Remington 700 .223 disappointment!!

[Cz455guru]

Well I decided to make training cheaper I would purchase a Remington 700 .223 , I found a new one on GunBroker for a price I was willing for and purchased it with the intent of putting it in my competition chassis and dropping a Bix & Andy trigger in it.
Well I get to shooting it and the bolt was really hard to close on factory ammo so I put in a repair request and I was notified that I could send it back with a minimum of a 12 week turn around. That's absolutely crazy, so I dug into the problem myself and decided it was my extractor, I did some polishing and light filing on the extractor and bingo that problem was fixed.
Started reloading for it and the bullets I wanted to shoot absolutely won't stabilize I checked the twist rate and factory twist is supposed to be 1/9 should be enough for the 70 gr rdf bullets. But according to my testing with a brush and cleaning rod it comes to a 1/12 twist.
So now I'm not sure what to do I'm gonna call Remington customer service tomorrow and see what that say about it but in the meantime has anybody else ever gotten a twist this far of on a factory rifle?

 

[nockhunter]

WOW, I got the same rifle, I should check the twist on mine. I picked it up looking for just an action, and what the hell got the whole rifle for $10 more. I loaded some 69g SMK's I will shoot this week. I will keep you informed.

Mike

 

[Cz455guru]

WOW, I got the same rifle, I should check the twist on mine. I picked it up looking for just an action, and what the hell got the whole rifle for $10 more. I loaded some 69g SMK's I will shoot this week. I will keep you informed.

Mike

Ya let me know if anything is strange with yours. I was gonna say that mine is the rem 700 sps with a 20" threaded barrel.

 

[nockhunter]

I don't have the 20" version, mine is from the run of rifles made for "THOSE COMMIE BASTARDS" at dick's. FDE stock ADl, with 1/9 twist 24" barrel, threaded muzzle. You got me thinking, I should check it.

Mike

 

[308pirate]

I have a Howa 1500 in 223 that is supposed to have a 1 in 9 barrel but it won't stabilize 68 grain Hornadys. I could send it back to LSI but the rifle is so well made otherwise that I just load 53 Vmaxs for it and shoot the crap out of it.

If I were you I would forget about sending it back to Remington. Just save up for a new Remage barrel and do it yourself.

 

[supercorndogs]

Remington has made a ton 1 in 12 223s. They made some in the 20" sps tactical, before they switched to 1 in 9. Most if not all the SPS varmints are 1 in 12. What makes you think its supposed to be a 1 in 9? Is it stamped on the barrel, or was it listed in the add?

 

[ilmonster]

That sucks. My 20" SPS Tac in .223 says it has a 1:9 twist barrel. I've never confirmed the twist, but it shoots 68 gr. and 75 gr. BTHP Hornady's to 1/2 MOA all day long in 5 shot groups out to 300 yards (furthest I've shot that one). Based on that, I've got to believe mine truly is 1:9. Hopefully you get yours straightened out, because with a 1:9 they can shoot pretty well!

 

[Ledzep]

Well...

1) Receive more disappointment from Remington when you call; either by lead times or what they won't do for you (Maybe I'm wrong)
2) Shoot 55gr bullets in your trainer
3) Pony up for a better replacement barrel

I'd buy some V-max's and keep it inside 500yd. You'll certainly learn wind reading.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

I'm also interested to know what the barrel says on it. If it says 1 in 9, well, one that's hilarious, and B) extremely poor showing by the manufacturer.

Instead of 55s, try some of the 53/52gr bullets. 52gr Berger flat bases hammer inside of 400 yds for me, and I used to regularly take 53 vmax's out to 600 trying to shoot clay pigeons.

 

[spife7980]

Was your brush a tight enough fit in the bore to not skip over the rifling a bit?

I had a 16" 1-9 factory barrel which I confirmed was 1-9 but it still didnt seem to be enough to stabilize the 70 rdf. Went back to a 69 custom comp and it was fine. The rdfs are loong. After that I went with the 53 varmageddon for its impressive bc for the weight and it was great but didnt seem to do very well past 500, just got too anemic from only 16" I guess to tell much of anything that was happening that far down range.

 

[Cz455guru]

Remington has made a ton 1 in 12 223s. They made some in the 20" sps tactical, before they switched to 1 in 9. Most if not all the SPS varmints are 1 in 12. What makes you think its supposed to be a 1 in 9? Is it stamped on the barrel, or was it listed in the add?

Just going by Remingtons website and what they have on the specs for my particular gun.

 

[supercorndogs]

Just going by Remingtons website and what they have on the specs for my particular gun.

If you want specs for your particular gun, you will have to call remington with the serial number. Just because you bought it new, doesn't mean it hasn't been sitting in someones stock room for 10 years. New gun doesn't mean new production.

 

[lumberjack78]

I have a Howa 1500 in 223 that is supposed to have a 1 in 9 barrel but it won't stabilize 68 grain Hornadys. I could send it back to LSI but the rifle is so well made otherwise that I just load 53 Vmaxs for it and shoot the crap out of it.

If I were you I would forget about sending it back to Remington. Just save up for a new Remage barrel and do it yourself.

Interesting. I also have a Howa with a 1 in 9 and it will stabilize the 75 gr BTHP and 75 gr ELD-Match at 2000 ft.

 

[308pirate]

One thing people forget as well is that any homemade barrel twist measurement is crude as fuck. If I were to do a gauge capability study on the cleaning rod-with-patch method it would fail miserably.

What you think is 1 in 9 may very well actually be 1 in 9.7 when measured with something more accurate and likely won't stabilize 69 gr bullets at altitudes near sea level despite what's stamped on the gun.

 

[RFutch]

I had the exact same experience with the same model 700 about 6 months ago. 20" threaded SPS (not tactical model). Mine was shooting like 4" groups with 69 smk's and I did the exact same test with a cleaning rod. Came out 1/12

That was my last remington. I took it back to the place I bought it from and got my money back. Bought another Origin action and screwed on a extra factory savage 223 barrel I had lying around that shoots lights out.

We also notified remington of the discrepancy and nothing... crickets. Their website still says 1/9. Ridiculous.

 

[Cz455guru]

Called Remington today and explained my issues to them they got my serial number and they acknowledged that it should be a 1/9 they sent me a return label if I choose to send it back to get checked out.

 

[Cz455guru]

One thing people forget as well is that any homemade barrel twist measurement is crude as fuck. If I were to do a gauge capability study on the cleaning rod-with-patch method it would fail miserably.

What you think is 1 in 9 may very well actually be 1 in 9.7 when measured with something more accurate and likely won't stabilize 69 gr bullets at altitudes near sea level despite what's stamped on the gun.

I understand that checking with a brush and a cleaning rod is not perfect but for it to be a variance of 1/9 to 1/12 something is wrong here. If it checked out to be 1/9.75 I would not mess with it and figure that is due to my unprofessional methods. But it literally comes out to be exactly 1/12.

 

[garandman]

Definitely re-barrel it. If Remington will do it for free, that's good.

Is it a heavy barrel?

Might want to think about a serious aftermarket barrel.

I mean....its only money. Can't take with with you when you die.

 

[nockhunter]

Sorry for the bad pic. Here is my Rem 700, 1/9 varmint barrel, it now rests in a Bell&Carlson stock with PT&G bottom metal. It is most likely to be a 1/9 twist barrel because my first load with 69g SMK shot a 3/4" group (5 shot), the second went about 1 1/4", the third went under 1/2", at 100y.

This is how the rifle came from Bud's

Mike

 

[Steel head]

Hope it works out for you OP.
Personally I’d rebarrel it.

 

[supercorndogs]

I would shoot it out as is, or rebarrel it as well.

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

How about the models you guys bought??

Only models that offer 1/9 are the VTR, Tactical and 5r models. Even long ago I believe only the Tactical and 5r had a twist faster than 1/12.

NockHunder's looks like an SPS Varmint if that is the original configuration in the stock photo and it isnt offered in anything but 1/12.

If remington messed up they messed up but its sounding like just a mix up on what models you believe you bought.

 

[supercorndogs]

The Police, LTR, XCR Long Range, and XCR Compact are all 1 in 9.

 

[sinister]

A custom 1-7 or 1-8 will cover the range from 50-grainers through 80s for 1,000-yard work. A 1-6.5 will get you up to 90s, but you'll have to load long (and probably single-feed) to take advantage of powder space.

 

[RFutch]

How about the models you guys bought??

Only models that offer 1/9 are the VTR, Tactical and 5r models. Even long ago I believe only the Tactical and 5r had a twist faster than 1/12.

NockHunder's looks like an SPS Varmint if that is the original configuration in the stock photo and it isnt offered in anything but 1/12.

If remington messed up they messed up but its sounding like just a mix up on what models you believe you bought.

This is the one I bought that measured 1/12. I also had the same one that nockhunter posted a pic of. It shot 69-70's great and even 77s under an inch. It was marketed as 1/9 and measured 1/9.

 

[FUNCTIONAL]

This is the one I bought that measured 1/12. I also had the same one that nockhunter posted a pic of. It shot 69-70's great and even 77s under an inch. It was marketed as 1/9 and measured 1/9.

Well I can tell you Remington's rifle search criteria crap sucks. Put in 700 and 223 and missed half the rifles they offer in 223.

 

[HeavyAssault]

My XCR Tactical in .223 drops 69gn factory box loaded ammo down range without any issues. It's actually boring to shoot any target under 200 yds with the 1/9 stamped on the barrel.

Sure we all know a 1/9 will be measured within a certain +/- range but I have some doubt it would go to a 1/12 rate "by mistake" of the manufacturer. That leaves the user checking the device has a greater chance of error when using the wrong measuring device.

I understand that checking with a brush and a cleaning rod is not perfect but for it to be a variance of 1/9 to 1/12 something is wrong here.

Seems as the user is confident in his "non-standard, non-calibrated" bore twist checker device is more accurate than getting a real calibrated device designed for the task. Why not get a second opinion of a local gunsmith with the right tool?? The probability of you getting the 1/9 stamped barrel that is actually bored 1/12 is pretty damn remote. The probability of your measuring device and technique being wrong has better odds of the source of your issue.

Not to mention you didn't post that you tried any other hand loads or even factory boxed ammo........hummmmmmmmm

Maybe your recipe for the hand loads isn't going to work???????????

Good luck...buy a lottery ticket you have the same odds at this point.

 

[garandman]

My Hornady OAL comparator gauge varies as much as 10 / 1000 when checking length to ogive .... no doubt due to human error.

So I take an average of about 10 measurements.

Is there a device actually designed for checking rate of twist ?

 

[RFutch]

My XCR Tactical in .223 drops 69gn factory box loaded ammo down range without any issues. It's actually boring to shoot any target under 200 yds with the 1/9 stamped on the barrel.

Sure we all know a 1/9 will be measured within a certain +/- range but I have some doubt it would go to a 1/12 rate "by mistake" of the manufacturer. That leaves the user checking the device has a greater chance of error when using the wrong measuring device.


Seems as the user is confident in his "non-standard, non-calibrated" bore twist checker device is more accurate than getting a real calibrated device designed for the task. Why not get a second opinion of a local gunsmith with the right tool?? The probability of you getting the 1/9 stamped barrel that is actually bored 1/12 is pretty damn remote. The probability of your measuring device and technique being wrong has better odds of the source of your issue.

Not to mention you didn't post that you tried any other hand loads or even factory boxed ammo........hummmmmmmmm

Maybe your recipe for the hand loads isn't going to work???????????

Good luck...buy a lottery ticket you have the same odds at this point.

The mistake was made by remington on their website where it says its 1/9. It wasn't made when they rifled the barrel. In other words, the webpage should say 1/12.

Sure the cleaning rod method is not 100% accurate, but it will get you close.

Both the OP and I bought the same rifle and both came up with 1/12 when we measured it, multiple times.
At the same time I had another remington, with a 24" barrel, that was a 1/9 and measured 1/9 with the same method.
The 24" gun shot close to 1/2" with 69 factory and 70 RDF handloads. The 20" with same ammo shot 3"-4" groups.
I think its pretty safe to say remington made the mistake not the method in which we measured the twist rate.?

 

[HeavyAssault]

Cause a website product description drives the manufacturing floor of end product specifications as well as the barrel stamping. Got it.

 

[RFutch]

Cause a website product description drives the manufacturing floor of end product specifications as well as the barrel stamping. Got it.

A. I never said that.

B. There's no twist stamped on the barrel of either gun I had.

C. Why is it so hard for you to understand that production and marketing are not always on the same page.

 

[HeavyAssault]

Why is it so hard for you to understand that marketing is at fault not production.

For the record the Varmint model was the only version I saw that listed a 1/12 rate but on a 26" barrel. Not to mention that was straight from Remington as well. So if you did have a 20" barrel that was 1/12 twist.....it's a RARE beast.

So you bought the wrong rifle based off of a website description. Then you had the opportunity to physically inspect the rifle before buying to qualify it was what you wanted. To which you failed to inspect properly.....THEN want to blame a webpage for your problem. Hmmmmmmmm....got it.

If there was no labeling on the barrel you damn sure should have checked it before dropping cash. Do you always buy stuff so blindly??

 

[RFutch]

Holy shit dude, that's what I am saying, THE WEBSITE IS WRONG!

I did inspect it. Neither the box or the rifle are marked with the twist rate. What was I supposed to do measure it with a cleaning rod before it bought it? According to you that isn't accurate enough to tell...

Do you really believe that two of us getting something other than what we were expecting is our fault? Wait, do you work for remington???

 

[chevy_man]

Cause a website product description drives the manufacturing floor of end product specifications as well as the barrel stamping. Got it.

So it's the end users fault Remington can't get their shit straight? I mean, how would he know it's a 1:12 when it's advertised as 1:9? Is he supposed to ask the gun fairy to come measure it before he buys it?



What the hell is your problem?

 

[HeavyAssault]

LMAO.....so wait a minute let me get this straight.

People here take the time, labor and materials to learn how to hand load ammo. Understanding loads, powder, burn rates, PSI...etc etc etc....Shoot their rifles....AND THEN blame the manufacturer for a item not manufactured to a website description???? YOU had the technical ability to make sure the weapon was as described....you had the opportunity to check it before leaving the store....and you didn't check it EVEN BEFORE pulling the tigger at your house....OMFG......THEN complain......It's not going to shoot my hand load recipe? LMAO

NOT that the website on ANY other site HAS EVER been wrong........NO that has never happened (sarcasm) .

You failed to check your gear was what you wanted, had PLENTY of opportunity BEFORE pulling the trigger to make 100% SURE it was the right specifications......then you complain at your own failures cause they resulted in the manufacturer product.

I guess your horses push a lot of carts around town don't they.

 

[HeavyAssault]

how would he know it's a 1:12 when it's advertised as 1:9? Is he supposed to ask the gun fairy to come measure it before he buys it?/QUOTE]

Is the website fairy supposed to make sure the data was entered correctly??? LMAO....
What the hell is your problem.....YOU failed to check it. It's your problem, not mine at all.

Christ you guys act like this has NEVER EVER happened in a million years...People spout off all KINDS of technical data, experience, learned knowledge etc etc etc...YET.........No one checked the twist rate on an unmarked barrel......CAUSE the website is ALWAYS right.

THAT'S rich right there.

 

[HeavyAssault]

Do you really believe that two of us getting something other than what we were expecting is our fault?

Well did you check it??

What was I supposed to do measure it with a cleaning rod before it bought it?

Yes....You sure could have made damn sure at that time....BUT you didn't...CAUSE :"Neither the box or the rifle are marked with the twist rate."

Think about that.....YOU KNEW what the website said AND YOU KNEW that the box nor the barrel confirmed you "expectations". Hence you failed to perform an VERY SIMPLE and seemingly effective inspection technique that WOULD HAVE EASILY given you doubt.

I wanted people to post their own inspection techniques to show it could be done in a manner effective and simple. I wanted people to challenge me as to the using the cleaning rod IS quite effective and simple way to "check" the twist rate. Since it's SO simple and effective.....WHY didn't you use it???? Cause you believed it didn't need to be done based on a website......SHAME on you.


BTW you will soon receive an email saying you won the Republic of Congo National Lottery....Pay those fees and win big!

 

[nfoley]

Not sure what your saying here Heavy Metal?
You saying someone should bring a cleaning rod to the gun store to check that the advertised twist is correct?
Remington is telling him the twist on that barrel should be 9, and they gave him a return label.
Or are you saying his method for checking twist with a cleaning rod is inaccurate?

 

[RFutch]

So you take a rod with you every time you pick up a new gun? Do you bring calipers to check the barrel diameter too? What about a a scale to make sure the weight is correct?

YOU may not have a problem because you were not in the situation, but it's clear from your responses you have issues.

 

[HeavyAssault]

You saying someone should bring a cleaning rod to the gun store to check that the advertised twist is correct?

Well I'm pretty sure that by the nature of the comments above people JUST might want to check the weapon before they buy. OR at least determine the return policy of their LGS it they are unhappy with the "expected" technical details when they take steps to affirm their product purchase. Some places allow a 3 day return for unfired weapons. Pretty easy to do....

Remington is telling him the twist on that barrel should be 9, and they gave him a return label.

That's customer service isn't it now?? I didn't read they confirmed it was a wrong twist rate by production, they just agreed it was listed that way on the website. Not to mention the RMA process.....12 weeks??....Guess we just need to stay tuned? It may truly be a production problem....BUT if that serial number WAS built correct....They will say...It was an older weapon with older specs that have been changed.

Or are you saying his method for checking twist with a cleaning rod is inaccurate?

From a prior background in aviation, manufacturing process inspections, contractual manufacturing inspections, extensive other details...No it's not the "exacting" process I would use.

Is it effective? YES.....Is it simple to do??...YES.....Could you have had a buddy do it OR even went to a LGS to confirm your findings??..YES....

The problem I see is the user which seemed to be VERY experienced in developing hand loads (hence an established technical understanding and knowledge base of firearms) SHOULD have checked the barrel BEFORE firing the weapon. Since his end use was a very specific ammo/bullet configuration to which needed a specific barrel twist.

As I said before I'm QUITE sure that type of issue has happened before, people with THAT much talent relying on the data on a website as gospel should think twice....maybe even get their buddy involved for a sanity check.

That brings me to following data provided on a website. By the nature of some posts here....I should follow this site since EVERYTHING is gospel and not to be questioned.

Yeah......I'm already bought up on crazy. Go sell that somewhere else.

 

[HeavyAssault]

So you take a rod with you every time you pick up a new gun? Do you bring calipers to check the barrel diameter too? What about a a scale to make sure the weight is correct?

So why would that be wrong??? Is it your money or are you just another daisy trying to keep up with the other cheerleaders??

Stop acting like sheeple.....be your own self....It's your money....throw it away, cause drama, do what you want.....It's all on you in the end.

Damn I have a 12ga that I swear can't hit a barn at 20 yds with any load by any shooter. My son has an older 870 that seems to drop deer at a full run 100yds away, all day any day (sarcasm) hell the kindergartners use it ....I just chalk it up as whatever....I move on.

People here are SO hyper-critical about accuracy, shooting techniques, wind, sun angle, Earth's rotational spin, etc etc etc and STILL make SIMPLE mistakes.

Why not just learn to make an educated purchase AND be able to confirm that BEFORE you buy??? Maybe that should be the teaching point....but then people need to be willing to understand and learn.

 

[HeavyAssault]

From a gun shop web site:

Our inventory changes rapidly. While we make every attempt to make sure the information on our website is correct, (XXXXXX) will not guarantee that titles, pictures, or descriptions on our site are error free. We reserve the right to cancel any order including but not limited to orders for items with errors in the price or description. In the event that an order is cancelled, we will not charge the customer and we will return funds in full if payment has been sent.

It happens......Otherwise the above would have NEVER been put on their website.

 

[RTH1800]

I doubt one person in 1000 who purchases a new, unfired factory rifle checks the twist prior to shooting it. I have never known anyone who did so. And like most here we know some very technical shooters.

 

[HeavyAssault]

I doubt one person in 1000 who purchases a new, unfired factory rifle checks the twist prior to shooting it. I have never known anyone who did so. And like most here we know some very technical shooters.

Exactly. Cause on that 1001th time we just believe we are getting exactly what we want....and time and time again we learn a lesson.
Just sayin'.....we double check OAL, grain loads, PSI, etc etc etc.....plenty of times yet a basic check for something we are VERY specific in needing just gets pushed aside in the glory of a new gun purchase.

For the record the weapon pictured above with the Order Number 84158 I cannot find pictured in any printed material until 2016. The 2016 print shows the weapon as posted above with the threaded barrel. I haven't even found/ cross referenced the 84158 in any other research. Even the 2016 printed catalogs doesn't give the Order Number 84158 specs. The only 20" barrel has a Houge Overmolded stock. EDIT: Nevermind...found it.

 

[RTH1800]

Have you checked the specs on your new rifle purchases? Land and grove diameter, twist rate, head space, LOP, drop at comb and heal, weight, barrel taper, locking lug engagement, primary and secondary cocking rates, bedding of recoil lug, receiver true to spec, firing pin protrusion, firing pin hole diameter, sear engagement, spring clearence inside bore of bolt etc. on every new rifle you have ever purchased? Prior to shooting? Wow, you must have time on your hands.

If so you are one unique man.

 

[HeavyAssault]

Well I am unique....just like every other human on Earth. No two humans are 100% exactly alike, yet humans are common.
A very unique situation to some....pretty common to others. It's perspective.

Once again @rth1800 you prove my point. I always check what I have the time to check, within reasonable inspection methods, or with the tools at hand. If you don't care about land and grove diameter, head space, LOP, drop at comb and heal, locking lug engagement, primary and secondary cocking rates, bedding of recoil lug, receiver true to spec, firing pin protrusion, firing pin hole diameter, sear engagement, spring clearance inside bore of bolt then why would you inspect them??

If you do care about twist rate, weight, barrel taper, etc etc etc AND if you CAN inspect those.....WHY would you not?? Perspective...

Some people will grab the calipers and any other tool to perform all the checks you addressed.....other will not. Who is right....who is wrong??? No one. It's a unique personal choice we make which course of action to take. In the end YOU are responsible to make sure it's what you want.

You act like the factory specs are the God's good word....yet here again in this post is ANOTHER example that things we want to hold true don't ring true.

I'm not trying to change your opinion or perspective, just do you...I can handle my end just fine.

 

[RTH1800]

I did not say factory specs are perfect.
I only check when they prove to not be working. I don't criticize folks for not checking minutia. I also do not check the compression ratio on a new truck unless it is low on power. I do not pull the rear end and count the gear ratio, I don't run the engine on a dyno. Or criticize others for doing or not doing so.

I do wonder what you are trying to add to this post? Certainly not useful or helpful information.

 

[HeavyAssault]

As I posted above:


While we make every attempt to make sure the information on our website is correct, (XXXXXX) will not guarantee that titles, pictures, or descriptions on our site are error free.

So they made an error on the page or production. BIG deal. You had a chance to check it, you didn't. That's it. THEN cry about your "hand loads" not working with the barrel twist. Did you check barrel twist.....NOPE. BUT I'm damn sure you MADE sure twice if not three times what bullet to use, what powder to use, what primer to use, what grain weight to use.....etc etc etc.

IF you WANT to be SO very hyper-OCD about what you are hand loading and make a Rookie mistake of NOT checking other very specific criteria.....that's your problem.

I'm not trying to make you change your opinion or perspective. I'm not saying you are wrong in ANY way factually.
I could careless what your opinion or perspective is on the matter.

I don't criticize folks for not checking minutia.

Yea....I'm sure you don't.

I only check when they prove to not be working.

To your standards, they are not working. To other standards they are working......Perspective.

 

[RTH1800]

Another troll..

 

[HeavyAssault]

Admitting your faults is the key to you being a better person.