Rimfire myth busting and cold hard data

[Lesloan]

I worded it badly.. What about the rate of rounds which are relocated into your single six?

Chronograph.. I hate it. No matter what ammo I shoot the ES is too big.
SK Biathlon seems pretty good with 11fps SD and 50fps ES with almost 50 samples. But in close ranges velocity does not correlate with group size.

I have not chronoed Tenex much at all yet but it is not suited for training at $25 a box so it has mainly been benchmark ammo.
I have to test it too, though.

Goodshooters has Tenex by the box for $16.80

I worded it badly.. What about the rate of rounds which are relocated into your single six?

Chronograph.. I hate it. No matter what ammo I shoot the ES is too big.
SK Biathlon seems pretty good with 11fps SD and 50fps ES with almost 50 samples. But in close ranges velocity does not correlate with group size.

I have not chronoed Tenex much at all yet but it is not suited for training at $25 a box so it has mainly been benchmark ammo.
I have to test it too, though.

If it helps, https://goodshootinginc.com/ has Tenex for $16.80 by the box, a little less by the case.

 

[steve123]

No offence intended to anybody but by the time one goes to all this amount of work, trips to the range, ammo costs, etc, that person could be reloading centerfire with reduced loads.

So I accept 22rf in 2 catagories,
#1 is for plinking with cheap rifles, or general hunting, in which case almost any ammo will suffice.
#2 is for matches which includes spending the $, getting your rifle/s tested at Lapua or Eley, and buying a bunch of whatever ammo you can afford. It's quick and that lot# is usually in stock at various dealers for order right then and there, or you can buy directly from the test facility.
Ever done your own ammo testing only to find out that most accurate lot# of ammo is sold out or in small supply??!!

Breaking it down, unless shooting top level 22rf Benchrest, or Olympic shooting, most don't need .1" more accuracy, or can take advantage of it anyway due to wind, not seeing exactly where you hit on paper, or on shot up steel, or miss's behind the targets.

$25 a box rimfire ammo sucks compared to carefully put together centerfire reloads, especially past 100Y or so.

Almost unbelievable how superior my 20-221AI with a reduced load is at 2330 fps, just sayin, as I have before in rimfire threads. ETA - That 20-221AI makes me happy when my expensive rimfire falls short, pun intended. My last group at 50Y was in the high 0's. Miss's are a matter of not getting wind right because the vertical is so small at extended distances.

 

[Kisssofdeath]

steve123, no offence taken at all by me. As a whole we are in solidarity as firearms enthusiast.

I just want to point out that for some people there is this thing called "fun". Fun in seeing what shooter/ammo is capable of accuracy wise, fun in comparing ammo velocity from different types to different barrel lengths and fun from other creative statistical standpoints.

Anything we do in our spare time should be fun, otherwise it's called work. Truly, no offense intended to anyone either. ?

 

[justin amateur]

NM, up front, I lack the talent necessary to shoot competitively.
I'm a technician, capable of the mechanics but unable to do so
at the level needed to compete successfully.
All my shooting with rimfire is done to self educate.
I buy and try every brand of rimfire ammo I can get my hands on
in order to determine what works and what is wishful thinking.

None of the rimfire ammo I've purchased
has been good enough for use in competition.
I order from on line retailers a few bricks at a time.
Use it up, then try something else.

My thought is the best ammunition never gets to the retail market.
The "magic" stuff goes directly to the teams/shooters sponsored by that brand.
Makes for great advertising when they win, improves sales.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

No offence intended to anybody but by the time one goes to all this amount of work, trips to the range, ammo costs, etc, that person could be reloading centerfire with reduced loads.

So I accept 22rf in 2 catagories,
#1 is for plinking with cheap rifles, or general hunting, in which case almost any ammo will suffice.
#2 is for matches which includes spending the $, getting your rifle/s tested at Lapua or Eley, and buying a bunch of whatever ammo you can afford. It's quick and that lot# is usually in stock at various dealers for order right then and there, or you can buy directly from the test facility.
Ever done your own ammo testing only to find out that most accurate lot# of ammo is sold out or in small supply??!!

Breaking it down, unless shooting top level 22rf Benchrest, or Olympic shooting, most don't need .1" more accuracy, or can take advantage of it anyway due to wind, not seeing exactly where you hit on paper, or on shot up steel, or miss's behind the targets.

$25 a box rimfire ammo sucks compared to carefully put together centerfire reloads, especially past 100Y or so.

Almost unbelievable how superior my 20-221AI with a reduced load is at 2330 fps, just sayin, as I have before in rimfire threads. It makes me happy when my expensive rimfire falls short, pun intended.

I think people just enjoy .22lr. One of the few downsides is that reliable, repeatable ammo is difficult to figure out. It's not as simple as buying "good" ammo. I'll be honest, I'm at a point of frustration due to the almost illogical aspect of .22lr "accuracy". But I'll persevere.

At the end of all this, we'll have figured most of this out though. There won't be many "myths" left as we, as a group of enthusiasts, will figure it out.

And I would add option #3. Just buy a Voodoo and shoot Center X. Up front a bit pricey but in the long run it will be the cheapest route.

Voodoo is our big leap forward in .22lr. It's going to help narrow down the inconsistencies. That and the HUGE popularity of .22lr PRS matches. The bar has been already been raised. Should be fun. And I would imagine the economics of manufacturing will decrease the cost of high end .22lr ammo sooner than later. It's gonna be a good time to shoot .22lr for awhile.

 

[Near miss]

NM, up front, I lack the talent necessary to shoot competitively.
I'm a technician, capable of the mechanics but unable to do so
at the level needed to compete successfully.
All my shooting with rimfire is done to self educate.
I buy and try every brand of rimfire ammo I can get my hands on
in order to determine what works and what is wishful thinking.

None of the rimfire ammo I've purchased
has been good enough for use in competition.
I order from on line retailers a few bricks at a time.
Use it up, then try something else.

My thought is the best ammunition never gets to the retail market.
The "magic" stuff goes directly to the teams/shooters sponsored by that brand.
Makes for great advertising when they win, improves sales.

Manufacturers indeed do close work with the competitioners. I will ask if I can swap a box when I see a local competitioner the next time and test it. And ask him how big his lot testing groups were.

I would estimate that the chain goes from factory to Olympists to national shooters to invidual lot testing at facilities to everyone else.


@steve123 We are not crazy and know our way of doing things is not the best. But maximizing 22LR performance is a challenge that will take all the efforts you give to it. And for some reason I find it amusing.

Maybe because the cartridge itself is so tiny and of old design. Just look at how small it is!

@Lesloan Ordering ammo from outside of the country is not very complicated but I rather not do it. Shipping fees etc.
The $25 is converted from euros, I live in Europe.

@Jefe's Dope Is Vudoo in some way inherently more accurate than other 22LR guns? I understand their feeding is innovative but have not heard of other accuracy boosting features.

 

[steve123]

I think people just enjoy .22lr. One of the few downsides is that reliable, repeatable ammo is difficult to figure out. It's not as simple as buying "good" ammo. I'll be honest, I'm at a point of frustration due to the almost illogical aspect of .22lr "accuracy". But I'll persevere.

At the end of all this, we'll have figured most of this out though. There won't be many "myths" left as we, as a group of enthusiasts, will figure it out.

And I would add option #3. Just buy a Voodoo and shoot Center X. Up front a bit pricey but in the long run it will be the cheapest route.

Voodoo is our big leap forward in .22lr. It's going to help narrow down the inconsistencies. That and the HUGE popularity of .22lr PRS matches. The bar has been already been raised. Should be fun. And I would imagine the economics of manufacturing will decrease the cost of high end .22lr ammo sooner than later. It's gonna be a good time to shoot .22lr for awhile.

Very good reply.

I 'almost' like shooting 22rf as much some of you guys but I reached my apex of excitement a couple years ago with the cartridge, it is what it is, but I do enjoy shooting it. As a matter of fact I shoot it more than anything else, including my PCP air rifles. Most of that is done on close rimfire steel spinners, with old pumps, levers, semi's, vintage peep sighted bolt rifles, and various pistols.

BTW my Anschutz 1827F is one awesome rifle, it's fast, super reliable, and fantastic for NRL22. Somewhere back in the 5x6 thread I have a pic all 6 groups touching at 50Y in the .25" range with Lapua PB, and I only made one entry at 50Y with that ammo. Honestly shooting groups doesn't turn my crank very much. I'll do one when I check my zero but that's about it.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

@Jefe's Dope Is Vudoo in some way inherently more accurate than other 22LR guns? I understand their feeding is innovative but have not heard of other accuracy boosting features.

Yes.

At least it seems that way. It was designed around Center X and most lots of Center X produce very good results. Look at the top finishers in NRL22/PRS22 and there's just too many Voodoos at the top to dismiss it's advantage. It's reliable, repeatable, and requires little time ammo testing. Or all the best shooters like Voodoo rifles.

Also, it's so new that we really haven't seen what can be done with it in the hands of those who really compete once we see it become very main stream a la Anschutz/CZ. NOT that's there's not good shooters using Voodoos, just not mainstream. Most guys, not all, are ditching those rifles in favor of Voodoos. You can see it in the market place as well. Tikka, Bergara, Remington x2, etc. There's a market burgeoning.

 

[rick137]

Rick, I hunt with rimfire.
The rest of what I do is explore the limits of the cartridges.
I push it well beyond it's intended usage.
When I order a new case of 22lr, I take 3 or 4 boxes from the order
and use this target to determine the limitations of the batch.

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I set up on the bench and at 25 yards, see what happens for 30 shots.
All 1's and 2's means it's good enough for small game out to that distance.
If it produces 3's it's crap ammo useful only for my single six with iron sights.
I'll repeat at 5 yard increments until 3's start showing up.
That informs me of the limits at which I can trust the ammo to hit where I'm aiming.
If I get a batch that hits inside the 2 ring at 50 yards for 30 shots,
it gets saved for use during friendly competition at the local range.
Doesn't happen often.


Rick, not only does cartridge quality vary lot to lot, but case to case,
brick to brick, box to box, it'll vary cartridge to cartridge,
depending on the quality control/tolerances maintained on the assembly line .

Justin:

An amusing thought. If the box to box difference between lots is the same or less as between boxes in the same lot, what does that say about lot testing?

Rick

 

[Near miss]

Justin:

An amusing thought. If the box to box difference between lots is the same or less as between boxes in the same lot, what does that say about lot testing?

Rick

I wonder what Justin will reply..

I think..
CCI and the like (Winchester, Remington) give lot numbers to ammo batches mainly because it is probably mandatory, in case they have supplied dangerous ammo and have to do a pull-back.

Quality manufacturers like Lapua and Eley really try to keep every variable the same for the lot they making.

That said, I would not definitely say CCI and others do not have good and bad lots. But they do have more variance within a lot.

 

[justin amateur]

Rick, now y'er beginning to think like I do.

Welcome to the rimfire lottery.
You pays y'er money, you takes y'er chances.
Lot testing simply improves the odds.


By the way, did you know handling during shipping affects y'er cartridges?
I've been finding an unusual number of fail to fires in some of my on line orders.
Not just the cheap stuff but high end ammo also.
What do you think happens to the primer in the rims
when the box is tossed into the back of the truck multiple times?
Think that might be enough impact to jar primer loose from the brass?

 

[rick137]

Pardon my temerity, but if you are investing considerable time and energy in testing I would recommend the book "STATISTICS MANUAL With Examples Taken from Ordnance Development" by Crow, E.L., Davis, F.A. and Maxfield M.W; Dover Publications. These people worked in the Research Department of the U.S. Naval Ordnance Test Station. The following sentence occurs in the foreword "The proper use of modern statistical methods provides not merely a precise summary of the conclusions that may be drawn from an experiment already performed but also, with a small amount of prior performance or by making reasonable assumptions, a reliable prediction of the information that can be gained from a proposed experiment."

It struck me that trying to put dumb bombs on target had many similarities with target shooting. What is the uncertainty in altitude, what are the wind conditions between the aircraft and the target, how perfect is the geometry of the body, have the fins been bent in any way, have the fins been perfected aligned with the body?

 

[Near miss]

Pardon my temerity, but if you investing considerable time and energy in testing I would recommend the book "STATISTICS MANUAL With Examples Taken from Ordnance Development" by Crow, E.L., Davis, F.A. and Maxfield M.W; Dover Publications. These people worked in the Research Department of the U.S. Naval Ordnance Test Station. The following sentence occurs in the foreword "The proper use of modern statistical methods provides not merely a precise summary of the conclusions that may be drawn from an experiment already performed but also, with a small amount of prior performance or by making reasonable assumptions, a reliable prediction of the information that can be gained from a proposed experiment."

It struck me that trying to put dumb bombs on target had many similarities with target shooting. What is the uncertainty in altitude, what are the wind conditions between the aircraft and the target, how perfect is the geometry of the body, have the fins been bent in any way, have the fins been perfected aligned with the body?

It is a good advice. I attempt to make good use of all data but I am still at the gathering point.
However, I am not making any very hard maths but if I encounter problems handling it, I shall check out that book.

 

[hlee]

I've stopped trying to figure out 22lr ammo. I've stopped trying to figure out women. My philosophy for both is the same. Find one that likes your gun and don't stray. CenterX doesn't disappoint on the score board, even if I feel the groups could be tighter.

If you want the easy button solution to NRL/PRS rimfire competition, @Jefe's Dope has it- Vudoo rifles and CenterX ammo. This sport is more about wind and fundamentals than it is about the mechanical precision of the rifle and ammo- at least once you get past a certain threshold. If your gun can hold 0.5 MOA at 50y, you are set up to clean any rack you'll see. And, less absolute mechanical precision is required as the distance is increased and relative target sizes increase.

On steel, if the target swings-or if you can see an impact anywhere on the scoring zone- it's a hit. You don't get penalized for an edge hit- nor do you get bonus points for a center punch.

Then again, one man's soul sucking tedium is another's joy in life...

 

[usafa77]

Or any publications that we could find interesting and maybe even repeat and confirm?

Bryan Litz has a couple good chapter of results.

 

[rick137]

Shooting has many joys, talking about it, competition against yourself, competition against others, accuracy determination and analysis, contemplating the underlying physics and chemistry......One joy very fortunately does not exclude any of the others.

I have added "soul sucking tedium" to my vocabulary. Great phrase.

 

[rick137]

One more reference for accuracy testing. Harold Vaughn did accuracy experimentation/testing and reported his results in a book "Rifle Accuracy Facts." It is a, perhaps the, classic. Vaughn was interested in what causes inaccuracy in CF hunting rifles. Justin Amateur discovered the book can be downloaded for free.

 

[Near miss]

I've stopped trying to figure out 22lr ammo. I've stopped trying to figure out women. My philosophy for both is the same. Find one that likes your gun and don't stray. CenterX doesn't disappoint on the score board, even if I feel the groups could be tighter.

If you want the easy button solution to NRL/PRS rimfire competition, @Jefe's Dope has it- Vudoo rifles and CenterX ammo. This sport is more about wind and fundamentals than it is about the mechanical precision of the rifle and ammo- at least once you get past a certain threshold. If your gun can hold 0.5 MOA at 50y, you are set up to clean any rack you'll see. And, less absolute mechanical precision is required as the distance is increased and relative target sizes increase.

On steel, if the target swings-or if you can see an impact anywhere on the scoring zone- it's a hit. You don't get penalized for an edge hit- nor do you get bonus points for a center punch.

Then again, one man's soul sucking tedium is another's joy in life...

There are different takes on what rimfire can be. It certainly has its limitations, but for pushing the limitations way down the range requires good grouping for starters.
I know investigating/sorting rounds is not very fruitful, at least for the time it takes. I am very interested seeing the results.

But I am intending to take a look at internal ballistics of 22LR also which is always useful, just to know something is not worth looking into.
Many questions are open with barrel set ups, like bedding the first 2", free float, silencers and other weights/extensions of barrels.

Also external problems which are caused by temperature and its fluctuasions.

Cutting .2" from the group at 50 removes 0.6" from the group at 100. There lies my true motivation.

As for the 22LR and wind - you are right.
I also like shooting in a good wind, but it is not a place to waste Center-X. I rather use something cheaper for the learning experience because the wind causes the greatest margin for error.

@rick137 I have already started reading it, it is a good piece!

@usafa77 Yes, Litz has very much current knowledge in his books. I have read many if not all of the blogs from him. I guess I have much reason to browse through the books too.

 

[justin amateur]

NM....if'n y'er gonna go through all this trouble...I'm thinking ya' ought to go the extra mile.

Don't just test 22lr, do something truly annoying.

Test all the 22wmr cartridges at 50 and 100 yards, from a fixture.

With the chronograph numbers and documented results, it might put a dent in claims of sub-moa all day long.

Talk about myth-busting...

I've posted results using 22wmr during on line conversations and received some interesting explanations.
Wasn't the brand the rifle liked. Rifle not good enough. Chronograph was faulty. Supersonic transition.
Poor shooting skills. Bad or unstable setup. Poorly cut crown. Wind....Couldn't be the ammo quality.

Wize adze? Moi? oh yeah.

 

[Near miss]

NM....if'n y'er gonna go through all this trouble...I'm thinking ya' ought to go the extra mile.

Don't just test 22lr, do something truly annoying.

Test all the 22wmr cartridges at 50 and 100 yards, from a fixture.

With the chronograph numbers and documented results, it might put a dent in claims of sub-moa all day long.

Talk about myth-busting...

I've posted results using 22wmr during on line conversations and received some interesting explanations.
Wasn't the brand the rifle liked. Rifle not good enough. Chronograph was faulty. Supersonic transition.
Poor shooting skills. Bad or unstable setup. Poorly cut crown. Wind....Couldn't be the ammo quality.

Wize adze? Moi? oh yeah.

22WMR? I bet there is a rifle and cartridge combination that can make beautiful groups. All day long is a biiit of a stretch to it.
Maybe if "the shooter does his part"
Me and other club members have only HMR barrels. Even so the HMR costs 60-70% more at over $0.5 per round.

When I was buying my RF magnum barrel I researched both and came to conclusion that 22WMR has less chances of delivering my accuracy expectations.

I'm sorry but I will rather shoot at a matchstick with Thunderbolts at 200m than buy a WMR barrel to test how bad it is.

Thunderbolts at 110yds

I know HMR is far from the flat-shooting varmint-slaying super-sniper cartridge it could be but it has better overall reviews.

I really wished they were both better (manufactured) cartridges. But it is what it is.
I hope Norma or RWS would start loading HMR in their own plants but I will not hold my breath.. Probably CCI upgrading their QC to todays standards has better chances to happen.

 

[steve123]

Could you imagine how expensive match grade 22mag or 17hmr ammo would be??!!

This would be inconsequential to some of course but most others would be thinking, uh this just crossed the line of "do I really want to spend this much for magnum rimfire ammo!!!"

And still the ES is going to be poor compared to a carefully reloaded centerfire handload.

No denying the convenience of just opening a box of ammo, sure is nice, but one can only expect so much, that's what I have come to expect.

My awesome old HK300 in 22mag is a great rifle and shoots well with H 30 grainers, usually sub 1.5" at 100Y, and okay at 200Y on a full sized chicken silhouette, but it's a hunting and plinking rifle like most rifles in these cartridges, that I have no interest in feeding match ammo which might be slightly better.

As to Near miss experimenting, I'm fine with it and it's always fun to read this kind of stuff, new things to learn and old things to confirm.