Gunsmithing Remington Action Truing Options?

[jasonk]

As I begin my adventure on the new lathe, I'm shopping for tools and the best practices on a lot of things. I'm curious about how you guys like to true 700 actions?

I've considered the following:

Dave Kiff's PTG Remington Truing kit to go .010 over with the threads. + the pieces to true the bolt as well. Looks pretty fool proof.
https://shop.pacifictoolandgauge.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=74_75&products_id=216

Mandrel and collar like I've seen Steve Aker do. This seems like an out of date way to do it.

The Manson Complete Accurizing kit and an action truing jig like shown in STR's video or like I've seen that William Roscoe has made.

Or...one of the above and the SSG True Bore Alignment system. Expensive I know, but who's actually using one, I want to know how much of a time saver they truly are and how well it works for $2k!

All advice is welcome, thanks in advance.

 

[7mmRM]

I do them in the fixture like Roscoe's. Works well. Made thing for next to nothing. I would like to have one of Nate's TBAS, but the price of admission is the deterent for me!

Id pass on the tap systems. YMMV...

 

[Cigarcop]

When you get the mandrel and bushings dont get the bushings that are tapered .700-.705 get the individual ones and fit it proper at each end.

No Tap System for me either!

 

[Gene Poole]

For bolt truing, I built a mandrel and mini cat's head. After doing the back of the lugs, and before removing the cat's head, I set up the steady rest to keep my position when I move the the bolt face.

 

[Killswitch Engage]

the flames will probably come but...

i just don't think there is much to be gained from a truing package on a rem. i think having the action face square and possibly the lugs and abutments kissed but even that could be argued. a well chambered top shelf barrel is where its at and its been proven time and again with untrued against trued etc. the results arent there from truing to me. the other factor is the shitty bolt timing remington gnerally has to begin with gets worse the second you whack on the lugs and abutments usually requiring the handle retimed and tigged or soldered back on. after all that, you could have had a stiller or something.

but in the end it makes a person feel better knowing their action is trued thus giving them wings like redbull and it gives gun plumbers some extra funds for drag racing, whiskey and women so why not.

i have the truing fixture from viper and a alignment manderal. single point it and go on. you dont need another tool from ptg thats probably going to come out of spec, fucked up and charged for shipping like it came from siberia. this is all my opinion and your mileage may vary.

 

[19Scout77]

Killswitch...finally. someone who gets it!

 

[Gene Poole]

For actions, I'd rather single-point everything than using an expensive set like the PTG tools. You just need a good mandrel and some bushings (It took Manson Tools 3 tries to get me a straight dowel). I use the Viper fixture too. Although not ideal, it get's the job done.

 

[LRI]

How weez dooz it.

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LRI method:

 

[jasonk]

You don't have to rub it in, Chad!!

 

[Aeon1]

I've borrowed and tested the PTG tooling and contrary to what many around here say (would bet most have not tried the tooling) it works well. IMO it does just as good of a job as single pointing in half the time. The downside is it's expensive so if you're doing it for yourself it may not be worth the money invested. I use tooling copied from Mike Bryant (I belive Bryant predates wroscoe but could be wrong). I originally used a copy of a gretan fixture but don't use it anymore (the Viper is esentially the same as a gretan).

To add: I don't think there is anything at all wrong with a mandrel and collar between centers and a steady. I did them that way early on and if I'm just facing the front of an action I still use a mandrel between centers. Between centers is one of the truest methods on a lathe and setup time is fast.

 

[scotharr]

I bought everything from Greg Tannel and his video: works great.

 

[wnroscoe]

Don't over think or over complicate the process. It's all about work holding 101, indicating the work piece as close to .0000" as possible and single point cutting to make the "Truing" cuts. Skip the long fixtures that hold the receiver at the front and rear receiver rings. Flexing the receiver with them is a very real possibility. As far as receiver truing reamers, taps and tapered bushings go, save your money. Believe it or not, they work OK but, you have a lathe, use it the correct way.

Make your own receiver truing fixture, it's cheap and 110% effective. Invest in the standard PTG receiver bushings from .700" to .705", two each. You'll also need a .500" diameter, ground, stress relieved and hardened rod/mandrel to indicate off of. One of my machinist/tool & die maker buddies uses a .500" pump shaft x 12" long.

 

[wnroscoe]

Aeon, you are correct about Mike Bryant's truing fixture predating mine, that's where I got the idea, he's a top shelf machinist. IMHO, your are incorrect thought about the PTG tooling being as good as the single point method. Contrary to popular belief, the PTG/Manson tooling will follow the existing cuts to a point where the single point method makes it's own way regardless of what's already there.

I have the PTG tooling and did experiment with it in the early days but, the single point method won out.

Truing between centers, on a mandrel, really. Now you're in a suspect setup from the word go and truing is a fairly loose term to use to describe cuts made in that setup.

Fast set up time isn't really one of the criteria I have when picking a good set up. remember, work holding 101, it isn't rocket science..........oh wait a minute, it really is.

 

[W8-2112]

I use the PTG setup

 

[Aeon1]

Truing between centers, on a mandrel, really. Now you're in a suspect setup from the word go and truing is a fairly loose term to use to describe cuts made in that setup.

What is suspect about turning between centers?

 

[wnroscoe]

What is suspect about turning between centers?

I said truing, not turning.

When you set a receiver up between centers what holds/drives it, a mandrel screwed into the threads locked up against the lug abutments? If so, you're simply following what's already there with your face cuts. At that point how do you skim cut the lug abutments and receiver threads. Do you really think the threads and lug abutments are true?

Is your tail stock center dead nuts with your chuck center? Not many are. I know you can use a sacrificial dead center in the chuck and touch it up as needed and make it dead nuts but, that does nothing for a tail stock that is out of alignment. Where is yours at?

Very rarely do I find receiver threads and lug abutments that are perpendicular to each other. If using a threaded mandrel that screws into the receiver and locks up at the lug abutments you're allowing the mandrel to dictate the receiver relationship to the cutting tools thus you're simply following what's already there and really not accomplishing anything other than a shinny receiver face.

Granted, hundreds of blacksmiths have done it this way for years, they've even chambered in a steady rest and or with hand tools. Does this mean it's wrong or right or the best way? No. With mandrels your simply inducing yet another variable and that's what we should be trying to remove. So far for me, the "Best Way" is my way. Results speak volumes and the proof is in the pudding or target.

If your truing receivers with threaded mandrels and thread taps using live or dead centers your missing the boat as far as extreme accuracy goes.

Like I said, to me, the set up is suspect and lacks precision from the start. Close enough, good enough or it'll do isn't quite the response I typically look for.

 

[LRI]

What is suspect about turning between centers?

Here's the deal.

1. Tail stocks LOVE to get out of position. Be it up/down/left/right. Facing a part becomes open to problems because the feature machined may or may not be 90* in relation to the tool axis.

-Imagine moving a tail stock towards you .1". Now you slip your rec. onto the shaft and register that shaft in the chuck and the live center. You make a pass. Assuming your surface finish is decent you'd look at it and never know there's an issue. Now lay a square across the face of the action. The face isn't flat. It's dished. -kinda like a barrel crown.

2. VERY little holding onto the receiver. The door to work holding problems is kicked wide open. Especially with insert tooling as they require more tool pressure than sharpened carb or HSS.


Hope this helps.




As for using magical shafts, taps, and specialty form tools to clean up surfaces:


To the best of my knowledge there's not a single firearms action manufacturing company using a tapping setup to put threads on the front of the action where the barrel goes. They are done using one of two methods:
a. Single point threading in a lathe/turning center
b. Thread milled in a vertical/horizontal machining center

Even with a extremely rigid setup and using what's called "rigid tapping" where the spindle of the cnc lathe/mill is synchronized to the pitch of the thread, it would be a potentially suspect setup. Principle reason is ALL taps have some degree of taper built into a portion of the tool so that the initial stock removal is a progressive act. An action -any action, almost demands that the thread go from nothing to its full effective thread depth in a very, very, very short span of rotation. You just cant do this with a tap.

Trying to hold position with a tap is extremely challenging. They take the path of least resistance. A single point method (be it lathe work or thread milling) is much more resistant to it. Thread milling probably being the most accurate if the machine is nice and tight because the tool isn't constantly loaded the way a boring tool is.

I'm sure there's others that can chime in here to give a few more reasons, but these are the big ones.


Point is, a tap can remove material and make gunked up metal packed with old bluing salts, loctite, and grease nice and shiny. It does not mean the feature is on location, free of taper, or parallel to the common datum axis. A 1/2" mandrel made from steel won't support it well enough. The bushings have a considerable percentage of unsupported diameter due to the raceways. There's got to be clearance in the bushings for the shaft to fit in it.

Add this up and you soon realize your working against yourself.


NOW, that said. Does it mean your rifle won't shoot? A statement like this would be foolish and retarded to make. The proof is all over the place that they can and do. That's fine as its ultimately the end result were after. From a purest standpoint though its not a method without flaws. Any reasonably experienced machinist will back this up.

C.

 

[STR]

I know I was mentioned in the beginning of this thread, and for the record I'd like to say that right after I posted the videos, I started using a jig like Roscoe uses. I felt its better than mine in that I'm not forcing the action to flex in order to get it aligned. This sometime puts pressure on the indicating rod being used to align the action which makes it hard to pull out once you're ready to start machining.

So that's why I like Roscoes way better.

 

[xringaccuracy]

Don't over think or over complicate the process. It's all about work holding 101, indicating the work piece as close to .0000" as possible and single point cutting to make the "Truing" cuts. Skip the long fixtures that hold the receiver at the front and rear receiver rings. Flexing the receiver with them is a very real possibility. As far as receiver truing reamers, taps and tapered bushings go, save your money. Believe it or not, they work OK but, you have a lathe, use it the correct way.

Make your own receiver truing fixture, it's cheap and 110% effective. Invest in the standard PTG receiver bushings from .700" to .705", two each. You'll also need a .500" diameter, ground, stress relieved and hardened rod/mandrel to indicate off of. One of my machinist/tool & die maker buddies uses a .500" pump shaft x 12" long.

Amen! All machining 101. One thing to consider, us gun plumbers are tool fiends and fixture makers. So plan your holdings based on tried and true methods. Reading the old manuals still hold true.......keep it close to the chuck, keep it simple, and keep it rigid. The rest is gravy

 

[jasonk]

Where do I find the aluminum with thick walls like that? Or do I need to buy a solid chunk and bore it out....man that'd take a long time...

 

[300sniper]

Speedy metals and online metals are your friend for online purchases of small quantity metals.

 

[jasonk]

Speedy metals and online metals are your friend for online purchases of small quantity metals.

I think I looked at both those places, maybe I'm not sure what I'm looking for, figured it was something like 2.5" OD, 1.5" ID, .5" walls?

Or what am I looking for?

 

[dinc]

Jason,

Check out metal recycling. Cherry City Metals in Salem has/gets in lots of different shapes in all the time. I found a nice piece of Stainless 1.5" id with 1/2" walls, instant action jig. You'll become a metal whore.

Check out Hinnant's book. THE COMPLETE ILLUSTRATED GUIDE TO PRECISION RIFLE BARREL FITTING | Brownells

Did you look at the Lassen Gunsmith Classes?

 

[jasonk]

Thanks, dinc. Got that book on the way. Haven't checked out classes, I'll have to be self taught, with owning a business and 2 young kids and a wife who for some reason wants to see me every once in a while I'm not sure I'm squeezing classes in anywhere.

STR (Ozzie) on here has me hooked up with the metal I need, the man went above and beyond!! First rate guys on here I tell you.