Rifle Sabots

[Awag1000]

A while back I was reading about a cartridge (details are fuzzy) that used a sabot and launched 22 caliber bullets out of something like a 308 or 30-06 at some stupid velocity. I know the 50BMG SLAP rounds operate off a similar way.
How come I don't hear of anything like this on the market anymore? Is it possible to make these to use in a 300 WinMag or would that be too fast? I was thinking about 3D printing some of these to play around with. What are some things I should factor in if I want to attempt to send a 22 bullet from a 300 Winchester Magnum? Powder choice? Material choice for the 3D print?

 

[spife7980]

I ran sabots through my 3006 a decade ago that were given to me. Shot so so but it was nothing more than sorta interesting.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

How come I don't hear of anything like this on the market anymore?

Sabots used in small arms centerfire cartridges with off the shelf bullets generally exhibit poor accuracy. Perhaps if the projectile was designed from the ground up with the intention of being used as a sabot accuracy could be improved but using regular rifle bullets doesn't work very well.

 

[Awag1000]

Sabots used in small arms centerfire cartridges with off the shelf bullets generally exhibit poor accuracy. Perhaps if the projectile was designed from the ground up with the intention of being used as a sabot accuracy could be improved but using regular rifle bullets doesn't work very well.

After watching that video. That's what I was begining to think. Maybe not even make it a discarding. Just make a super light weight housing that holds 22 bullets.

 

[brianf]

ive always been interested in sabots

like most have said creating a carrier that falls off with our disturbing the projectile (physically/aerodynamically) has always the the Achilles heel

if you go the road of just superlight projectiles in general to gain the speed back...its the same as using light for caliber bullets

light for caliber or heavy ".22" with a light plastic wrapper.. both have a poor BC so the upside of slinging a good BC at crazy speeds is lost

im still in though lol

 

[Awag1000]

ive always been interested in sabots

like most have said creating a carrier that falls off with our disturbing the projectile (physically/aerodynamically) has always the the Achilles heel

if you go the road of just superlight projectiles in general to gain the speed back...its the same as using light for caliber bullets

light for caliber or heavy ".22" with a light plastic wrapper.. both have a poor BC so the upside of slinging a good BC at crazy speeds is lost

im still in though lol

Thinking about picking up some 0.08" diameter tool steel rods see if I can send them zipping through some AR550 for giggles.

 

[THEIS]

After watching that video. That's what I was begining to think. Maybe not even make it a discarding. Just make a super light weight housing that holds 22 bullets.

Hi,

How are you going to account or better yet control that the 2 different alloys will then rotate at different speeds.

Your internal "Bullet" of mass compared to your external "bullet" of essentially no mass.........

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Awag1000]

Hi,

How are you going to account or better yet control that the 2 different alloys will then rotate at different speeds.

Your internal "Bullet" of mass compared to your external "bullet" of essentially no mass.........

Sincerely,
Theis

This is a good question. I suppose this will have to be figured out via trial and error.

 

[brianf]

if you actually put more than a minute into it that will be more than anyone has to date.

tons of people will chime in with idea but none of them have even sketched one out on a napkin

...ive spoken to a few of them...

 

[Awag1000]

if you actually put more than a minute into it that will be more than anyone has to date.

tons of people will chime in with idea but none of them have even sketched one out on a napkin

...ive spoken to a few of them...

I have a few ideas bouncing around in my brain. I'll throw it together in Fusion when I get home.

 

[XTR]

The ammo you are remembering was the Remington Accelerator

From back in the late 70s if I recall. By all accounts it had crap for accuracy. It came in 30-30, 30-06, and I think there was a 308

 

[DeadAss]

shot some of the Remington Accelerator's back in the 70's. Didn't shoot worth a crap but they were shot out of a Remington 760 30-06 pump action

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

None of that accelerator shit works and pretty sure @Awag1000 has better/different approaches in his head.

I am wanting to see where he goes with it and am here to help with anything I can.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Cascade Hemi]

ive always been interested in sabots

like most have said creating a carrier that falls off with our disturbing the projectile (physically/aerodynamically) has always the the Achilles heel

if you go the road of just superlight projectiles in general to gain the speed back...its the same as using light for caliber bullets

light for caliber or heavy ".22" with a light plastic wrapper.. both have a poor BC so the upside of slinging a good BC at crazy speeds is lost

im still in though lol

Shedding the sabot may be a contributing factor in the poor accuracy but it isn't the only, or even largest, reason why sabots have poor accuracy. The primary issue is the bullets slip in the sabot insert and don't spin fast enough to stabilize. Rifle barrel lands imprint into bullets as a means of providing traction to spin the bullet; sabots with off the shelf bullets have no mechanical means other than friction between the plastic sabot and the slug so inertia prevents the bullet from spinning up to the same RPM's as the sabot.

 

[spife7980]

The ammo you are remembering was the Remington Accelerator
View attachment 7601153



From back in the late 70s if I recall. By all accounts it had crap for accuracy. It came in 30-30, 30-06, and I think there was a 308

Thats what the 3006 was! It shot as well as my corelokts did, could cover the group with a fist at 100 which was fine.

 

[XTR]

There is slso a 50cal SLAP penetrator with a tungsten core. I've got one of the cores rolling around here somewhere that I picked up off of the range at Lake City.

 

[Awag1000]

Shedding the sabot may be a contributing factor in the poor accuracy but it isn't the only, or even largest, reason why sabots have poor accuracy. The primary issue is the bullets slip in the sabot insert and don't spin fast enough to stabilize. Rifle barrel lands imprint into bullets as a means of providing traction to spin the bullet; sabots with off the shelf bullets have no mechanical means other than friction between the plastic sabot and the slug so inertia prevents the bullet from spinning up to the same RPM's as the sabot.

That's what I was thinking about. So instead of shedding the sabot, I just make a plastic "housing" for the projectile to ride in. The rifle I'll be using it in has a 1:9 twist to stabilize the Warner Flatline bullets. So I can (hopefully) get away with stabilizing longer projectiles.

So as a test I just want to see if I can punch a hole through my beat to death 5/8 AR550 steel target at 100 yards as a proper send off. With that being said I have to deal with a huge number of criteria. Stability and accuracy are some of the things at the top of the list.

 

[Defender3]

shot some of the Remington Accelerator's back in the 70's. Didn't shoot worth a crap but they were shot out of a Remington 760 30-06 pump action

I knew I had some in my ammo stash.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

That's what I was thinking about. So instead of shedding the sabot, I just make a plastic "housing" for the projectile to ride in. The rifle I'll be using it in has a 1:9 twist to stabilize the Warner Flatline bullets. So I can (hopefully) get away with stabilizing longer projectiles.

So as a test I just want to see if I can punch a hole through my beat to death 5/8 AR550 steel target at 100 yards as a proper send off. With that being said I have to deal with a huge number of criteria. Stability and accuracy are some of the things at the top of the list.

What if you took a bullet and formed in vertical grooves prior to loading them into the sabot? A process similar to swaging lead bullets?

 

[brianf]

What if you took a bullet and formed in vertical grooves prior to loading them into the sabot? A process similar to swaging lead bullets?

I’m missing it
What would you want the groves to do?

more purchase for the carrier?

ahhh sabot talk...love hate relationship lol

 

[Maxduty]

I used the accelerators back in the late 80s in my 30-06. Around 100-150 they were fine, minute of groundhog. When I tried them at 400, I used the whole box and never hit. More like artillery at that range.

 

[Jumper]

Have thought about trying a saboted round for 10mm Auto. Objective would be to replicate the ballistics of the 224 Boz. With the advent of 3d printing this might be possible. Might give this a shot.

 

[Yondering]

I’m missing it
What would you want the groves to do?

more purchase for the carrier?

ahhh sabot talk...love hate relationship lol

The point would be to provide grip between the sabot and bullet, otherwise the bullet slips and doesn't stabilize.

I always figured a hexagonal bullet with a matching sabot would do the trick. Or just knurl the bullet in a lathe.
Heck for that matter, if someone 3D printed sabots with a 3/16" square hole in the center, you could just cut sections of 3/16" square steel rod for the "bullet". Crude but it'd still stabilize better than the Accelerator or EABCO stuff.

I did mess with the EABCO sabots years ago, and was able to obtain good enough accuracy for close range but they weren't much good farther out. Also, a 30/06 case full of RL7 isn't a very efficient way to accomplish a ~4,000 fps varmint load; just use a 204 Ruger or something like that.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

The point would be to provide grip between the sabot and bullet, otherwise the bullet slips and doesn't stabilize.

I always figured a hexagonal bullet with a matching sabot would do the trick. Or just knurl the bullet in a lathe.
Heck for that matter, if someone 3D printed sabots with a 3/16" square hole in the center, you could just cut sections of 3/16" square steel rod for the "bullet". Crude but it'd still stabilize better than the Accelerator or EABCO stuff.

I did mess with the EABCO sabots years ago, and was able to obtain good enough accuracy for close range but they weren't much good farther out. Also, a 30/06 case full of RL7 isn't a very efficient way to accomplish a ~4,000 fps varmint load; just use a 204 Ruger or something like that.

I was mainly brainstorming but the idea I have is grooves in the bullet and the mirror image formed into the sabot to create a mechanical lock. I'm not sure that would be enough though since the bullet will be accelerated up with like 50 G's.

 

[Yondering]

I was mainly brainstorming but the idea I have is grooves in the bullet and the mirror image formed into the sabot to create a mechanical lock. I'm not sure that would be enough though since the bullet will be accelerated up with like 50 G's.

Yup. Hence the hexagonal (or square, triangular, etc) bullet and matching sabot. IMO hexagonal would probably be the best balance if the sabot also had 6 petals.

 

[canezach]

I did mess with the EABCO sabots years ago, and was able to obtain good enough accuracy for close range but they weren't much good farther out. Also, a 30/06 case full of RL7 isn't a very efficient way to accomplish a ~4,000 fps varmint load; just use a 204 Ruger or something like that.

And this is ultimately where my curiosity in sabot rounds dies. If the purpose were to send a small caliber bullet at warp speed, we can wildcat just about anything if something like the 204 Ruger or 22 Creedmoor doesn't give you enough velocity and do so with far more consistent accuracy beyond sabot ranges. If the purpose is to do something that hasn't been done or do something better, then by all means, proceed

 

[Texasflyer]

I was mainly brainstorming but the idea I have is grooves in the bullet and the mirror image formed into the sabot to create a mechanical lock. I'm not sure that would be enough though since the bullet will be accelerated up with like 50 G's.

Probably better to use like a barnes tsx type bulled with grooves that go around the bullet, and are available to load, then just make your sabot the reverse with a tiny bevel and they will mechanically lock up until they leave the barrel. Also are they using delrin or just plain ole plastic or what were the originals made from?.... pretty interesting thread

 

[Texasflyer]

Actually that probably sucks for acuracy. No telling which way the sabot will let go.

 

[Awag1000]

And this is ultimately where my curiosity in sabot rounds dies. If the purpose were to send a small caliber bullet at warp speed, we can wildcat just about anything if something like the 204 Ruger or 22 Creedmoor doesn't give you enough velocity and do so with far more consistent accuracy beyond sabot ranges. If the purpose is to do something that hasn't been done or do something better, then by all means, proceed

Can't really send a hardened steel rods down the bore without causing damage.

 

[brianf]

For everyone thanking groves and locks the carrier has to separate flawlessly.

It has to separate exactly the same every time

The problem isn’t wrapping a plastic finger around a bullet that’s easy, it’s getting it out of the way without disturbing the bullet.

 

[Awag1000]

For everyone thanking groves and locks the carrier has to separate flawlessly.

It has to separate exactly the same every time

The problem isn’t wrapping a plastic finger around a bullet that’s easy, it’s getting it out of the way without disturbing the bullet.

This is one of the biggest problems that I'm going to have to deal with. When designing a sabot. Making it break away evenly every single time one of these is fired.

 

[brianf]

I think part of the problem is a center fire cartridge is just too small in some respects.

everything has to be “that” much more perfect.

still thinking though lol

 

[Awag1000]

I think part of the problem is a center fire cartridge is just too small in some respects.

everything has to be “that” much more perfect.

still thinking though lol

I keep wanting to copy the sabot they use for those uranium armor piercing rounds for the Abrams Tank. However the Abrams is a smoothbore. The dynamic changes drastically once you introduce rifling.

 

[Texasflyer]

This is one of the biggest problems that I'm going to have to deal with. When designing a sabot. Making it break away evenly every single time one of these .

Yeah, if you can 3d print it, i was thinking interlocking pairs of the fingers, make em where the 6 or 8 fingers are just pairs that fly away. Probably the best shot at not disturbing the bullet.

 

[brianf]

I keep wanting to copy the sabot they use for those uranium armor piercing rounds for the Abrams Tank. However the Abrams is a smoothbore. The dynamic changes drastically once you introduce rifling.

Was texting someone on the side yesterday and the M1 does have some rifling.
It’s not just a smooth pipe inside.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Smoothbore would in theory be the easiest route but even the fin stabilized sabot rounds have a slight twist in barrel.

Something like a 20 twist is the most common.

Some have put the "twist" on the leading edge of bullet to inact assist the spin of the fin stabilized sabots.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Defender3]

Was texting someone on the side yesterday and the M1 does have some rifling.
It’s not just a smooth pipe inside.

The in service (A1 and A2) Abrams have a 120mm smooth bore. The sabot projectile is traveling at 4,800+ FPS and is fin stabilized.

 

[whatmeworry_45]

Setting aside problems with projo/sabot slip already mentioned, what about twist rate? Who is running around with a 30 cal 1:7 or 1:8 barrel to spin higher BC 224 or 6mm bulletss? Will anything heavier than the usual varmint bullets even stabilize?

Maybe rolling a double or triple cannelure for a 3D printed sabot to lock into might make a difference.

Just thinking out loud. Be neat if I had the time to play with this, but probably just end up reinventing the wheel.

 

[brianf]

The in service (A1 and A2) Abrams have a 120mm smooth bore. The sabot projectile is traveling at 4,800+ FPS and is fin stabilized.

So the xm256 is truly smooth bore/pipe no rifling.
Thanks

 

[Cascade Hemi]

For everyone thanking groves and locks the carrier has to separate flawlessly.

It has to separate exactly the same every time

The problem isn’t wrapping a plastic finger around a bullet that’s easy, it’s getting it out of the way without disturbing the bullet.

True. I think objectively you can't use any off the shelf components are firearm parts; this would have to be a ground up project for the ammunition and rifle.

 

[Defender3]

So the xm256 is truly smooth bore/pipe no rifling.
Thanks

The M256 is the Rheinmetall gun / cannon and is absolutely a smoothbore. BTW, I'm sitting next to a retired O-10 tanker who is feeding me answers. To reiterate, the 120mm sabot round is moving very fast and is fin stabilized, unlike a rifle round.

 

[Powder_Burns]

Ladies and gentlemen, I present the shotgun shell.

About as good as it gets for a saboted payload from small arms I’m afraid.

 

[AZgeek]

If delivery will be out of a traditional rifled barrel, maybe make a super thin jacket/lead delivery envelope designed to explode or rip away. You could base your design on the exploding 7mm Rem Mag ELD-M's?

 

[brianf]

The M256 is the Rheinmetall gun / cannon and is absolutely a smoothbore. BTW, I'm sitting next to a retired O-10 tanker who is feeding me answers. To reiterate, the 120mm sabot round is moving very fast and is fin stabilized, unlike a rifle round.

don’t worry someone will come along and tell you he’s wrong lol

 

[XTR]

The in service (A1 and A2) Abrams have a 120mm smooth bore. The sabot projectile is traveling at 4,800+ FPS and is fin stabilized.

Back in the early 90s the M1 main gun was a 105 rifled gun. Right about the time of the first desert fight we re-tubed the inventory to the 120 smooth bore. Both guns are a fin stabilized projectile. I was told back Then that the 105 was more accurate than the 120, for what ever that’s worth. It was one conversation.

The APG guys spend/spent a whole lot of time figuring out how to make those darts fly straight.

 

[Strykervet]

Uh, pretty sure this has already been addressed. If I'm not mistaken the current BMG SLAP rounds have a tungsten rod and the sabot seals and engages the rifling through an aluminum base that's keyed to the tungsten projectile in order to ensure they all spin together. Then the sabot separates downrange.

I've seen fin stabilized rifle ammo before too, even one that separated into three separate darts and one 12ga. that showed promise at (1km!?). So army has tried it all.

How about civilian Raufoss? Only has .98grams of RDX ea. which makes them legal to own without a license IIRC.

I have to make do with bulk pulled API and /T though so what do I know... Wouldn't mind a few belts of SLAP though.

 

[brianf]

Problem is SLAP rounds aren’t accurate “enough”

 

[jolofree]

The sabots I use in my .50cal muzzle loader seem to work pretty well, little lighter bullet, higher velocity and good accuracy.
Is the smokeless stuff just too much pressure & velocity to quick to work very well?

 

[Yondering]

The sabots I use in my .50cal muzzle loader seem to work pretty well, little lighter bullet, higher velocity and good accuracy.
Is the smokeless stuff just too much pressure & velocity to quick to work very well?

I was going to bring up muzzle loader sabots; they can work very well, but are generally dealing with much slower twist as well as slower acceleration down the bore. Both of those things are key; high pressure smokeless powder loads with fast twists require much more grip between the sabot and bullet. The twist & sabot/bullet grip are a much bigger issue (at least with the EABCO sabots) than even sabot separation IMO - uneven separation should result in bullet instability as soon as the sabot separates but that's not what I've observed; accuracy was reasonable up close and bullets impacted head on, but deteriorated farther out just like when twist rate is too slow with conventional bullets.

Also as a side note I've tried the muzzle loader 45 cal sabots in slow twist 45 Colt barrels. It didn't work, primarily because even with very low pressure smokeless loads the sabots couldn't handle the pressure and blew out their center like a donut, pushing the bullet out before the sabot. I did not try them with blackpowder loads though; that should work in theory but I never liked the cleaning chore to get that corrosive mess off my guns.