Rifle issue. Wtf?

[Taylorbok]

rifles a Tikka T3x in an Oryx chassis chambered in 22 Creed. Rifle has never given me an issue probably about 500 rounds through it. And is usually a tac driver. I am in the process of switching over to mil scopes and sold all my old scopes and picked up 2 new Athlons (one Helos one Ares) and waiting on the rest. I mounted up the Helos, zeroed and shot a few groups. All was good.

Went to the range today and only 2/3 would be on paper. Wtf? So I put up a 3’x4’ board and the missing round would even miss that. I checked action screws, rail screws and fasteners on rings. Everything was good.

I mounted the Ares thinking the scope was bad but same thing.

I couldn’t see where the missing round was going so I stepped it back to 300 yards and shot at a large berm. Well the missing rounds seem to be hitting the ground at about 200 yards and about 7 yards left.

Either I got 2 bad scopes or something else is up. Any other ideas? Oh I ran a bore scope in there and everything looks fine. Maybe a bit dirty but nothing to be worried about.

Of course I’m supposed to shoot a match tomorrow.

 

[Hawk in WY]

Something is loose internal or external to the scope.

Bore sight it and try again.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

rifles a Tikka T3x in an Oryx chassis chambered in 22 Creed. Rifle has never given me an issue probably about 500 rounds through it. And is usually a tac driver. I am in the process of switching over to mil scopes and sold all my old scopes and picked up 2 new Athlons (one Helos one Ares) and waiting on the rest. I mounted up the Helos, zeroed and shot a few groups. All was good.

Went to the range today and only 2/3 would be on paper. Wtf? So I put up a 3’x4’ board and the missing round would even miss that. I checked action screws, rail screws and fasteners on rings. Everything was good.

I mounted the Ares thinking the scope was bad but same thing.

I couldn’t see where the missing round was going so I stepped it back to 300 yards and shot at a large berm. Well the missing rounds seem to be hitting the ground at about 200 yards and about 7 yards left.

Either I got 2 bad scopes or something else is up. Any other ideas? Oh I ran a bore scope in there and everything looks fine. Maybe a bit dirty but nothing to be worried about.

Of course I’m supposed to shoot a match tomorrow.

Something had to be loose. Check your break, check your everything. The odds of 2 new scopes doing the same thing the same way is ridiculous

 

[acudaowner]

 

[Taylorbok]

I checked all the fasteners. Rifle doesn’t have a brake. Im gonna go over it again here shortly just to double check. Gonna actually take the action out of the chassis and make sure nothing is some how between the chassis but I hadn’t touched anything else since shooting it last

 

[dimar1492]

Check that the barrel itself isn't loose. I know it seems unlikely and it is, but I've seen it before on a hand tightened barrel.

 

[The King]

Had seen this behavior before when the barrel came loose.

Also, lol, i’m guessing these were reloads? If so, you might not have put in the powder charge.

 

[Taylorbok]

Had seen this behavior before when the barrel came loose.

Also, lol, i’m guessing these were reloads? If so, you might not have put in the powder charge.

They all registered on my Labradar. Right in the mix.

Barrel seems tight. Only way I have to check is by hand…?
I removed all fasteners and retorqued. Nothing seemed loose.

There seemed to be a light layer of oil under the rear action screw, I could see if this was causing random fliers but to be bouncing around that much seems like a stretch

 

[spife7980]

What bullet, twist rate and velocity?

 

[Taylorbok]

What bullet, twist rate and velocity?

90gr Berger’s 1:7 twist at 3175fps

 

[Taylorbok]

I’m currently loading ammo for another rifle so I can shoot the match. Gonna strap one of these scopes on and hopefully get a zero there and see what happens.

There’s no way 2 rifles took a dump overnight.

 

[patriotnation]

Are the bullets disintegrating mid flight copper jacket coming off?

 

[Taylorbok]

Are the bullets disintegrating mid flight copper jacket coming off?

I was thinking that but why all of a sudden? Never had an issue before and according to Berger they are properly stabilized

 

[patriotnation]

Just tossing it out there
Falling short, not on paper at all
All I can think of
It’s not like you are pushing way too fast

What barrel is it?
Tikka?

 

[Taylorbok]

Just tossing it out there
Falling short, not on paper at all
All I can think of
It’s not like you are pushing way too fast

What barrel is it?
Tikka?

KS arms barrel

 

[Wannashootit]

(Biting my lip as I ask...) Do you have a borescope?
It'd be really premature at 500 rounds down the tube to go south, but I'd take a look at the throat.

 

[Barelstroker]

rifles a Tikka T3x in an Oryx chassis chambered in 22 Creed. Rifle has never given me an issue probably about 500 rounds through it. And is usually a tac driver. I am in the process of switching over to mil scopes and sold all my old scopes and picked up 2 new Athlons (one Helos one Ares) and waiting on the rest. I mounted up the Helos, zeroed and shot a few groups. All was good.

Went to the range today and only 2/3 would be on paper. Wtf? So I put up a 3’x4’ board and the missing round would even miss that. I checked action screws, rail screws and fasteners on rings. Everything was good.

I mounted the Ares thinking the scope was bad but same thing.

I couldn’t see where the missing round was going so I stepped it back to 300 yards and shot at a large berm. Well the missing rounds seem to be hitting the ground at about 200 yards and about 7 yards left.

Either I got 2 bad scopes or something else is up. Any other ideas? Oh I ran a bore scope in there and everything looks fine. Maybe a bit dirty but nothing to be worried about.

Of course I’m supposed to shoot a match tomorrow.

What's the barrel twist rate?

 

[supercorndogs]

I toasted a 22-250 in 700, started blowing up bullets like that. 80g a max, around 500 it did it and scrubbed the copper out and it stopped, for about 100, then needed it again, then for about 50 and needed it again, then another 50 and needed it again, then i called it crap. You could see the copper build up for several inches in front of the chamber looking through the action.

 

[Taylorbok]

Bore looks fine to me. I’ll try and post some pics

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

Problem started when the OP changed optics - same problems with 2 new scopes. The probability of 2 scopes being defective right out of the box is not very high. I had a similar occurrence a couple of years ago - mounted a new scope and then after a few range sessions groups slowly opened up and there were fliers all over the place.

It was the scope rail - the screws were tight and I could detect no perceivable shifting of the scope when twisting on it. I was told by every expert I was slapping the trigger, pulling the shots, and that I was the problem. Turned out to be the rail was shifting enough that if I dry fired I could see the scope picture change/jump when the pin fell.

Pulled the rail, bedded it, new screws, loc-tite. Gun is now a consistent 1/2 MOA shooter now like it was before the new scope..

VooDoo

 

[Mike Casselton]

So, the top of your action looked like this?

 

[Taylorbok]

I put the Ares on another rifle and it’s just fine. So I’m assuming that other scope is fine also. I haven’t had a chance to shoot the 22 creed again but all the fasteners are tight.

I’m going to scrub the bore really good and then see what happens. I’m really leaning to its tearing the jacket off.
I need to get someone to shoot for me so I can watch.

I really hope it’s not the barrel, that’s the rifle I actually have a decent supply of components for.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I put the Ares on another rifle and it’s just fine. So I’m assuming that other scope is fine also. I haven’t had a chance to shoot the 22 creed again but all the fasteners are tight.

I’m going to scrub the bore really good and then see what happens. I’m really leaning to its tearing the jacket off.
I need to get someone to shoot for me so I can watch.

I really hope it’s not the barrel, that’s the rifle I actually have a decent supply of components for.

I would take the rail off and clean it and the screws then lock tight it back on. Lock tight on top of the action and on the screws then torque em. Got to be something like that

 

[Taylorbok]

I would take the rail off and clean it and the screws then lock tight it back on. Lock tight on top of the action and on the screws then torque em. Got to be something like that

I did remove rail cleaned and re locktite screws. I didn’t put anything on the surfaces.
If it was putting them outside the group I’d agree with you but it’s like several feet difference

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I did remove rail cleaned and re locktite screws. I didn’t put anything on the surfaces.
If it was putting them outside the group I’d agree with you but it’s like several feet difference

You said it doesn't have a break, what does it have on the muzzle?

 

[Taylorbok]

You said it doesn't have a break, what does it have on the muzzle?

Target crown.

 

[Vodoun daVinci]

So, the top of your action looked like this?

View attachment 7968154

Exactly....exactly as yer picture. And I had previously Loc-Tite treated the screws and retorqued them but the rail kept shifting until I bedded it.

VooDoo

 

[LuvDog]

Hand feeding or mag feeding? Maybe a bad mag and the projectile is getting mangled on the feed?

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I did remove rail cleaned and re locktite screws. I didn’t put anything on the surfaces.
If it was putting them outside the group I’d agree with you but it’s like several feet difference

I would still bed the rail in lock tight and make sure there isn't something holding a screw up from sitting all the way down or something. I'd look at that really closely because that's the mostly likely imo. It can look like it's not moving and still be moving enough to throw the shot way off like that. Some rails contour doesn't match well with the receiver and as a result, it had a wobble that you can't see.

 

[spife7980]

I’d bed the rail with some sort of bedding material and not glob loctite all over everything.

That’s not going to cause bullets to be yards off.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I’d bed the rail with some sort of bedding material and not glob loctite all over everything.

That’s not going to cause bullets to be yards off.

It can definitely cause "several feet difference " at 100. I've seen it on a hunting rifle do exactly that. I don't know about yards but 3 feet or so, yes.

It all depends on how much space there is but most rails don't leave much void area so lock tight works very well in my experience amd isn't horribly difficult to get off when needed. If it's a decent amount of space then yes, some bedding compound would be better.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Exactly....exactly as yer picture. And I had previously Loc-Tite treated the screws and retorqued them but the rail kept shifting until I bedded it.

VooDoo

I did the lazy thing and just replaced the rail.

 

[Taylorbok]

I’m pretty sure the rail isn’t moving, if it was moving enough to cause this kind of problem I’m sure I’d see it. It’s never caused an issue before. I will report back after a thorough cleaning and shooting.

 

[wade2big]

I’d bed the rail with some sort of bedding material and not glob loctite all over everything.

That’s not going to cause bullets to be yards off.

Sako uses red loctite on their TRG scope bases. Takes a bit of work to get off.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

The owner of Spuhr suggests lubricant between the rail and rings/mount. He was able to move the mount on a properly torqued rail consistently. It's an issue with the "rough" surfaces of the metal. "Rough" on a microscopic level.

 

[Taylorbok]

Sako uses red loctite on their TRG scope bases. Takes a bit of work to get off.

Action and rail have a recoil pin/hole.

The owner of Spuhr suggests lubricant between the rail and rings/mount. He was able to move the mount on a properly torqued rail consistently. It's an issue with the "rough" surfaces of the metal. "Rough" on a microscopic level.

A) that doesn’t even make sense. Add lubricant to something you don’t want moving because it’s moving.
B) Rings have never caused an issue

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I've never heard of putting lube on a base rail?

I have used blue loctite many times on rails and it works great. One of my buddies hunting rifles had an issue with a 20moa rail that a gunsmith put on that did this exact thing and after we redid it and loctited it with blue, it was good to go from then on. We never did see the rail move when we tried to move it but it must have been "rocking" a little. That's why I've been suspect of the rail. It's got to be something of that nature happening if the bullets aren't exploding or something.

 

[Taylorbok]

I've never heard of putting lube on a base rail?

I have used blue loctite many times on rails and it works great. One of my buddies hunting rifles had an issue with a 20moa rail that a gunsmith put on that did this exact thing and after we redid it and loctited it with blue, it was good to go from then on. We never did see the rail move when we tried to move it but it must have been "rocking" a little. That's why I've been suspect of the rail. It's got to be something of that nature happening if the bullets aren't exploding or something.

Rails that I’ve been able to see and feel move have moved rounds like 3-4 inches not feet. I’ll update when I figure it out.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

I've never heard of putting lube on a base rail?

Neither had I until he mentioned and explained it.

 

[Old Man with Gun]

I would set up a big target close and shoot 10-20 shots. I think it will tell you much.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Neither had I until he mentioned and explained it.

What was his explanation for it? I'm always up for learning something new. I guess he would be doing it to get a good seat on the rail?

 

[918v]

The owner of Spuhr suggests lubricant between the rail and rings/mount. He was able to move the mount on a properly torqued rail consistently. It's an issue with the "rough" surfaces of the metal. "Rough" on a microscopic level.

You mean the lubricant is the cause of the movement, right?

 

[Jefe's Dope]

What was his explanation for it? I'm always up for learning something new. I guess he would be doing it to get a good seat on the rail?

The material, aluminum, is rough, on a microscopic level, and can move when enough force is applied even when properly torqued. The lubricant allows the metals to mate better.

You mean the lubricant is the cause of the movement, right?

No. It improves the interface of the rail and the rings/mount. For the same reasons you lube bolts on automobiles, etc.

 

[Taylorbok]

I would set up a big target close and shoot 10-20 shots. I think it will tell you much.

I had a 3'x4' target at 100 yards at one point and the bullets that didn't stack didn't hit the target. I guess I could try coming into 50 and see, I really don't know what a separating bullet hole should look like...?

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

The material, aluminum, is rough, on a microscopic level, and can move when enough force is applied even when properly torqued. The lubricant allows the metals to mate better.


No. It improves the interface of the rail and the rings/mount. For the same reasons you lube bolts on automobiles, etc.

That's why I prefer the blue lock tight. It lubes the surfaces so they mate well and then dries so it takes up any void space and keeps the two stuck together. I really don't know which is best but the blue locktite has worked really well for me

 

[Old Man with Gun]

I had a 3'x4' target at 100 yards at one point and the bullets that didn't stack didn't hit the target. I guess I could try coming into 50 and see, I really don't know what a separating bullet hole should look like...?

Get close, separating bullets do not leave round holes, you may get key holes.

Also the pattern will matter. If you get two tight groups far apart, something is shifting. A line of bullets is something lose but has a patern with limits. A shotgun pattern could be several things.

 

[Taylorbok]

Get close, separating bullets do not leave round holes, you may get key holes.

Also the pattern will matter. If you get two tight groups far apart, something is shifting. A line of bullets is something lose but has a patern with limits. A shotgun pattern could be several things.

see this is why I don't think anything is moving. The bullets on the paper is a bug hole even at 200 yards but then others are off the paper.

 

[John Glidewell]

90gr Berger’s 1:7 twist at 3175fps

That is over 325k rpm.

 

[Old Man with Gun]

see this is why I don't think anything is moving. The bullets on the paper is a bug hole even at 200 yards but then others are off the paper.

So some but not all may be coming apart, losing velocity quickly and tumbling explaining why they are hitting dirt only 200yds out when aiming for 300yds.

Just because the load worked, dosen't mean it is still stable.

 

[Baron23]

Ah...what am I missing here?? Jack the altitude to 1k and temp to 100F and stability factor comes out to 1.6 which is just over the 1.5 minimum comfortably stability factor.