on a remington 308 milspec,the twist is 1 in 11.25.now shooting a heavier and longer bullet, wouldnt a 1 in 10 or 1 in 9 be better?a faster spin? whats the thinking towards this twist? (1 in 11.25)
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rifling
- Thread starter kluxman45
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Re: rifling
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2075361&page=1
Start there, then continue to read and use the search function. There are multiple threads on here discussing your questions.
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2075361&page=1
Start there, then continue to read and use the search function. There are multiple threads on here discussing your questions.
Re: rifling
It is impossible to answer your question intelligently without knowing the weight of the bullet you are shooting and whether it is of a lead core/copper jacket bullet construction or homogeneous copper or gilding metal construction.
It is impossible to answer your question intelligently without knowing the weight of the bullet you are shooting and whether it is of a lead core/copper jacket bullet construction or homogeneous copper or gilding metal construction.
Re: rifling
its not a rocket being built,come on.just a question.why a slower twist for a heavier longer bullet?
its not a rocket being built,come on.just a question.why a slower twist for a heavier longer bullet?
Re: rifling
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">its not a rocket being built,come on.just a question.why a slower twist for a heavier longer bullet? </div></div>
Steve,
I think they are trying to get you to use the search feature here on the site. This question has been asked and answered a lot. The length of the bullet determines the twist needed. Normally a heavier bullet translates into a longer bullet, until you get in things like the Barnes X and other solid copper bullets. As for your statement above a heavier bullet requires a faster not slower twist. Your 1 in 11.25 should handle up to 190's depending on what velocity you can get.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">its not a rocket being built,come on.just a question.why a slower twist for a heavier longer bullet? </div></div>
Steve,
I think they are trying to get you to use the search feature here on the site. This question has been asked and answered a lot. The length of the bullet determines the twist needed. Normally a heavier bullet translates into a longer bullet, until you get in things like the Barnes X and other solid copper bullets. As for your statement above a heavier bullet requires a faster not slower twist. Your 1 in 11.25 should handle up to 190's depending on what velocity you can get.
Re: rifling
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">its not a rocket being built,come on.just a question.why a slower twist for a heavier longer bullet? </div></div>
It's a FASTER twist for a longer bullet.
1 in 11 means one revolution of the bullet for every 11 inches of barrel length.
1 in 7 means one revolution of the bullet for every 7 inches of barrel length.
The second gives the bullet (assuming equal linear velocity) a faster rotational velocity.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">its not a rocket being built,come on.just a question.why a slower twist for a heavier longer bullet? </div></div>
It's a FASTER twist for a longer bullet.
1 in 11 means one revolution of the bullet for every 11 inches of barrel length.
1 in 7 means one revolution of the bullet for every 7 inches of barrel length.
The second gives the bullet (assuming equal linear velocity) a faster rotational velocity.
Re: rifling
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">its not a rocket being built,come on.</div></div>
rocket? no. missle? yes!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">its not a rocket being built,come on.</div></div>
rocket? no. missle? yes!
Re: rifling
thanks guys,but i knew all thatlol.i got stumped on remingtons 11.25 twist,saying to my self how can a slower twist then a 1 in 10 shoot a 175 so good,a 1 in 10 dont really do that so good either.seems like my older rem liked the 168s and it was a 1 in 10.even the 150s flew all over the place.i know the shorter faster bullets dont seem to need a fast twist to keep it stabilized at a high velocity.like some rifles are 1 in 14 ect.so when i ask people at gun shops they end up knowing less then me.id love to learn from you guys.i can see from other posts that you guys on here are a book full of info.better then any one around ive ever talked to,and ive been around a lot of gun ranges and shows ect.just so ya know i really appreciate this.but like i read,i know a long heavy hornady needs a faster twist to keep stabilized.just a thought,what if a rifle,say 24 inch barrel,308,had a 1 in 9.5 or so and shooting a 175 or 180?to fast? thank you guys for your time with me
thanks guys,but i knew all thatlol.i got stumped on remingtons 11.25 twist,saying to my self how can a slower twist then a 1 in 10 shoot a 175 so good,a 1 in 10 dont really do that so good either.seems like my older rem liked the 168s and it was a 1 in 10.even the 150s flew all over the place.i know the shorter faster bullets dont seem to need a fast twist to keep it stabilized at a high velocity.like some rifles are 1 in 14 ect.so when i ask people at gun shops they end up knowing less then me.id love to learn from you guys.i can see from other posts that you guys on here are a book full of info.better then any one around ive ever talked to,and ive been around a lot of gun ranges and shows ect.just so ya know i really appreciate this.but like i read,i know a long heavy hornady needs a faster twist to keep stabilized.just a thought,what if a rifle,say 24 inch barrel,308,had a 1 in 9.5 or so and shooting a 175 or 180?to fast? thank you guys for your time with me
Re: rifling
Rifling rate has little to do with accuracy so long as it is fast enough to stabilize the bullet. At that point there are many other factors that affect accuracy.
I don't know who told you that 1 in 11.25 is too slow to shoot 175, when my Howa with a 1 in 12 barrel will routinely smack IDPA steel targets at 900 yards, and chew out the 600 yrd NRA target X ring with 175s.
Rifling rate has little to do with accuracy so long as it is fast enough to stabilize the bullet. At that point there are many other factors that affect accuracy.
I don't know who told you that 1 in 11.25 is too slow to shoot 175, when my Howa with a 1 in 12 barrel will routinely smack IDPA steel targets at 900 yards, and chew out the 600 yrd NRA target X ring with 175s.
Re: rifling
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: proneshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rifling rate has little to do with accuracy so long as it is fast enough to stabilize the bullet. At that point there are many other factors that affect accuracy.
I don't know who told you that 1 in 11.25 is too slow to shoot 175, when my Howa with a 1 in 12 barrel will routinely smack IDPA steel targets at 900 yards, and chew out the 600 yrd NRA target X ring with 175s. </div></div> i know they ll hit out there that far,but im kinda talking about 3 shot inside of a dime.will your 1 in 12 do that at 100 yrds or so?I think thats what took the thunder away from the 6mm back in the day and everyone took to the 243 cause it had a 1 in 10. 6mm had a 1 in 12 and wouldnt group good.so now the 6 mm are 1 in 10 even maybe 9 now,cant remember.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: proneshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rifling rate has little to do with accuracy so long as it is fast enough to stabilize the bullet. At that point there are many other factors that affect accuracy.
I don't know who told you that 1 in 11.25 is too slow to shoot 175, when my Howa with a 1 in 12 barrel will routinely smack IDPA steel targets at 900 yards, and chew out the 600 yrd NRA target X ring with 175s. </div></div> i know they ll hit out there that far,but im kinda talking about 3 shot inside of a dime.will your 1 in 12 do that at 100 yrds or so?I think thats what took the thunder away from the 6mm back in the day and everyone took to the 243 cause it had a 1 in 10. 6mm had a 1 in 12 and wouldnt group good.so now the 6 mm are 1 in 10 even maybe 9 now,cant remember.
Re: rifling
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve56</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: proneshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rifling rate has little to do with accuracy so long as it is fast enough to stabilize the bullet. At that point there are many other factors that affect accuracy.
I don't know who told you that 1 in 11.25 is too slow to shoot 175, when my Howa with a 1 in 12 barrel will routinely smack IDPA steel targets at 900 yards, and chew out the 600 yrd NRA target X ring with 175s. </div></div> i know they ll hit out there that far,but im kinda talking about 3 shot inside of a dime.will your 1 in 12 do that at 100 yrds or so?I think thats what took the thunder away from the 6mm back in the day and everyone took to the 243 cause it had a 1 in 10. 6mm had a 1 in 12 and wouldnt group good.so now the 6 mm are 1 in 10 even maybe 9 now,cant remember. </div></div>i just figured 1 in 11.25 in a 308 milspec wasnt fast enough to stabalize a long and heavy bullet.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve56</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: proneshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Rifling rate has little to do with accuracy so long as it is fast enough to stabilize the bullet. At that point there are many other factors that affect accuracy.
I don't know who told you that 1 in 11.25 is too slow to shoot 175, when my Howa with a 1 in 12 barrel will routinely smack IDPA steel targets at 900 yards, and chew out the 600 yrd NRA target X ring with 175s. </div></div> i know they ll hit out there that far,but im kinda talking about 3 shot inside of a dime.will your 1 in 12 do that at 100 yrds or so?I think thats what took the thunder away from the 6mm back in the day and everyone took to the 243 cause it had a 1 in 10. 6mm had a 1 in 12 and wouldnt group good.so now the 6 mm are 1 in 10 even maybe 9 now,cant remember. </div></div>i just figured 1 in 11.25 in a 308 milspec wasnt fast enough to stabalize a long and heavy bullet.
Re: rifling
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i know they ll hit out there that far,but im kinda talking about 3 shot inside of a dime.will your 1 in 12 do that at 100 yrds or so?I think thats what took the thunder away from the 6mm back in the day and everyone took to the 243 cause it had a 1 in 10. 6mm had a 1 in 12 and wouldnt group good.so now the 6 mm are 1 in 10 even maybe 9 now,cant remember. </div></div>
What I am saying is that once rifling rate is fast enough to stabilize a bullet in flight, there are MANY other factors that come into play when it comes to consistent accuracy and precision.
Load development, barrel harmonics, barrel steel stresses, bedding quality, chamber dimensional consistency, throat dimensions, throat surface roughness, dimensional consistency of land and grooves along the length of the bore, crown uniformity all around, etc, etc, etc, ALL have a hell of a lot more to do with accuracy than just how fast the rifling is.
This isn't as simple as finding the magic twist rate that will make all loads "shoot good".
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i know they ll hit out there that far,but im kinda talking about 3 shot inside of a dime.will your 1 in 12 do that at 100 yrds or so?I think thats what took the thunder away from the 6mm back in the day and everyone took to the 243 cause it had a 1 in 10. 6mm had a 1 in 12 and wouldnt group good.so now the 6 mm are 1 in 10 even maybe 9 now,cant remember. </div></div>
What I am saying is that once rifling rate is fast enough to stabilize a bullet in flight, there are MANY other factors that come into play when it comes to consistent accuracy and precision.
Load development, barrel harmonics, barrel steel stresses, bedding quality, chamber dimensional consistency, throat dimensions, throat surface roughness, dimensional consistency of land and grooves along the length of the bore, crown uniformity all around, etc, etc, etc, ALL have a hell of a lot more to do with accuracy than just how fast the rifling is.
This isn't as simple as finding the magic twist rate that will make all loads "shoot good".
Re: rifling
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: proneshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i know they ll hit out there that far,but im kinda talking about 3 shot inside of a dime.will your 1 in 12 do that at 100 yrds or so?I think thats what took the thunder away from the 6mm back in the day and everyone took to the 243 cause it had a 1 in 10. 6mm had a 1 in 12 and wouldnt group good.so now the 6 mm are 1 in 10 even maybe 9 now,cant remember. </div></div>
What I am saying is that once rifling rate is fast enough to stabilize a bullet in flight, there are MANY other factors that come into play when it comes to consistent accuracy and precision.
Load development, barrel harmonics, barrel steel stresses, bedding quality, chamber dimensional consistency, throat dimensions, throat surface roughness, dimensional consistency of land and grooves along the length of the bore, crown uniformity all around, etc, etc, etc, ALL have a hell of a lot more to do with accuracy than just how fast the rifling is.
This isn't as simple as finding the magic twist rate that will make all loads "shoot good". </div></div> dam,all i wanted,was the bullet to use that everybody else uses out of there milspec 308.you know,it shoots bullet hole in bullet hole right out of the box?i figured 175 was the magic bullet every one else was useing on here to do this,i hear it all the time on here.I shot this,i shot that, with this rifle right out of box.well i bought a new milspec in 308.and a box of 175s by black hills, which was match 175s.shot it off a lead sled.three shots over a 1"at 100 yrds. whens this gun gonna shoot hole in hole lol?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: proneshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i know they ll hit out there that far,but im kinda talking about 3 shot inside of a dime.will your 1 in 12 do that at 100 yrds or so?I think thats what took the thunder away from the 6mm back in the day and everyone took to the 243 cause it had a 1 in 10. 6mm had a 1 in 12 and wouldnt group good.so now the 6 mm are 1 in 10 even maybe 9 now,cant remember. </div></div>
What I am saying is that once rifling rate is fast enough to stabilize a bullet in flight, there are MANY other factors that come into play when it comes to consistent accuracy and precision.
Load development, barrel harmonics, barrel steel stresses, bedding quality, chamber dimensional consistency, throat dimensions, throat surface roughness, dimensional consistency of land and grooves along the length of the bore, crown uniformity all around, etc, etc, etc, ALL have a hell of a lot more to do with accuracy than just how fast the rifling is.
This isn't as simple as finding the magic twist rate that will make all loads "shoot good". </div></div> dam,all i wanted,was the bullet to use that everybody else uses out of there milspec 308.you know,it shoots bullet hole in bullet hole right out of the box?i figured 175 was the magic bullet every one else was useing on here to do this,i hear it all the time on here.I shot this,i shot that, with this rifle right out of box.well i bought a new milspec in 308.and a box of 175s by black hills, which was match 175s.shot it off a lead sled.three shots over a 1"at 100 yrds. whens this gun gonna shoot hole in hole lol?
Re: rifling
losethe sled?once its setin there and the cross hairs are put back on target everytime,how can you go wrong?the bullets are basiclyout of the same batch,the gun isnt moveing,you took over half of human era away,justtouch the trigger.put gun back where it was and do that again.it ll either cut bullet holes or be open to where its un satisfactory.then try a different lot of ammo. if them dont group, find one that will. or you found your good reload.what do you think is wrong with getting the scope sighted in with a sled?we all know that the rifle didnt move when it went off.
losethe sled?once its setin there and the cross hairs are put back on target everytime,how can you go wrong?the bullets are basiclyout of the same batch,the gun isnt moveing,you took over half of human era away,justtouch the trigger.put gun back where it was and do that again.it ll either cut bullet holes or be open to where its un satisfactory.then try a different lot of ammo. if them dont group, find one that will. or you found your good reload.what do you think is wrong with getting the scope sighted in with a sled?we all know that the rifle didnt move when it went off.
Re: rifling
Generally, there are a number of advantages to using the slowest twist that will stabilize the weight/length of bullet you will be using. There is little benefit to ordering a 1-10 twist if a 1-12 twist will stabilize the bullet you want to shoot. Usually, faster twist rates wear out a bit faster than slower twists. I think Remington went with the 1-11.25 because it is slower than a 1-10, and will adequately stabilize the bullets that the military uses in the 7.62x51 loadings (147,162,173).
Generally, there are a number of advantages to using the slowest twist that will stabilize the weight/length of bullet you will be using. There is little benefit to ordering a 1-10 twist if a 1-12 twist will stabilize the bullet you want to shoot. Usually, faster twist rates wear out a bit faster than slower twists. I think Remington went with the 1-11.25 because it is slower than a 1-10, and will adequately stabilize the bullets that the military uses in the 7.62x51 loadings (147,162,173).
Re: rifling
remember when thatriflegoes off on the sled,it hasnt moved a fraction of a mm.can you say that on a sand bag with a squeeze bag under the stock?dont think so,ive tried it,the sled was always closer.
remember when thatriflegoes off on the sled,it hasnt moved a fraction of a mm.can you say that on a sand bag with a squeeze bag under the stock?dont think so,ive tried it,the sled was always closer.
Re: rifling
Sir, what you're missing that people are trying to gently hint at, is that there is a high probability from what you have written that you don't know what the heck you are doing and can't shoot worth a damn.
I have three rifles with 1 in 12 barrels which will group 5 shots of 175 grain Sierra Matchkings around a half inch off a bipod at 100 yards.
Now, there are "milspec rifles" which won't group in an inch at 100 yards - you haven't provided much information. But there is pretty much <span style="font-weight: bold">no chance</span> that the problem is the twist rate of the barrel.
Sir, what you're missing that people are trying to gently hint at, is that there is a high probability from what you have written that you don't know what the heck you are doing and can't shoot worth a damn.
I have three rifles with 1 in 12 barrels which will group 5 shots of 175 grain Sierra Matchkings around a half inch off a bipod at 100 yards.
Now, there are "milspec rifles" which won't group in an inch at 100 yards - you haven't provided much information. But there is pretty much <span style="font-weight: bold">no chance</span> that the problem is the twist rate of the barrel.
Re: rifling
oh im sure its the bullets since i only used half a box of bh match breaking it in.what i was trying to tell some of you guys with no common sence is that some are saying right out of box its shooting 1/4 inch groups off a rest at 100 yrds.so i bought one.dam your gonna half to show me.i shot three times and it triangled.first shot 1 oclock 1 moa away second 11 oclock 1 moa third center dead center.measures about 1 and a quarter spread.
maybe its remingtons throat length.well anyways we ll trysome different brands of bullets before reloading and setting bullets out to rifleings.
oh im sure its the bullets since i only used half a box of bh match breaking it in.what i was trying to tell some of you guys with no common sence is that some are saying right out of box its shooting 1/4 inch groups off a rest at 100 yrds.so i bought one.dam your gonna half to show me.i shot three times and it triangled.first shot 1 oclock 1 moa away second 11 oclock 1 moa third center dead center.measures about 1 and a quarter spread.
maybe its remingtons throat length.well anyways we ll trysome different brands of bullets before reloading and setting bullets out to rifleings.
Re: rifling
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">oh im sure its the bullets since i only used half a box of bh match breaking it in.what i was trying to tell some of you guys with no common sence is that some are saying right out of box its shooting 1/4 inch groups off a rest at 100 yrds.so i bought one.dam your gonna half to show me.i shot three times and it triangled.first shot 1 oclock 1 moa away second 11 oclock 1 moa third center dead center.measures about 1 and a quarter spread. maybe its remingtons throat length.well anyways we ll trysome different brands of bullets before reloading and setting bullets out to rifleings.</div></div>
If you're going to hang out on this web site, it would be useful for you to do two things.
(1) Finish high school to learn to spell, capitalize, and punctuate.
(2) Learn to shoot.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">oh im sure its the bullets since i only used half a box of bh match breaking it in.what i was trying to tell some of you guys with no common sence is that some are saying right out of box its shooting 1/4 inch groups off a rest at 100 yrds.so i bought one.dam your gonna half to show me.i shot three times and it triangled.first shot 1 oclock 1 moa away second 11 oclock 1 moa third center dead center.measures about 1 and a quarter spread. maybe its remingtons throat length.well anyways we ll trysome different brands of bullets before reloading and setting bullets out to rifleings.</div></div>
If you're going to hang out on this web site, it would be useful for you to do two things.
(1) Finish high school to learn to spell, capitalize, and punctuate.
(2) Learn to shoot.
Re: rifling
I'm going to give it a try. My Rem 700p won't shoot 175's. Don't know why and don't care. It drives tacks with 190's and 168's off the shelf. Too many variables, so try some different stuff and see what works. And take some classes if you can. Good luck.
I'm going to give it a try. My Rem 700p won't shoot 175's. Don't know why and don't care. It drives tacks with 190's and 168's off the shelf. Too many variables, so try some different stuff and see what works. And take some classes if you can. Good luck.
Re: rifling
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think im getting the message across!</div></div>
That message being you believe everything you read on the internet, you can't write legibly or you can't shoot?
You are looking like a troll with your posts and I don't see you lasting on this site for very much longer.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think im getting the message across!</div></div>
That message being you believe everything you read on the internet, you can't write legibly or you can't shoot?
You are looking like a troll with your posts and I don't see you lasting on this site for very much longer.
Re: rifling
yah see......this is perzackly the sort of shit that makes me want to shoot kneecaps.
dude get a fucking clue and start with completeing your fucking profile and sit on your fucking hands
yah see......this is perzackly the sort of shit that makes me want to shoot kneecaps.
dude get a fucking clue and start with completeing your fucking profile and sit on your fucking hands
Re: rifling
Gentlemen..., some folks are just too smart to be helped.
On a positive note, with his ever-increasing post count, he will soon be able to sell that inferior rifle in the classifieds.
Gentlemen..., some folks are just too smart to be helped.
On a positive note, with his ever-increasing post count, he will soon be able to sell that inferior rifle in the classifieds.
Re: rifling
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DMann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gentlemen..., some folks are just too smart to be helped.
On a positive note, with his ever-increasing post count, he will soon be able to sell that inferior rifle in the classifieds. </div></div>I see most of ya are from the south lol.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DMann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gentlemen..., some folks are just too smart to be helped.
On a positive note, with his ever-increasing post count, he will soon be able to sell that inferior rifle in the classifieds. </div></div>I see most of ya are from the south lol.
Re: rifling
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">why?cant you read? </div></div>
Steve, you are not going to learn, not going to get any good by being an arrogant prick. If you want to remain stupid and not be able to shoot for shit then continue.
or
pull your head in and learn something.
Either way it's your problem. You deal with it.
It's a real pity you have blown off people who have a fair idea what they are talking about due to your ignorant behaviour. It might be that you need to stick to one of the lower level forums to find the correct home.
FYI, there is no hard and fast point where one projectile will not be accurate so the best way is to test. I have a .223 1 in 9 shooting 75's and 80's which it "cannot" do.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steve56</div><div class="ubbcode-body">why?cant you read? </div></div>
Steve, you are not going to learn, not going to get any good by being an arrogant prick. If you want to remain stupid and not be able to shoot for shit then continue.
or
pull your head in and learn something.
Either way it's your problem. You deal with it.
It's a real pity you have blown off people who have a fair idea what they are talking about due to your ignorant behaviour. It might be that you need to stick to one of the lower level forums to find the correct home.
FYI, there is no hard and fast point where one projectile will not be accurate so the best way is to test. I have a .223 1 in 9 shooting 75's and 80's which it "cannot" do.
Re: rifling
We should have a little bomb icon for threads where the poster self-destructs. They're interesting to read, for completely different reasons...
We should have a little bomb icon for threads where the poster self-destructs. They're interesting to read, for completely different reasons...
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