometimes obseseed with minutia, I think your explanation on slipagge makes sense.

 

[Radar360]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

I used a cotton brush for .40 which provided a tighter fit. I had tried a .30 cotton brush first but it wasn't tight enough to ensure that it wasn't just being pushed w/o rotation. So I tried a .357 and then the .40. The doz or so tries were with the .40 cotton brush which worked very well.

I'm glad you verified.

 

[elkaholic3428]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

Is there a 5R that isn't milspec? If so how do you verify that one is the real deal, the milspec?

 

[hdbiker1]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkaholic3428</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there a 5R that isn't milspec? If so how do you verify that one is the real deal, the milspec? </div></div>

Mil-spec in this case is a misnomer.

 

[dbsinh2o]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkaholic3428</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there a 5R that isn't milspec? If so how do you verify that one is the real deal, the milspec? </div></div>

There's a Model 700 Target Tactical that also uses 5R rifling, but even blindfolded you could tell them apart.

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

I also contacted them via email a week ago on M24 vs 5R milspec rifling specs, and the answer came today:

"<span style="font-weight: bold">The barrels are designed and manufactured the same</span>. We use ordinance grade steel in all of our barrels.<span style="font-weight: bold"> This being said, the M24 barrels and weapons go through a much more rigorous testing procedure than the standard production 700 line</span>. The 5R barrels tend to be more consistent in accuracy due to the reduced friction and the reduced bullet deformation caused by the 5R rifling."

 

[azhank]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CaptainGyro</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
This was both a relief and a disappointment for me: relief that mine in fact must be the faster twist, but disappointment in my experimental method. <span style="font-weight: bold">I have a degree from one of the finest engineering schools in the country, and am well-grounded in experimental discipline</span>. I was pretty confident in my method, since it was validated on barrels where the twist was published by the manufacturer. In every instance, I came up with exactly the published twist, plus or minus about a sixteenth of an inch. I had to go back and figure out where the error had slipped in.
</div></div>


Yea but you put tape on a stick and measured with a tape measure.

 

[nfngun]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

There was allot of reading to do on the thread so if this question has already been answered i apologize for being lazy.

The 5R is a custom shop rifle most of which being made for a single distributor i beleive i was told Accusports. Although on a regular production schedule its a special order and not listed as a production rifle.

being a custom shop gun the parts used are similar to that of the M24 they aren't as accurized hand lapped / trued actions ect, hence the difference in cost. This was what i was told by a rep last Friday when i called about a Remington RACS stock. I guess you can take the info at face value the the rep did seem like a 5R fan stated he owned one and wanted to pick up the newer 300. Given his interest in the model he may have had more knowledge vs a standard rep.

What would be funny is if they where actually totally identical rifles we pay $1100 and the government pays three times as much.

 

[nfngun]

Re: Remington 5R MilSpec twist

This is off the cuff and my opinion ... the 5R .223 isn't mil-spec because there really is no military version of it ...the material, barrel dimensions and 5R are milspec based on the M24 but I don't believe there is a mil-spec for the caliber and twist. where the .308 and .300 are actual military rifles and have military specs for every aspect of the barrel.

So if there is a mil-spec for .223 i guess it would have too be 1-9 twist for it to be legit ... can anyone confirm this?



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: elkaholic3428</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there a 5R that isn't milspec? If so how do you verify that one is the real deal, the milspec? </div></div>