Quick question when shooting prone or off barricades. Do you get the rifle high in the shoulder pocket so its sits in the pocket like a shelf? I find when it is lower in the pocket it tends to slip down under recoil. Could not find anything on the hide that addressed this issue. I find when I set it higher it is more stable and keeps my head more level on the cheek rest, just wanted to get others take on it. Thanks
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Advanced Marksmanship Rifle Position in the Shoulder Pocket
- Thread starter Walker TR
- Start date
Big key for me is RELAXED shoulder and pulling into it with the BICEP. Yelling with caps on the important parts lol.
From what I've gathered on the online training stuff, you should be pulling the rifle back into your shoulder pocket with enough force (force equal to the weight of your rifle) so that it shouldn't slip under recoil. The height IMO would just be whats the most comfortable to you as the shooter, you can adjust the cheekpiece up and down on most rifles now to adjust where the rifle is going to sit comfortably. When you let off the rifle with your firing hand your support hand should hold the rifle secure until you've cycled the bolt and return your firing hand to the grip.
Jake
Jake
I'd also add that the rearward pressure you apply to the rifle should be more than the weight of the rifle if it is a lighter heavy recoiling rifle. An 8 pound 300wm will need more reward pressure applied to keep the rifle under control thru recoil than an 8 pound 223rem, but the weight of the rifle is a good starting point.
As said above, you need to find the comfortable spot where the stock can 'sit' thats not sitting on bone and feels somewhat natural. Then you need to make sure you are square to the gun as well as that you have absolutely no tensions from muscles in your shoulder 'pushing' forward on the gun. The only muscle you should feel is your bicep pulling the gun back via the 3/4 fingers on the bottom of your shooting hand.
Most people don't hold the gun tight enough as well as let go under recoil.
Most people don't hold the gun tight enough as well as let go under recoil.
Oh, man, I've got to try that! I've always been placing the butt stock in my shoulder pocket and straining my neck to get the eye behind the scope.
What does he have that mounted in? Even when hes smacking the stock around when talking it doesn't move.
This is the adjustment I have made off barricades which has taken my shooting to another level compared to it being in the soft shoulder pocket. Really has worked for me.
I would have to think this has application for shooting prone as well....
I already place the butt pad on my collar bone in the prone - not the most comfortable but provides the best results. A quick dry-fire experiment of moving it a bit more inboard did not seem to increase discomfort, and got my head almost perfectly upright.
The torture we put ourselves through in pursuit of perfection...
I went through a Magpul precision rifle course and they were instructing a more inbound position. I tried it and it took some adjusting but it did help especially prone and shooting off a tripod. It also helped on a long day of shooting by getting some of the recoil into a position where the body would absorb it better with out upsetting your natural poa. Really like it off a tripod or barricade prone it seems like your a laying on top of the rifle if you are shooting with a full stock instead of a chassis of some type.
I'm 6'6" 346 lb and had a bad car crash a few years ago with resultant back and neck injury. So I admittedly am not the typical shooter, nor PRS competitor. After almost 2 years of shooting and competing I was all but ready to give it up due to an inability to spot my shots and ice pick in my neck type pain every time I shot.
Phillip Vellayo, Gunwerks instructor, thankfully shared what is illustrated in the video above with me a few months ago. The width of my torso meant shouldering the rifle in the pocket, as most all folks would instruct, put the optic too far away from my centerline. So I had to lay my head over on an angle to try to see through the optic. This set off a snowball effect that exceeds the purpose of this post.
I now have the rifle mounted on the upper portion of my collarbone much more to the centerline of my body. My neck no longer hurts and the reticle barely moves at all during The recoil impulse. The end result is that I can now spot my shots and shoot pain free.
Thank God we have folks like Phillip and Scott willing to share what they have learned with us. What I perceived as a lack of talent and or poor vision, were in reality poorly implemented fundamentals. Just because you read something in a book does not mean that it's right. At least not for every shooter.
I'm still a work in progress but I've never been so comfortable behind my rifle!
Dan
NC
Phillip Vellayo, Gunwerks instructor, thankfully shared what is illustrated in the video above with me a few months ago. The width of my torso meant shouldering the rifle in the pocket, as most all folks would instruct, put the optic too far away from my centerline. So I had to lay my head over on an angle to try to see through the optic. This set off a snowball effect that exceeds the purpose of this post.
I now have the rifle mounted on the upper portion of my collarbone much more to the centerline of my body. My neck no longer hurts and the reticle barely moves at all during The recoil impulse. The end result is that I can now spot my shots and shoot pain free.
Thank God we have folks like Phillip and Scott willing to share what they have learned with us. What I perceived as a lack of talent and or poor vision, were in reality poorly implemented fundamentals. Just because you read something in a book does not mean that it's right. At least not for every shooter.
I'm still a work in progress but I've never been so comfortable behind my rifle!
Dan
NC
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Thanks for sharing Dan. I'm gonna have to give it another try from prone.
It is certainly well worth experimenting with. I have mostly used it in the prone so far and modified prone to a lesser extent. I'm retraining myself now in an effort to use this technique exclusively. While still early I'm confident that this change is bearing fruit.
When you say you have the rifle mounted on the upper portion of your collar bone can you expound on that a bit please. You have the butt stock braced on your collar bone?
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Butt pad is positioned much like the still image of Phillip Velayo above. My butt pad is perhaps higher on the collar bone to get the rifle up to my eye, I'm a bigger guy. But yes, the butt is directly on the collar bone. Best tip I ever got, truly.
Dan
Dan
I couldn't agree with this more. I watched Phillip Velayo's video when he posted it and it is by far the most helpful shooting advice that I have ever received. It has totally changed the way I shoot.
My take on his advice is that you should try to position the rifle butt on your body as high and medial (i.e. close to the centerline) as possible. In most situations this will result in the butt resting on the medial portion of your collarbone close to where it attaches to the sternum. I found this a little uncomfortable at first but soon got used to it.
The reason for doing this is that, when shooting from any supported, 'straight behind the rifle' position, it enables your head to remain in the most natural, upright, comfortable position possible when looking through the scope. I found that it improved my accuracy and recoil management and enabled me to manipulate the bolt and magazines more efficiently while looking through the scope.
For me this change also required some fairly significant changes in rifle setup. I found that I had to move scopes from all the way forward to all the way back, lower cheek rests and change to longer bipods. I am now planning to shorten a couple of stocks to reduce length of pull as I have found that, even with scopes as far back as they will go, my eye is too far from the eyepiece.
Adjusted my gun fit also. Which was simple, and similar to what you described. No more goose necking, lol. I have never been so comfortable behind my rifles. And spotting my shots was biggest reason for the change, which was greatly effective towards realizing this goal.
Dan
NC
Dan
NC
Guys thank you for going into that detail wow. I have struggled to find comfort and am encouraged to read this.....bad eye sight(-8.5 Rx) has always left me fidgeting b/c if I don't keep looking through pretty much the dead center of my lenses(optical center) then my vision goes south very quickly. That means I can't tilt my head forward(prone) and have to keep lenses as close to vertical with scope as possible.....historically. I have been experiencing pretty much everything you guys described.....looking forward to trying this! I have an extremely high cheek rest and have had to lay my head sidways to keep head/Rx lenses upright. Discomfort large, recoil management horrible. Thanks!
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If I'm doing it right I am sore at the end of the day from taking recoil on my collar bone.
Pocket of the shoulder feels nice but it's not conducive to achieving what you are trying to do.
Off the bench I can't get the rifle where it should be and that's why bench sucks but it's what I end up shooting the most.
Pocket of the shoulder feels nice but it's not conducive to achieving what you are trying to do.
Off the bench I can't get the rifle where it should be and that's why bench sucks but it's what I end up shooting the most.
This is something that always made me raise eyebrows a bit. I'm not going to add a thing until I fully explore the range of fit changes and a 'break in' period for my collar bone. Having said that I can see where maybe this could find a place worthy of experimenting if I'm still not quite in the groove after a month or so.
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Along with mounting on collar bone, I focused more than in past on ensuring my shoulders were square to Target. In an effort to improve my natural point of aim, which is improving as a result.
These changes to my fundamentals, which were admittingly poor, meant my old gun fit had optic too far forward. So I had to look at shorter length of pull and moving optic rearward. Didn't take much of each, 1/4-1/2" on both as I recall. A little quick experimentation while employing good fundamentals is all that was required.
The benefit, once gun fit to the new body position, it serves as a check, because if I skip back to my old (bad) technique the view through the optic is compromised.
Dan
NC
These changes to my fundamentals, which were admittingly poor, meant my old gun fit had optic too far forward. So I had to look at shorter length of pull and moving optic rearward. Didn't take much of each, 1/4-1/2" on both as I recall. A little quick experimentation while employing good fundamentals is all that was required.
The benefit, once gun fit to the new body position, it serves as a check, because if I skip back to my old (bad) technique the view through the optic is compromised.
Dan
NC
Great stuff Dan thanks. My fundamentals are bad they were born of a guy just finding a way to see clearly and put a bullet on target. I'm really excited to get to work on this thanks a ton. I mean every single item you listed as a stumbling block.....heck that's me!
So I moved my glass closer to me 2 pic rail slots.....seems like a lot. Squared up much better. My collar bone is hitting the bottom 1/4th of the pad....literally almost running out of shoulder pad. Something is off if I can't get the stock any lower than that right? I took my cheek riser down as low as it would go just to make sure it wasn't holding me back.....will want to raise it up a bit.
Does this seem odd where my collar bone is contacting the pad?
Does this seem odd where my collar bone is contacting the pad?
Pretty normal for the stock to move up as you get square with the rifle more toward the center. It’s nice to have a pad that you can drop down a little.
Your physique and rifle setup will vary from others. Post a picture perhaps. But if you are square to the rifle, and pad is on the collar bone, then your rifle is very close to your centerline.
Assuming this, by all indications you should find good recoil management and improved ability to spot your shots. And make good wind corrections and follow up shots, which is the whole point. In my opinion at any rate.
Dan
NC
Assuming this, by all indications you should find good recoil management and improved ability to spot your shots. And make good wind corrections and follow up shots, which is the whole point. In my opinion at any rate.
Dan
NC
Good stuff thanks Dan thanks just making sure I'm on the right track as I explore this new setup. I think I've already found a 'sweeter' spot b/t being bladed a lot and more squared up. Shortened LOP and moved back just 1 pic rail slot.....feeling nicer and while not as midline as you are I'm a good 4-5" more centered I'd guess. Gonna have to wait til next week to put rounds down range, but liking how it feels off makeshift counter/bench. Thanks again.
Just for anyone else reading this as new material.....in 24 hours I have radically transformed my comfort and ability to square up from a bench setup perspective....and I'm a huge idiot so I think this is doable by most anyone! LOP 1/2" shorter, scope moved back 2 pic rail slots and cheek/comb height down ~ 1/4". Now the real trick will be prone which is going to require some different frames with optical center raised, but that's another problem I'll tackle down the line. Thanks to those who posted here!
Had an interesting trip to the range today at Frontline Defense here in North Carolina. I was just checking my zero prior to truing some new projectiles in a new barrel. What happened next was frustrating and insightful at the same time.
I'm a bigger guy than most and getting down on the bench I did not employ good fundamentals and mounted the butt pad more out in my shoulder pocket than normal. The four dots in the center of this target from top to bottom number 1 through 4 for illustration purposes show what I mean.
Target 1 and 2 were shot with the rifle mounted more toward the pocket. Felt bad and results were horrible. I became aware of what I was doing and put the rifle butt pad on my collarbone as Phillip Vallejo had suggested some time ago. The next Target the third down, was a little better but I was still open to the gun and not quite square, although the butt pad was in the correct spot. I made an adjustment and got more square to the rifle along with placing the butt pad on the collarbone and shot the bottom Target, then confirmed my zero on the small dot in the upper left part of the paper.
No adjustments to the turrets or scope were done at any point, all these changes were made with subtle changes in my body position.
Lord only knows what inconsistently mounting the rifle does on targets at 800 to 1200 yards, but the results were eye-popping for me personally today at 100. Doing things right is only half the battle, the other half is doing it that way all the time.
Dan
NC
I'm a bigger guy than most and getting down on the bench I did not employ good fundamentals and mounted the butt pad more out in my shoulder pocket than normal. The four dots in the center of this target from top to bottom number 1 through 4 for illustration purposes show what I mean.
Target 1 and 2 were shot with the rifle mounted more toward the pocket. Felt bad and results were horrible. I became aware of what I was doing and put the rifle butt pad on my collarbone as Phillip Vallejo had suggested some time ago. The next Target the third down, was a little better but I was still open to the gun and not quite square, although the butt pad was in the correct spot. I made an adjustment and got more square to the rifle along with placing the butt pad on the collarbone and shot the bottom Target, then confirmed my zero on the small dot in the upper left part of the paper.
No adjustments to the turrets or scope were done at any point, all these changes were made with subtle changes in my body position.
Lord only knows what inconsistently mounting the rifle does on targets at 800 to 1200 yards, but the results were eye-popping for me personally today at 100. Doing things right is only half the battle, the other half is doing it that way all the time.
Dan
NC
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Just tried this. Lots of things learned without even firing a shot. I need a cheek riser for sure. I used a pair of pajama pants and folded them so the cheek height would be right. I had to put the bag under the very end of the stock at my shoulder to raise the gun up to get the buttpad in the right place. Then I diacovered issues with the cheap walmart bipod. At its shortest its too short, at its longest its too long, and set in the middle its not dependable enough to stay there. So I have some equipment issues to deal with
Went to range yesterday with a fellow Hider....had a hoot. Felt a little odd as I expected it would, but by end of day felt great. Overall I 'see' the changes were a move towards shooting better. Thanks man
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