Rifle Scopes Replacement is here, Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x

[Brett_B]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

Thanks for all of the great pictures and info guys. Looking forward to seeing my PST's in person as well.

 

[jrob300]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

That's why I said it may not be that bad in actuality (due to the fact that, *if* the camera had the same CA, they would compound). Keep in mind though, that 3 cameras have now represented the same CA in the PST's. Just sayin'.
</div></div>

Not saying jrob is right or wrong on the product as I know nothing about the original camera(s) but demonstrating what he is looking at.

Rose tint via blown up view of 10x magnification comparison:
http://www.wanderson.org/Rose_Tint_CA.png

Same caveats apply. Originals were compressed. Originals had different relative sizes. Link is high res. Large file size. Etc. </div></div>

That's interesting Oddball,

Those posts or whatever they are, are exactly what caught my eye initially when comparing the three scopes.

I really want to look through one live. I had a chance to look through my shooting partners new 5.5-25x50 Falcon Menace yesterday and I was extremely surprised at how sharp it was on 25X and almost no CA. Very impressive at first glance for a sub-$500 optic.

John

 

[ReaperDriver]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

Good discussion guys. My 1st Impression from the side by side pics was I was unimpressed with the PST optIcs for $900. The more I really looked at the pics , the slightly better my impression of thr PST is. But it really just doesn't seem to pop like I would expect a scope to for slightly less than $1K. However as some have said, is anyone going to miss a shot because of a slightly less clear pic or some pink CA? I dunno. I guess as long as all the other features like tracking, reticle accuracy, etc work correctly - the optics quality is further down the scale. At least on a working rifle based on lowlight's list.

I'd love to look through one in person. I'll probably get flamed for saying this - but based on the pics I've seen... I'm underwhelmed. I'm probably being to hard on it, but I just think for $900, the optics would "pop" more than it appears to.

 

[jrob300]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ReaperDriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good discussion guys. My 1st Impression from the side by side pics was I was unimpressed with the PST optIcs for $900. The more I really looked at the pics , the slightly better my impression of thr PST is. But it really just doesn't seem to pop like I would expect a scope to for slightly less than $1K. However as some have said, is anyone going to miss a shot because of a slightly less clear pic or some pink CA? I dunno. I guess as long as all the other features like tracking, reticle accuracy, etc work correctly - the optics quality is further down the scale. At least on a working rifle based on lowlight's list.

I'd love to look through one in person. I'll probably get flamed for saying this - but based on the pics I've seen... I'm underwhelmed. I'm probably being to hard on it, but I just think for $900, the optics would "pop" more than it appears to. </div></div>

And here's the rub for most of us, isn't it? The balance between what we NEED and what we WANT.

Need is such a subjective term, and it might be different things on different days. My Falcon Menace served me perfectly for everything I asked of it, until I tried to hunt in early morning light.

There are SO many different aspects of optical performance, once you start really looking at a lens system, you begin to understand why truly good glass is prohibitively expensive. Then try to put it in a system that must be waterproof, shockproof, subject to thousands of repetitive adjustments, etc., blown up by Tannerite... you get the idea.

I suspect the PST's look better live than the pictures would seem to point out or others would be whining. Red spectrum CA is the most annoying by far and makes everything appear slightly out of focus, and no one is complaining.

Realistically, when forced to consider the scope (no pun intended) of the project involved with making an optic in this pricepoint with these features, I would say that IF the rest of the scope performs mechanically and reliably as expected, that Vortex spent their budget where they should. I'm sure that their were some very difficult decisions to make about *where* to cut the corner, but this is NOT a no-holds barred scope. It is a budget scope (for this feature set. Remember, this is the ONLY scope at this price point with these features, the Bushnell is close but the lack of a decent reticle and insufficient internal travel put it in a sub-class in my mind), therefore, something, or many somethings, must be less than optimal. As long as the low light performance is acceptable, I can live with less than perfect optical performance (and the reduced price tag).

John

 

[yoterunner]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

Where is the delivery update for these scopes. 6-24 FFP, when do those of us that have pre-paid expect to have and start working with them? Its been almost a month without any update!

 

[winxp_man]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: yoterunner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where is the delivery update for these scopes. 6-24 FFP, when do those of us that have pre-paid expect to have and start working with them? Its been almost a month without any update! </div></div>


+1 anyone also know of the SF 4-16x50 on a ballpark date ?

 

[jrob300]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: yoterunner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where is the delivery update for these scopes. 6-24 FFP, when do those of us that have pre-paid expect to have and start working with them? Its been almost a month without any update! </div></div>

It does seem that the further we get into the delay, the less we hear. I may be very surprised when they mysteriously begin shipping in a week, or two, but at this date, I'm thinking there's more going on then a few isolated incidents.

To be fair, it is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. Set another date, miss it, lose further credibility and sales. Communicate only in vague nothings or not at all... lose credibility, customers lose patience and you lose sales. Personally, I'd prefer forthright and let the chips fall where they may, this is how I run my business, but there are an awful lot of people in business that believe the truth is the *last* thing you want to tell your customers. These people often end up in politics.

Either way they may end up getting their own sub-chapter in a Business textbook someday recounting how this all came out smelling like roses and what geniuses they were or how they repeated every classic new product rollout mistake and went down in flames. Or not.

Time will tell.

I feel *really* bad for you guys who have your money tied up. If it was me, I'd be having a little chat with my dealer since the rules have changed.

.02

John

 

[yoterunner]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

Just to be clear, I have no issue with the dealer (LO), they have been great at answering questions and top notch from my very first inquiry email! It's just getting short on practice time and I want to know if I should be looking into Plan B. I know its damned if you do, damned if you don't for Vortex, but when I have a customer that is waiting for a product release, I relay accurate and timely info to the best of my ability so my customer can make decisions to the best of their ability. I don't think Vortex is doing anything wrong, I would just ask for an update. I called this past week, but didn't reach anyone in sales dept.

 

[jrob300]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: yoterunner</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just to be clear, I have no issue with the dealer (LO), they have been great at answering questions and too notch from my very first inquiry email! </div></div>

+1 on Scott @ LO, even if he DID tell me my Falcon is junk.

Nope, he's GTG. (FWIW, Nick at Falcon Optics and Robert at RWS Gunsmithing have been every bit as supportive as the legendary customer service I've read about with regard to Vortex.)


John

 

[elkstalker338]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

I am still waiting and guess lucky that there is no pressure to get this mounted on my new rifle, heck I had my 300rum sendero for almost 3 years before I got it out and scoped and started hunting with it, I just hope that I wont be dissappointed and vortex relaizes everything and fixes them right, hopefully they will up the glass quality but from the pics I have seen on the internet from them it seems pretty good anyway, would like to hear some updates from vortex about once a week, anyway the stripers at lake powell have me busy so my mind is being occupied

 

[BigDKC]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

One thing Vortex definitely has going for them is the HUGE jump in price up to a Nightforce! lol Hate to be that way but I have to admit at this point I am getting tired of waiting. Lucky for them, the value (providing it does in fact get ironed out) is VERY hard to even compare to. If there was a legitimate direct competitor, feature to feature price to price, to this particular optic currently available and ready to ship, I am afraid Vortex would have lost out to a LOT of people, at this point probably even myself included.

 

[jrob300]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigDKC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lucky for them, the value (providing it does in fact get ironed out) is VERY hard to even compare to. </div></div>

Truthfully speaking, we don't really *know* what the value is. A few have made it into customers hands. Some had issues. None have received the beating that Frank gave the Razor. We have no idea what the long term mechanical reliability and repeatability of this scope is.

Value is yet to be seen.

John

 

[ReaperDriver]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

Other than beng illuminated, what "features" does the PST have that the falcon 5-25x doesn't?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ReaperDriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Good discussion guys. My 1st Impression from the side by side pics was I was unimpressed with the PST optIcs for $900. The more I really looked at the pics , the slightly better my impression of thr PST is. But it really just doesn't seem to pop like I would expect a scope to for slightly less than $1K. However as some have said, is anyone going to miss a shot because of a slightly less clear pic or some pink CA? I dunno. I guess as long as all the other features like tracking, reticle accuracy, etc work correctly - the optics quality is further down the scale. At least on a working rifle based on lowlight's list.

I'd love to look through one in person. I'll probably get flamed for saying this - but based on the pics I've seen... I'm underwhelmed. I'm probably being to hard on it, but I just think for $900, the optics would "pop" more than it appears to. </div></div>

And here's the rub for most of us, isn't it? The balance between what we NEED and what we WANT.

Need is such a subjective term, and it might be different things on different days. My Falcon Menace served me perfectly for everything I asked of it, until I tried to hunt in early morning light.

There are SO many different aspects of optical performance, once you start really looking at a lens system, you begin to understand why truly good glass is prohibitively expensive. Then try to put it in a system that must be waterproof, shockproof, subject to thousands of repetitive adjustments, etc., blown up by Tannerite... you get the idea.

I suspect the PST's look better live than the pictures would seem to point out or others would be whining. Red spectrum CA is the most annoying by far and makes everything appear slightly out of focus, and no one is complaining.

Realistically, when forced to consider the scope (no pun intended) of the project involved with making an optic in this pricepoint with these features, I would say that IF the rest of the scope performs mechanically and reliably as expected, that Vortex spent their budget where they should. I'm sure that their were some very difficult decisions to make about *where* to cut the corner, but this is NOT a no-holds barred scope. It is a budget scope (for this feature set. Remember, this is the ONLY scope at this price point with these features, the Bushnell is close but the lack of a decent reticle and insufficient internal travel put it in a sub-class in my mind), therefore, something, or many somethings, must be less than optimal. As long as the low light performance is acceptable, I can live with less than perfect optical performance (and the reduced price tag).

John </div></div>

 

[mrtoyz]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

I've always been amazed how many companies just dont get it. There isnt much more important in small business than to learn from their own or others mistakes. Under promise over deliver, basic customer service.
I'll admit I dont know firsthand how this Vortex situation has played out but from what I've read...Vortex should have an internal date that they expect to have scopes on hand, add 45-60 days and press release the date. At that point the whole goal internally becomes to deliver early. This type of thing becomes a huge motivator for companies and their employees. Everyone loves to get praise, to be the hero...Under promise over deliver....
From a retail stand point if a manufacturer cant pin down an internal date then they flat should not release dates EVER. So I can see why Vortex may be silent at this point...
Social networking is the ticket, teaser vids and a few reviews are a must just NO DATES unless you have firm internal dates.

.2 cents

Oh...there is a competing product
http://www.cstactical.com/Store/OPTICS/R...0-30mm-FFP.html

Though you wouldnt know it by Bushnells website....Horrible!

-T

 

[Benjamin_Breeg]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

I have a pre-order and they can take as long as they need. I do new product development and while project managers like hard and fast dates they tend to paint you into a corner.

 

[jrob300]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ReaperDriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Other than beng illuminated, what "features" does the PST have that the falcon 5-25x doesn't?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ReaperDriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body"></div></div></div></div> </div></div>

You raise a really good point, Reaper. My shooting partner just got a 5.5-25x50 Falcon and that thing actually has amazing glass and a *great* reticle. I had a 4-14 and never expected the 5.5-25's to look that good. There have been *some* reliability issues, which I believe that Vortex has insinuated will not be an issue with the PST, but remains to be seen. But it *is* a sub-$500 scope! Not sure how important illumination is to the majority of the market. If Nick invested a little more in the Falcons, put some money in the turrets and beefed up the internals a little and sold them for $599, he'd own the market.

I know for me the jump to the PST offered some hope for the featureset I want with at least a promise of an answer to the reliability question mark, more defined adjustment feel, a little thinner reticle and a little less weight and bulk. I had to modify the windage turret on my 4-14 to allow cases to eject from my Tikka. The truth is, like a lot of guys, I'm looking for a Nightforce F1 or SB 5-25 on a budget. Not everyone can justify spending (or even scrape together)$2-3K on a scope.

John

 

[jrob300]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrtoyz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh...there is a competing product
http://www.cstactical.com/Store/OPTICS/R...0-30mm-FFP.html</div></div>

I'm aware of the Bushy. Due to the lack of internal travel and the now passe', plain-Jane MilDot reticle, it's just not a competitor for *me*.

John

 

[Snakum]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If there was a legitimate direct competitor, feature to feature price to price, to this particular optic currently available and ready to ship, I am afraid Vortex would have lost out to a LOT of people, at this point probably even myself included. frown
</div></div>

There is ... it is ... and it is ... and I own one because I knew the original PST ship date was likely optimistic (couldn't wait) and the scope was unproven (and we've seen here what that can mean).

 

[jrob300]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Benjamin_Breeg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do new product development and while project managers like hard and fast dates they tend to paint you into a corner. </div></div>

It's top down leadership that allows (drives?) Project Managers to paint you into a corner. Not every company runs like that.

John

 

[jrob300]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

While we're on the topic of company culture, I was thinking last night about this "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation, and how I would handle it if I were in charge at Vortex. Taking into account their, "we treat customers the way we would like to be treated" philosophy, this came to mind:

"We at Vortex regret the delay in shipment of the Viper PST line and any inconvenience it has cost our customers. We would like to show our concern and appreciation for your continued patience and support by offering the following:

For a limited time, anyone having a Viper PST on pre-order, may choose to upgrade to a Vortex Razor for $1599 including a set of 35mm rings. Incentives will be made available to your dealer to make this possible. These would ship immediately.

Should you choose to keep your existing order for a Viper PST, we will do the following:

When the product is available and your order is finalized, we will ship you, free of charge, your choice of:

Solo R/T 8x36 Tactical monocular
Strikefire Red Dot Scope
Scope Rings of your choice

Note: This applies ONLY to those pre-orders verified through your dealer.

We at Vortex understand that it is our loyal customers that keep us in business and we will do whatever it takes to provide you with the products and services to ensure your satisfaction and beyond. We thank you for your patience."

That's what I would do.

John

Disclaimer: <span style="font-weight: bold">this is NOT an official Vortex announcement, it's just my idea, so don't go full retard...

</span>

 

[ReaperDriver]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

And that's all I was trying to say. I'm not a Falcon fanboy by any stretch and I had fully intended to get A PST 6-24x based on the positive hype. But since I was pretty happy with the Falcon, I wanted to be sure I was getting double the quality and performance for double the price of the PST.

For me, the feature set was secondary because my Falcon already had everything I wanted (FFP, MLR, mil/mil) and it works. So the glass quality was going to be the discriminator for getting the PST. I was expecting it to have the features with roughly leupy MK4 or vx3 glass. Nothing I've seen suggests the glass is anywhere close. And it doesn't look like it's an extra $450 better glass than the Falcon.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

You raise a really good point, Reaper. My shooting partner just got a 5.5-25x50 Falcon and that thing actually has amazing glass and a *great* reticle. I had a 4-14 and never expected the 5.5-25's to look that good. There have been *some* reliability issues, which I believe that Vortex has insinuated will not be an issue with the PST, but remains to be seen. But it *is* a sub-$500 scope! Not sure how important illumination is to the majority of the market. If Nick invested a little more in the Falcons, put some money in the turrets and beefed up the internals a little and sold them for $599, he'd own the market.

I know for me the jump to the PST offered some hope for the featureset I want with at least a promise of an answer to the reliability question mark, more defined adjustment feel, a little thinner reticle and a little less weight and bulk. I had to modify the windage turret on my 4-14 to allow cases to eject from my Tikka. The truth is, like a lot of guys, I'm looking for a Nightforce F1 or SB 5-25 on a budget. Not everyone can justify spending (or even scrape together)$2-3K on a scope.

John </div></div>

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

I have to disagree reaper, while Mk4 glass it isn't, the pst is a very close second I believe. while I have only looked through one, and I dont know how consistent they are from scope to scope, I think the pst has great glass.

 

[cuffm4615]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

Well the one thing that I'm not happy with is the lack of communication we have gotten from Vortex after the first release when things went south. Before that, when everyone on these forums where making these to be the best thing ever, it seemed like we had a comment or some information coming from Vortex every day if not several times a day. Now the've gone silent and when they do comment its usually about a different item they sell. I am still looking forward to receiving the two Viper PST's I ordered I just wish they would let us know more.

 

[ReaperDriver]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have to disagree reaper, while Mk4 glass it isn't, the pst is a very close second I believe. while I have only looked through one, and I dont know how consistent they are from scope to scope, I think the pst has great glass. </div></div>

fair enough. I haven't looked through one so all I can go by are the pics I've seen here. But again nothing I've seen looks like the PST is twice as good glass as the falcon for twice the price. .

Seriously, I hope you guys that have one in hand or on the way have great luck with them. I'm going to pass for now..... At least until I actually look through one

 

[Benjamin_Breeg]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

They may or may not have lost some sales due to the rollout, but if they are betting the success of their product on the first set of pre-orders (and I assume they aren't), they won't be in business long. If I were developing this, and in stuff I do develop, I would be looking at long term. The amount of sales in the first month or two wouldn't be how I deemed success. Over time it will have little impact on overall success.

 

[Austincqc]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

Wow. It seems like everybody is being extremely tough on Vortex right now. I can definitely understand a little frustration over the lack of communication, however working in corporate sales, I can only imagine what's going on over there.

Scott mentioned making things right and halting production to make sure the QC was better along with some slight design changes. For all we know, he's in frickin' china smacking the commies around to get us our scopes.

From professional experience, the summer is just tough. A lot of employees take vacation and management picks up the slack.

I would love an update....because my new rifle is on the way. And it wants to get shot. Although this was my first choice, and I already own a Vortex scope and VERY pleased with it, I might start looking again. But I won't write them off my list...I'll just wait to put my hands on one and look through one before buying.

 

[m1k3]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

They have lost customers, at least several people on here have admitted to dropping their orders. I would be fully confident in saying that they are loosing business by the week on the PST but they may be picking up business somewhere else. The Original Vipers are pretty good scopes. And for those that want to go the other way there is the Razor.

We must also remember it wasn't just Vortex raising the expectations of the scope. Vendors were on here left and right during the "release". We had a live web video of one delivery, other vendors had multiple page threads about the new scopes with never before seen pics. Where are all those people now? They are all quiet! Not just Vortex.

Its disappointing. I am disappointed. I haven't dropped my order yet and more than likely won't. I may be loosing faith in Vortex, but I still have complete faith in the vendor I chose to order from.

Its gone from a sure bet that I was getting a great deal on a great scope to I HOPE I get what I pay for. That's a large shift in attitude from my perspective. And I feel that I'm not alone in that shift either.

Or perhaps everybody at Vortex planned the PST's would be a huge hit by now, thousands in stock, and the Vortex staff based their vacations around this time of year. Now that the shit is flying toward the fan, everybody is out but no PST's. Hence, the lack of response?

My 2 cents.

Mike
San Angelo

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ReaperDriver</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have to disagree reaper, while Mk4 glass it isn't, the pst is a very close second I believe. while I have only looked through one, and I dont know how consistent they are from scope to scope, I think the pst has great glass. </div></div>

fair enough. I haven't looked through one so all I can go by are the pics I've seen here. But again nothing I've seen looks like the PST is twice as good glass as the falcon for twice the price. .

</div></div>

I've got one of each, and the Falcon definately has a good picture. But the PST is better at the higher magnifications.

 

[mrtoyz]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

Yeah JRob, I skipped over the Bushnell because of only 48moa of travel as well. Too bad the glass sounds like its nice.

Like I said before. I dont blame Vortex for being closed lipped about a date the second time around, I dont agree with being completely silent about "everything". Its tough if they do the right thing and say we just dont have a timeframe right now because we want it to be perfect then they risk lossing alot of orders. On the flip side doing what they are doing they risk upseting everyone. Tough situation, that probably should have been a little better managed eariler... I feel for ya Vortex.

-T

 

[Snakum]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

I'm not sure why everyone harps on the amount of elevation travel on the Bushnell. I have a simple 20 MOA base and I've gone to 800 yards with plenty of twist left. If you're shooting a .300/.338 I guess I get the harping. But .308? C'mon ...

 

[Snakum]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

And about schedules ... I've managed extensively in manufacturing and in IT, and I swear that completing a very methodical design and first run production schedule and then adding as much as 25% for unforeseen events does dick to help forecast an accurate ship date. I've been to all the classes ... read all the books ... and have almost 20 years in the real world. It doesn't matter HOW much you add to a given task or task group or to an overall schedule ... you will STILL deliver late.

I call it the Emesis Effect. The First Law of the Theory of the Emesis Effect states that no matter how detailed and methodical your design and production plan, no matter how well thought-out your milestones, and no matter how much cushion you add to each segment ... the project will still puke on itself and be late.

 

[jrob300]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snakum</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not sure why everyone harps on the amount of elevation travel on the Bushnell. I have a simple 20 MOA base and I've gone to 800 yards with plenty of twist left. If you're shooting a .300/.338 I guess I get the harping. But .308? C'mon ...

</div></div>

Snakum,

I do shoot a 300WM and using the Falcon on a 20moa base, I was topped out at 19 mil with a 4 mil holdover at 1900 yds. I don't really want to go backwards too far. The PST only gives me 15.5 mil (on a 20 moa base) + 9 mil of reticle, so I may have to go to 25 or 30 moa.

John

 

[jrob300]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snakum</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And about schedules ... ... you will STILL deliver late.</div></div>

Snakum,

It's not just about missing a ship date to me. It's having the product get into the hands of the customer, after missing your first projected release date by almost two months, and THEN finding out that the turrets turn easily enough to adjust them selves in a drag bag or rack.

So, at this late date, there is either a design flaw or a manufacturing flub with a resultant QC faux pas that missed it.

Add to that the lack of substantive communication since and you get customers who get a little edgy. Especially those who paid cash up front and have been waiting how long?

John

 

[Benjamin_Breeg]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snakum</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And about schedules ... ... you will STILL deliver late.</div></div>

Snakum,

It's not just about missing a ship date to me. It's having the product get into the hands of the customer, after missing your first projected release date by almost two months, and THEN finding out that the turrets turn easily enough to adjust them selves in a drag bag or rack. Really?

So, at this late date, there is either a design flaw or a manufacturing flub with a resultant QC faux pus that missed it.

John </div></div>

If I recall, their release dates were tentative at best, and they were clear about that. As for design flaw or QC issues, maybe, maybe not. They possibly thought the turrets were good and just missed the mark. Too little information to speculate IMO.

 

[mrtoyz]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

Just sold my 308 getting a 338 as well.

JRob what is your zero? Falcon 5-25 (75moa) right?
Been talking to Paul at Vortex about rail moa. As I remember from Ballsitic FTE, we need 27.43mils to get to 2000yards. (300smk, 2700fps)
I just dont see how you can keep a reasonable zero and get to 2000 yards on a 20or30moa rail and the new Vortex.

-T

 

[jrob300]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrtoyz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just sold my 308 getting a 338 as well.

JRob what is your zero? Falcon 5-25 (75moa) right?
Been talking to Paul at Vortex about rail moa. As I remember from Ballsitic FTE, we need 27.43mils to get to 2000yards. (300smk, 2700fps)
I just dont see how you can keep a reasonable zero and get to 2000 yards on a 20or30moa rail and the new Vortex.

-T </div></div>

Actually it was a Falcon 4-14. 100 yd. zero. Exbal puts me at 24 mil to 2000. 208 Amax @ 2860 @ 4000f ASL.

The 6-24 PST has 19 mil total travel. Divide that in 2 = 9.5 mil. Add approx. 5.5 mil for 20moa rail = 15 mil. Reticle gives 9 mil at the bottom. 15 + 9 = 24 mil. Just barely... that's why I'm thinking 30 moa for comforts sake. That would give me about 26 mil up. I don't want to be locked into 0 windage.

John

ETA: Oh, and thank you for giving my brain *something* to churn on besides the fact that I have empty rings on my rife.

And thanks to Benjamin_Breeg for quoting me above and immortalizing the fact that I that I misspelled faux pas, too.

 

[mrtoyz]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

Ah the Falcon 4-14 has 75moa ten more than the Vortex...

Damn using a Falcon and getting 100-1900 using the reticle,nice.

What do you expect your zero to be using the 30 moa rail with the Vortex?

-T

 

[jrob300]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrtoyz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Damn using a Falcon and getting 100-1900 using the reticle,nice.</div></div>

I didn't get that all with the reticle, I had to dial 19 mil then hold over 4.

I'm assuming I can get 100 yds. zero. One trick I read on here somewhere, it might have been from Lindy, I don't remember, but it was pretty clever.

He takes his new scope to the range with some shim stock. runs the elevation down til it's almost bottomed, then shims the base in back til it's zeroed at 100 yds. Then goes home and beds the rail at an angle. I'll see if I can find the post. If it's a lot, I think you would have to re-drill the screw holes, but it might be something that would get you those extra 3-5 moa you might need.

John

 

[Snakum]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snakum</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And about schedules ... ... you will STILL deliver late.</div></div>

Snakum,

It's not just about missing a ship date to me. It's having the product get into the hands of the customer, after missing your first projected release date by almost two months, and THEN finding out that the turrets turn easily enough to adjust them selves in a drag bag or rack. Really?

So, at this late date, there is either a design flaw or a manufacturing flub with a resultant QC faux pus that missed it.

John</div></div>

Oh I'm not defending Vortex, just talking about new product rollout in general. Whether it's software, scopes, widgets, or dildos ... I don't think I've seen anything ship on time in almost twenty years.

Considering the delays I'd be kinda pissed too if my new PST was not 100%. I don't blame anyone for being a little peeved.

 

[jrob300]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snakum</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh I'm not defending Vortex, just talking about new product rollout in general. Whether it's software, scopes, widgets, or dildos ... I don't think I've seen anything ship on time in almost twenty years.

</div></div>

I agree with you. The funny thing is, I've worked with some really good program managers in my career as an engineer, and most of them would have hit their schedule, except for pressure from above. Most of the professionals I've worked with have a *pretty* good idea how long stuff takes, it's when a board of directors, shareholders or some egotistical CEO who thinks his reputation is on the line start mucking around in things, schedule goes to hell in a handbasket.

In 23 years the ONLY schedule I saw hit on the nose was one I wrote and then my VP put his job on the line to give us the time to do the project right. Product shipped on-time with no rollout problems. Of course, when we hit the schedule, we were accused of padding it then sandbagging to hit it. You can't win.

I do tend to think idealistically, and believe that all management teams should be supportive of their people and give them the space to do their job well, but most of the time, it's as you said.

John

 

[elkstalker338]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

I hope we here something tomorrow or tuesday, can understand that its the weekend but hopefully they will have some news when the week starts up, I sent a scope back in march for repair and still havent seen it yet, called the manufacture a couple of weeks ago and they said hopefully I will have it buy october :-( I am pretty pissed off on their lifetime warrenty policy, hopefully if I ever need vortex they will stand behind me better then the other company, I will not say who it is now

 

[BigDKC]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

In response to the previous posts about bushnell and falcon:

Bushnell: $100 more, and a ONE YEAR Warranty? No thanks.

Falcon: Have to admit I know nothing about them. Though I haven't exactly seen them be raved about over and over on the various forums. Further more have you seen their website ? Went to it just now to see what I could see, I couldn't see anything so I have no idea what I am, or possibly am not missing. Once again, I'll pass. I shouldn't have to go digging through vendor websites just to find out what kind of products they offer. This is 2010, a companies internet presence, whether they like it or not, is intensely important in today's market. I am not motivated to purchase anything from them. Call it what you will.

I kind of feel like I have to go on the defensive for my comment above and find that a bit odd. I am not slamming anyone or getting too bent about anything all things considered. But at this point I am ready to move on and get this over with. While I am able to afford the things I have or I am currently in the process of purchasing, it took all I could muster to pull that trigger and spend $900 on a scope! Again I am new to this, and now I realize that price point is still in the low end of things relatively speaking, for me that was a shit ton of money for a scope! So having $900 out there in la-la land for several weeks now is getting harder and harder to swallow.

I simply saying, and don't see how much of anybody could disagree, that if there was a Nightforce or S&B or USO scope that had the biggest portion of the features of the PST covered, had the same unlimited warranty, and the reputation that vortex has or better, and it was within a couple hundred bucks. I would have jumped ship, end of story.

 

[kenv50]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

I don't want to hijack the thread but I don't know what to do on my Vortex order.

I keep on getting expected ship dates from Optical Planet. They say the dates they give out are the dates they get from Vortex. So I wrote to Vortex and received the nice reply listed below

"Hello Ken,
First let me say we understand your frustration and trust me we feel it too. Let me get your first question out of the way. We have never given any dealer or indivduals a firm date on the arrival of these scopes and we certainly have never cancelled any dates especially since we didnt provide any dates. We are always very careful to only give out estimations because in this business sometimes we dont know the exact date until literally a week or so before we ship product (this has to do with testing and so forth). We did ship a few scopes out in late June and a few customers were not happy with how easy the turrets turned. They said "the clicks are great, but there is just not enough resistance",so we are workiong to fix this issue before we send anymore out. These scopes are our number one priority and we are doing everything possible do get them out to you guys as quickly as we can. It could be 3 weeks or could be a month or two it all depends on how long it takes to update all of them. I wish I could give you a firm date ,but at this point if I did I would just be lying to you. Hang in there we are doing everything that we can possibly do at this point. If you have any further questions feel free to contact us anytime."

Having ordered the scope in May I am getting a little tired of waiting. But more importantly I am afraid of the loose adjustment knobs!!!!

The pictures through the scope look good to me but I am a 60 year old near sighted guy. I am on the fense of canceling this order and going with a IOR 4-14x50 or 3-18x42. They are more money but a proved available product.

What are you other guys who have Viper PSTs on order doing/thinking?

Kenv50

 

[jrob300]

Re: another Vortex Viper PST FFP 1/10mil 4-16x rev

BigDKC,

If you're looking for an entry level optic that will teach you a LOT for the money, the Falcon's are not a bad place to start. I used mine for over a year with no problems on targets from point blank to 1900 yds.

Get one from RWS Gunsmithing. He and Nick Watts at Falcon have been amazing. That's where my shooting partner just got his 5.5-25. His has amazing glass. Great Reticle. Decent internals.

Can you blow them up with tannerite and expect them to work... uh, maybe not. If you're life is depending on this scope, move along. But sub-$500? Really? A great value for what it costs, website notwithstanding. Apparently they decided to spend their money elsewhere.

.02

John

 

[jrob300]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kenv50</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What are you other guys who have Viper PSTs on order doing/thinking?

Kenv50 </div></div>

Ken,

I'm frustrated too.

The IOR 3-18 has a checkered history also. I'd research that VERY thoroughly. Especially since they just came out with a new version that's 50mm objective and much more expensive. Call Scott @ Liberty Optics. He'll give you the straight scoop.

Right now, because FFP is very important to me for wind holds at any magnification, I'm torn between: waiting for the PST's, going backwards to a Falcon 5.5-25, or beg, borrow, steal my way up to a Razor 5-20 or a NF F1 3-15.

John

ETA: FWIW, I doubt that the knobs will be an issue when they finally ship. This seems to be the major holdup.

 

[Oddball Six]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

Holy hell, people, ease up.

jrob300, you seem to have a hard on for vortex. If you need to buy another optic, go buy another optic. Its precisely because of shit-ass speculative threads where people who dont have a clear picture of what is going on slam a company all to hell because they arent releasing every little detail and a fully detailed schedule of release dates.

You claim to be an engineer. Even you have admitted in this thread that you cant win.

So why do you expect Vortex to dance to your personal tune if they know they cant win doing that either?

The responsible thing here is what they have done. "Damn, sorry, yeah these things have an issue." Note that its a feature issue. They listened to thier community and in the first couple days of feedback recognized that thier end users wanted something changed. It passed QC because it wasn't "broken" - it just wasnt as stiff as we demanded.

They took it in the shorts on giving up revenue moments away from being realized, told the customers who already have hardware that they will get the fixes for free per the lifetime warranty, and stopped shipping to make sure that when product goes out, it meets the high standards we demand.

Could they be out there and at least tell us a target date? Sure. But they have already done that. The answer was "When its fixed." and I am sorry its not specific enough for you.

Ive seen people here bitching that the original ballpark date was may and they didnt go out until June/July. Remember that the hard date then was "when its ready".

If they came out here and said august and took an extra week or two to make sure the updated product was right, we would be doing the same thing a month from now screaming bloody murder because they didnt make august. Thats what they are trying to avoid. Over-critical super-hyped hardcore fanboy threads whining because vortex isnt doing things the way they think it should be done.

I have a pre-order. I placed it months ago. I am not cancelling it. When I placed it, Vortex's hard commitment date was "when it is done".

We knew what we were getting ourselves into. If you are truly an engineer, you probably should have anticipated it, too. If you have hard commitments that you need an optic for, then cancel the sale, get another product, and then see how things turn out in a few months. But stop railing on about vortex this and vortex that. (I guarantee you they are doing the best they can (this is each of their living and overall profitability on the line after all) and its few manufacturers at all who engage with the community like these guys do.

Its threads like this one which is why the rest don't. Dealing with all the whiny arrogant crap gets grating after a while and becomes potentially dangerous to your brand if your people ever lose their temper in public.

 

[Short-bus]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Holy hell, people, ease up.

jrob300, you seem to have a hard on for vortex. If you need to buy another optic, go buy another optic. Its precisely because of shit-ass speculative threads where people who dont have a clear picture of what is going on slam a company all to hell because they arent releasing every little detail and a fully detailed schedule of release dates.

You claim to be an engineer. Even you have admitted in this thread that you cant win.

So why do you expect Vortex to dance to your personal tune if they know they cant win doing that either?

The responsible thing here is what they have done. "Damn, sorry, yeah these things have an issue." Note that its a feature issue. They listened to thier community and in the first couple days of feedback recognized that thier end users wanted something changed. It passed QC because it wasn't "broken" - it just wasnt as stiff as we demanded.

They took it in the shorts on giving up revenue moments away from being realized, told the customers who already have hardware that they will get the fixes for free per the lifetime warranty, and stopped shipping to make sure that when product goes out, it meets the high standards we demand.

Could they be out there and at least tell us a target date? Sure. But they have already done that. The answer was "When its fixed." and I am sorry its not specific enough for you.

Ive seen people here bitching that the original ballpark date was may and they didnt go out until June/July. Remember that the hard date then was "when its ready".

If they came out here and said august and took an extra week or two to make sure the updated product was right, we would be doing the same thing a month from now screaming bloody murder because they didnt make august. Thats what they are trying to avoid. Over-critical super-hyped hardcore fanboy threads whining because vortex isnt doing things the way they think it should be done.

I have a pre-order. I placed it months ago. I am not cancelling it. When I placed it, Vortex's hard commitment date was "when it is done".

We knew what we were getting ourselves into. If you are truly an engineer, you probably should have anticipated it, too. If you have hard commitments that you need an optic for, then cancel the sale, get another product, and then see how things turn out in a few months. But stop railing on about vortex this and vortex that. (I guarantee you they are doing the best they can (this is each of their living and overall profitability on the line after all) and its few manufacturers at all who engage with the community like these guys do.

Its threads like this one which is why the rest don't. Dealing with all the whiny arrogant crap gets grating after a while and becomes potentially dangerous to your brand if your people ever lose their temper in public. </div></div>

I was going to say that same thing as you, only less eloquently, and likely completely different in every way

. I'm waiting a while to order my Vortex, by a while I mean a month or two, maybe three, want to see a few more get out there, and perhaps if any other issues arise, give Vortex a chance to update the model and get new ones out there. I have a WOTAC on my .22, good scope, i'm happy with it, but not terribly long after I got mine, they had a update, and it had some features that I want, I won't make the same mistake again. I'm patient, the Mk4 I have now will serve me well enough until it's time to replace it.

Branden

 

[jrob300]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oddball-Six</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Holy hell, people, ease up.</div></div>

Sorry Oddball if you don't approve of my disapproval. Ironic isn't it, how you come out of the gate doing to me what you're accusing me of doing to Vortex. I was at lest patient with them from the beginning, even quite forgiving when others on this site were bashing them for building scopes in the Phillipines, I made a case for why this made good business sense and if managed well could be very successful. They have great potential, in my mind at least, to be a very successful optics manufacturer. Perhaps a little too diversified... seems a little like they're not really sure who to target. If you target everybody, eventually you end up like Leupold and I don't want to see that.

If there was an easy scope answer, I'd have taken it by now, which is why the subject IS important to me, Vortex offered pretty much the scope a lot of us were looking for in a price range that would not break the bank. I used to be employed as an engineer, which means that I USED to make an engineers salary. That's long gone now and the dollars don't come as easily as they once did. 10 years ago, I'd have gone out and bought the S&B and been done with it. Moving up to the next tier of FFP scopes is prohibitive at this time, and trust me, I've run through all the other options a thousand times in my head and nothing gives me the features I want. Even the PST is a little short on travel, but I can work with it, if it turns out to be mechanically reliable. A series of free scopes in the mail does not a product make.


John

 

[m1k3]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

I don't see what the point is of making comments about each other in here. We are all in this thread for the same thing, a quality scope. Lets keep on focus here. Nobody(Vortex) will respect a group of unhappy people(customers) if they are fighting amongst them selves(thread bashing).

The main point was that we would all like a little information (similar to all the information that was relayed prior to the first launch). That's it. We can't say as a collective that the scopes are great, they rock, they suck, blah blah blah with such a few samples out on the hands of customers. What we can do is request information. Request an update, something.

As for me, I requested one of the new scopes Dec 6th from Liberty Optics. I have changed which one I have wanted several times but none the less, I have been waiting with Scott(LO) since December. I'm willing to wait a while longer given that the product will meet my expectations. As I said before, I was sure I was getting a great deal. That has now fallen to I HOPE I get a good deal. Time will tell but so far, I'm still pulling for Vortex. We just need to pull together.

For fuck sake, lets be adults.

Mike

 

[Oddball Six]

Re: Vortex Viper PST FFP shippment

I, too say lets give them a little longer and the benefit of the doubt. Thats all.

When you recieve one later, if it isnt up to par (FOR its pricepoint!) then by all means, pull no punches.

It just sucks to see a great new company with a lot of promise and a handful of solid products behind them get pummeled because they chose to try and meet OUR needs by stopping shipment to fix some points we weren't happy with as a community.