Removing Expander Ball

[sigma2chi]

I have a Redding FL sizing die and have been through two stems already that I had to get rid of because they would not stay centered in the die body and resulted in excess neck runout. After my third piece of brass today the runout was so bad it was visible. I pulled the die and the center stem was SERIOUSLY bent. I had enough. I took a pair of bolt cutters and a file and completely removed the bottom half of the stem that holds the expander ball. Aside from wondering why my die stems keep bending. I have a question i would like some input on.

Can I run the redding FL sizing die and continue to resize my .308 Lapua brass WITHOUT the expander ball? It seems to work just fine. I am concerned about the bushing making the neck too small and adding excess neck tension when I start seating the bullets. Is this a legitimate concern or no?

Thanks for any help and insight.

 

[wilecoyote]

in my book, without is better _ after the resizing,the xp. can be substituted with a Sinclair expander w.mandrel of the proper size_
(keepin' in mind that the bullets are intended to be shooted, not to work as expanders_

 

[gvanhyning]

in my book, without is better _ after the resizing,the xp. can be substituted with a Sinclair expander w.mandrel of the proper size_
(keepin' in mind that the bullets are intended to be shooted, not to work as expanders_

+1^ I only use the expander ball with new brass, especially Lapua.

 

[former naval person]

The stems bend because they are threaded so deep in the die that they contact the internal web of the case. As to whether the die over sizes the neck, that is measurable. Measure a sized neck and then the same neck with a bullet seated. If more than .004 to .005 difference, then the answer is YES.

 

[milo 2.0]

From what I've seen, the only real way to bend a die stem is from having it screwed down to far and the expander is contacting the case web. Redding expanders are pretty aggressive, the type s dies come with the black pin retainer and won't expand, how I run them.
If you must run the expander, buy the carbide expander kit, it's pricey but it floats on the stem, and it makes sense.

I load on a concrete floor in the garage, so I need one die with an expander on it, I've yet to see a piece of brass hit the floor that doesn't land on the case mouth. So I just keep a neck die around to clean shit up.

if your die is indeed a bushing die, there is no need for an expander, if it's a regular die, the die is probably crunching the neck too much, and you will want one.

 

[JByrd]

I choose a lot/brand of brass im gonna use. Choose appropriate bushing to get .002-.0025 neck tension. I have and extra stem i chuck in drillpress .then i take the factory expander and sand it down and polish it till it just passes through the neck with slightly snug resistence, this pulls out the dings where me and my compadres trample on them on barricades/match stages

 

[sigma2chi]

What is the correct neck tension tolerance? .002 smaller than bullet diameter????

 

[Fuzzball]

No matter how much smaller than maybe .001" your necks may be it will do nothing for how tightly the neck grips a bullet, after that much stretching the metal exceeds its elastic limits and just stretches.

Using no expander ball will leave necks quite straight out of the sizer but if it's more than about a thou smaller than the bullet the increased seating force will bend the neck anyway. It may surprise some folk but die makers pretty well know what they're doing with those expanders.

Back your decap stem up so you aren't bending it yourself, you really don't need much of the pin to stick out below the die.

 

[flashhole]

like one of the others said ... if you are using a bushig die you do not need an expander. if it is a regular sizing die, did you consider honing the neck portion of the die to give you the exact neck dimension you want? either of these two approaches will require you turn the necks to be consistent.

 

[sigma2chi]

I have the type S full length sizing die. I measured one of my recently sized (without the expander) pieces of brass and it came in at .306 so I guess I'm good.

 

[milo 2.0]

.306 doesn't sound right, my 7mm measure .312 after sizing. Something is wrong???

 

[P7id10t]

I load on a concrete floor in the garage, so I need one die with an expander on it, I've yet to see a piece of brass hit the floor that doesn't land on the case mouth. So I just keep a neck die around to clean shit up.

Same here -- Murphy's law. Put a rug under my stuff and it *still* hits the concrete after 1 bounce.

.306 doesn't sound right, my 7mm measure .312 after sizing. Something is wrong???

Methinks he's measuring ID

 

[sigma2chi]

.306 doesn't sound right, my 7mm measure .312 after sizing. Something is wrong???

Yeah, that's the inside diameter.

 

[milo 2.0]

Yeah, that's the inside diameter.

OK,I just dumbass face palmed myself.

 

[JByrd]

like one of the others said ... if you are using a bushig die you do not need an expander. if it is a regular sizing die, did you consider honing the neck portion of the die to give you the exact neck dimension you want? either of these two approaches will require you turn the necks to be consistent.

If the case mouth has a ding,you need expander. If you sit at a nice neat bench with purdy gun thats never seen rain or dirt and treat your brass the same you may never need expander.

I only use type s so i decide how much neck tension and i know for a fact from expierence the factory expander will take tension back out.

It may suprise you how accurate non neckturned brass can be.the bullet does not lie

 

[Dacam]

Ok, time for a dumb question.
I also have a Redding FL sizing die. I dont see any expander ball, there is the black stem and decapping pin.
Also, my stem is also not centered. Will this cause the runout problem?
Thanks

 

[milo 2.0]

Ok, time for a dumb question.
I also have a Redding FL sizing die. I dont see any expander ball, there is the black stem and decapping pin.
Also, my stem is also not centered. Will this cause the runout problem?
Thanks

There's a lot of tings that can cause runout. Personally I don't think no expander would cause it. New factory brass can be out of round from the get go. If you have runout, you need to figure if it's effecting accuracy, there's a lot of disagreeing thoughts on this.

I had to start neck turning for my 6.5x47's, because of donuts. You'd be surprised at how out of round the crap was, but was still deadly accurate. I have my own thoughts, as others do, but in my opinion a guy can read more BS into this reloading, and over think it for nothing.

As for the bent stem, if it's not contacting the case necks, it shouldn't be causing problems.

You do want to strive for concentric ammo, if possible.

 

[Fuzzball]

"...there is the black stem and decapping pin. Also, my stem is also not centered. Will this cause the runout problem?"

No. And non-centered expander balls have much less to do with neck runout than 'common wisdom' suggests anyway. The expander rods aren't all that rigid and shell holders don't have a tight grip so cases will tilt a good bit to accomidate off-center balls anyway. Most neck run out comes from thin or soft spots giving way during extraction of the expanders.

 

[Dacam]

"...there is the black stem and decapping pin. Also, my stem is also not centered. Will this cause the runout problem?"

No. And non-centered expander balls have much less to do with neck runout than 'common wisdom' suggests anyway. The expander rods aren't all that rigid and shell holders don't have a tight grip so cases will tilt a good bit to accomidate off-center balls anyway. Most neck run out comes from thin or soft spots giving way during extraction of the expanders.

Thats a very good point. The shellholders have a lot of play in the cases which tilts the cases. I never really thought about this.

 

[Turbobo]

I run my Reddings without the expander. When I ding a case I use the Sinclair expander on it, then run it through the sizing die again. The Sinclair system has a threaded die that accepts different caliber mandrells, it has been very useful over the years.

 

[sigma2chi]

If I have a ding or "fold" in the neck/lip I just use a .275 in pin punch, stainless, and put it in the case and mash the imperfection against the punch with my thumb. Crude but very effective at fixing those types of issues.

And my bench is in my man cave on carpet. I do baby my gun and my brass I guess too.

As for the the expander causing the runout, mine was for sure. The stem was SEVERELY bent. I believe I had the expander ball way too far down the die body and it was hitting the primer cup with force.

Things seem to be working great with the expander and stem removed so far.

 

[sigma2chi]

UPDATE** just realized that my headspace was a bit off so I reset my lock ring to bump the shoulder back a bit further which meant I had to run this same brass through my full length die a second consecutive time. Expander ball completely removed. Spec'd the brass afterward and my runout went from .002-.005 to a MAX of .001 on ALL of my brass most pieces were under .001 ; inside diameter of neck is still measuring .306 -- I won't ever be running an expander ball again in my Redding Type S Full Length Dies. Anyone here with that die I would HIGHLY recommend removing the expander ball completely.

 

[KelsonAK]

I remove the expander from my dies whenever possible. Decap in a separate operation, clean the pocket with a uniformer (or clean the case entirely if they are icky), mandrel if there is a serious ding, FL size, expand with a mandrel, trim, chamfer(spelling on that?) clean to get any lube 'n crap off, and roll. I do skim turn necks for about 50% clean up and I also anneal every couple loadings. Works for me. I've bent and busted a couple of expanders due to bad setup when I was just getting started in the reloading thing, and getting rid of them just makes my life easier and there is less swearing. May not be the fastest method - but I like the results I'm getting.