RimX vertical stringing from Lapua test center lot testing

[Masojoh]

I have a new to me RimX with a proof prefit straight contour barrel that is making its way back to me from the Lapua West test center. This is my fourth rifle that had been tested there, and is only slightly better than the Kidd Super Grade - but worse than both my Vudoo and B14R.

The lot that I chose has significant vertical stringing that is apparent in the group images. The overall group size was a hair larger than the “best” lot at 100m (33.2 vs 34.4mm, edge to edge), however as you can see below, the rounds had much great vertical dispersion than horizontal, especially for the left group below.

Question for the RimX owners - any ideas how I could address that vertical stringing? I have the tune up kit already from Zermatt that I will install as soon as I get the gun back. I have read that inconsistent firing pin strikes could cause stringing - assuming it’s not an ammo velocity issue. I also am toying with putting my tuner on, and seeing what I can see there. The tuner rode on my vudoo for a very limited time, but I gave up on it after finding my 50 yard results suffered when tuned for 200 yards.

Two other nuggets about the test center - despite shipping my rifle in the chassis, and asking it to be tested in the chassis multiple times, it was taken out of the chassis and tested in the fixture. This was quite a let down as the shipping cost was remarkably higher due to the heavier and longer package. Also, the operator said that my RimX results were consistent with what he has seen, and that the Vudoos still produce consistently the tightest groups, most in the sub 1” range. My gen 2 V22 was 5/8”.

 

[Cowpokey]

How many rounds did you put through the new barrel before you sent it to the test center?

 

[bug_eyedmonster]

I'm curious if this is because of the Proof barrel and chamber, or the action. I don't see how the action would cause such an inconsistency to cause this. I'm taking my Rim-X build to the range this weekend, granted it's just to get the first few hundred rounds through the barrel. I'll report back with whatever accuracy findings I have though.

 

[jbell]

Is it a proof steel or CF barrel? What trigger?

If I were to guess it is a trigger sear height to cocking piece issue. The design of the Rim X cocking piece causes a lot more sear drag than the VGW design. This is something that is not talked about much other than in the realm of sear heights, but sear height is only part of the story / problem.

 

[obx22]

Clean bore to mirror bright, then carefully examine for straightness. I’ve seen barrels bent during shipping, only slightly, but they would string shots.

As for your action questions, examine your fired cases, correlate pin strikes to target impacts. If you have light strikes and low impacts, you have an area of focus for improvement.

 

[Masojoh]

Thanks for the feedback and ideas, fellas.

Other details on the rifle - it has the steel Proof barrel. I believe it is a 1.2” straight profile (I didn’t measure to confirm). It was shipped in the chassis to the test center, and in a hard case. The trigger is a Timney Hit.

I am the fourth owner, and I know the other 3. The previous owner did have a gunsmith do some work on it given some horrible accuracy issues he was seeing that came out of nowhere at the NRL22 national championship last year. That work involved cleaning up the chamber, and fixing some head space issues. I contacted the gunsmith that did the work, and he gave me the full rundown of what was done - so I am not thinking the issue is the barrel, but it well may be. He agreed that a tuner would be a good next step.

My plan is to - A) clean it thoroughly and take it to the range, and then possibly B) swap triggers with my Vudoo (trigger tech diamond, which I have read may or may not work without issue in the RimX). I don’t think I will swap triggers at the range, but I could do the bolt tune up kit there easily. I plan to do that after shooting it first to see if I note any appreciable difference.

Is the sear height a user adjustable setting?

For completeness, here is the larger report of the group testing results.

I chose the lot ending in 791 for two reasons - the 50m groups were the tightest, and the distance between hits was the lowest. The lot ending in 451 had the smallest 100m group, but there was greater horizontal dispersion and my thought was that I would have a better chance figuring out the vertical.

 

[LR1845]

I would test some other ammos before you start tearing into the rifle and changing things....this is an outta the box 0 mod B14R shooting $4.99 a box Norma Tac-22 at 50yds when i was ammo testing....the only reason I even bought the Tac-22 was to get rounds through the barrel and it was $4.99 a box...after about 250-300 rounds of the Tac-22 is when i shot the groups below...on the target with 3 separate groups the lowest group on that page was 25 or 30 rounds all the other groups are at least 10 rounds.

 

[sjmpcc022]

I would test some other ammos before you start tearing into the rifle and changing things....this is an outta the box 0 mod B14R shooting $4.99 a box Norma Tac-22 at 50yds when i was ammo testing....the only reason I even bought the Tac-22 was to get rounds through the barrel and it was $4.99 a box...after about 250-300 rounds of the Tac-22 is when i shot the groups below...on the target with 3 separate groups the lowest group on that page was 25 or 30 rounds all the other groups are at least 10 rounds.View attachment 8071765View attachment 8071766View attachment 8071767

I would be curious as to what the cost is to send a gun in for testing? And when it is tested, how are yo able to get THAT specific lot of ammo, whatever that lot happens to be? In seeing test targets on here from different people, there doesn't always seem to be a very big difference between the best lot and some of the others?

I also have a B14R, with a TT Special as the only upgrade. I also find the Norma Tac22 to shoot very well in it, groups like the ones pictured here are not uncommon. I have yet to shoot a match that stretches out to 400yds, but I do have solid dope out to 225. I guess at the end of the day, what are you chasing and how much does it cost to get there?

I read with great interest everything Justin amateur posts here. I doubt anyone has put more time into this than he has, and he calls it the lot number lottery! I'm not sure how good the best .22 in the world could be expected to shoot, but I'm pretty satisfied with the results I'm getting
from a mostly stock rifle that didn't cost three grand! And I have an Arken SH4 on it, great value for the money!

 

[LR1845]

I would be curious as to what the cost is to send a gun in for testing? And when it is tested, how are yo able to get THAT specific lot of ammo, whatever that lot happens to be? In seeing test targets on here from different people, there doesn't always seem to be a very big difference between the best lot and some of the others?

I also have a B14R, with a TT Special as the only upgrade. I also find the Norma Tac22 to shoot very well in it, groups like the ones pictured here are not uncommon. I have yet to shoot a match that stretches out to 400yds, but I do have solid dope out to 225. I guess at the end of the day, what are you chasing and how much does it cost to get there?

I read with great interest everything Justin amateur posts here. I doubt anyone has put more time into this than he has, and he calls it the lot number lottery! I'm not sure how good the best .22 in the world could be expected to shoot, but I'm pretty satisfied with the results I'm getting
from a mostly stock rifle that didn't cost three grand! And I have an Arken SH4 on it, great value for the money!

Also mine is the carbon fiber barrel model. and lot # is 2318716 and I'll bet if I was to look I could probable find more of this lot# because it's not so sought after.

And that's the thing you can spend a TON of money chasing all of this...I've done it...not only rim fire but center fire as well....as far as sending a gun to lapua to test fire...I would never do it and reason being is the cost to send it and then your tied to the most expensive ammo made plus like the OP said they put the barreled action in a fixture which IMHO is not real world testing...at least to/for me.

When I had my Vudoo I shot a couple of mini palma matches...got my ass handed to me first match and took 3rd in the second and I can tell you that some of those guys have guns that shoot LITTLE TINY 15 round groups at 100yds BUT they have 2-3 times Vudoo costs in these guns...$6-$8+K...shit their front rests cost more than my B14R LOL.

 

[sjmpcc022]

Also mine is the carbon fiber barrel model. and lot # is 2318716 and I'll bet if I was to look I could probable find more of this lot# because it's not so sought after.

And that's the thing you can spend a TON of money chasing all of this...I've done it...not only rim fire but center fire as well....as far as sending a gun to lapua to test fire...I would never do it and reason being is the cost to send it and then your tied to the most expensive ammo made plus like the OP said they put the barreled action in a fixture which IMHO is not real world testing...at least to/for me.

When I had my Vudoo I shot a couple of mini palma matches...got my ass handed to me first match and took 3rd in the second and I can tell you that some of those guys have guns that shoot LITTLE TINY 15 round groups at 100yds BUT they have 2-3 times Vudoo costs in these guns...$6-$8+K...shit their front rests cost more than my B14R LOL.

Good info, thanks! I figured it cost a few to have that done. I guess I look at it as being able to shoot little groups at 50 and hitting small steel targets consistently at hundreds of yards out is more than I EVER thought you could do with a .22 before I jumped aboard with this rifle and this game!

I'm going to be testing some steel targets out this afternoon for NRL style matches we are going to be running at my old gun club starting in a few months.! We have one long 150yd bay that will fit a couple stages and the rest will be in 50yd USPSA bays, so creativity, positional shooting and little targets will be the recipe!

 

[Masojoh]

Is it a proof steel or CF barrel? What trigger?

If I were to guess it is a trigger sear height to cocking piece issue. The design of the Rim X cocking piece causes a lot more sear drag than the VGW design. This is something that is not talked about much other than in the realm of sear heights, but sear height is only part of the story / problem.

I sent the question to Zermatt this morning, and Ray replied in under 10 minutes to look first at the trigger. He basically said that the issue you point out has been known to cause inconsistent ignition. He recommended I put the trigger tech into the RimX action, and the even better option would be the Bix’n Andy (with the 3.6mm sear, which I found in another couple of posts here). I may just order the Bix’n Andy trigger and the low sear as not to need to rob my Vudoo of its trigger, and I’m much more accustomed to competing with a 2 stage trigger vs the single stage Hit.

As for the gentlemen questioning why one would lot test, that was not what I asked for information or suggestions about. I am happy that your rifles like whatever ammo you can find. And saving a buck here and there - who doesn’t like that. I enjoy this process. And I know it produces results.

 

[jbell]

I sent the question to Zermatt this morning, and Ray replied in under 10 minutes to look first at the trigger. He basically said that the issue you point out has been known to cause inconsistent ignition. He recommended I put the trigger tech into the RimX action, and the even better option would be the Bix’n Andy (with the 3.6mm sear, which I found in another couple of posts here). I may just order the Bix’n Andy trigger and the low sear as not to need to rob my Vudoo of its trigger, and I’m much more accustomed to competing with a 2 stage trigger vs the single stage Hit.

As for the gentlemen questioning why one would lot test, that was not what I asked for information or suggestions about. I am happy that your rifles like whatever ammo you can find. And saving a buck here and there - who doesn’t like that. I enjoy this process. And I know it produces results.

Yep, I have been through it with both of the Rim X rifles I have owned. I actually started reshaping the cocking piece. A lower sear will help for sure, but there may still be excess drag while the firing pin is falling.

 

[LR1845]

I sent the question to Zermatt this morning, and Ray replied in under 10 minutes to look first at the trigger. He basically said that the issue you point out has been known to cause inconsistent ignition. He recommended I put the trigger tech into the RimX action, and the even better option would be the Bix’n Andy (with the 3.6mm sear, which I found in another couple of posts here). I may just order the Bix’n Andy trigger and the low sear as not to need to rob my Vudoo of its trigger, and I’m much more accustomed to competing with a 2 stage trigger vs the single stage Hit.

As for the gentlemen questioning why one would lot test, that was not what I asked for information or suggestions about. I am happy that your rifles like whatever ammo you can find. And saving a buck here and there - who doesn’t like that. I enjoy this process. And I know it produces results.

I don't think anyone ask or questioned your lot testing or how you go about it....my suggestion was to test other ammo before changing things.
I'd be curious to hear if changing the trigger makes the lapua ammo shoot better please update when you get it shooting.

 

[Masojoh]

I don't think anyone ask or questioned your lot testing or how you go about it....my suggestion was to test other ammo before changing things.
I'd be curious to hear if changing the trigger makes the lapua ammo shoot better please update when you get it shooting.

No worries! My experience with the test center (this is my 4th rifle they have handled) is that the good lots shoot quite well out in the field if they shoot well there. With the exception of the Kidd, I have bought at least a full case for each gun (5k for my B14R, 10K for my vudoo before the dropped it to 5k limit). The Kidd only got 4k because they didn’t have a full case available.

The vertical piece on the RimX groups is really what I am hoping to reduce. I’ll wait for a good weather day to take the rifle as-is, and the new trigger to the range and see if I can measurably tell an improvement by just changing the trigger. I honestly wasn’t in love with the Hit as I have 2 stage triggers in all of my competition guns.

I have 10 or so bricks of SK rifle match, standard plus, long range match, and pistol match to pick from and shoot as comparison to the CX. I actually have 2 full cases of Norma Tac 22, as I was seeing SDs around 9 out of my Vudoo so I bought quite a bit for practicing positional shooting. I like to keep my Eley semi auto Benchrest precision for the Kidd rifles, but I do have 2 different lots of that to throw down too. The SDs out of that ammo are pretty remarkable (~5 fps).

And to let the cat out of the bag, the case of center X cost me $1215 delivered. I won a certificate for free lot testing ($50), so I just had to pay for the ride there and back, as well as my FFL to handle the shipment and return (the test center won’t take usps shipments, so you have to go through an ffl to ship via FedEx or ups). Shipping the whole rifle cost me $150 in total plus the FFL handling fee and background check. So I’m all in it for under $1500 for a lot tested case of center X. The action in the chassis weighed over 20 pounds - shipping would have been much cheaper had I sent just the barreled action in.

I suspect many people would pay that in a heart beat for a random lot of CX…

 

[bug_eyedmonster]

For what it's worth, I put 150 rounds through my rifle yesterday using Aguila Pistol Match (I have quite a bit of this and wanted to use a waxed bullet) to start the break in period to "season" the barrel. I didn't have any vertical or horizontal strings at all, they were grouping quite well, actually, but I did have a different problem. I was getting very random flyers. I wasn't trying to shoot for groups in particular, so I was shooting 10 rounds per target, and even mid-magazine would get a random flyer that would hit off POI if random direction. Now the ammo I was using was older, so I'm not going to read too much into this, but I plan to bring some of the Wolf Match and Lapua Center X this coming weekend to the range to see if that will change. The build consists of Rim-X action, Bartlein barrel chambered by Bison Tactical, cut to 22", Jewell trigger, MDT Elite Chassis.

After reading the other posts, I'm curious how much the trigger/sear engagement has to do with any of the .22lr rifle builds. TIL!

Jerry

 

[BurtG]

Vudoos still produce consistently the tightest groups, most in the sub 1” range

This is at 100?

 

[Masojoh]

This is at 100?

The test center manager mentioned when I was asking how typical my results where, especially considering I have had 3 other rifles tested and know what is possible -
———
Unfortunately, in my experience, this is actually on par for the RimX action. I have seen very few RimX that will shoot “outstanding”, or keep up to the Vudoo expectation of 1-MOA or less at 100M.
———

The rifle is back in my hands. There was a mixup at the supplier of the trigger and sear, so I’m currently stuck with the stock Timney. I changed the tensioner claw and firing pin. The new firing pin has a slightly different profile than the one I took out, and the tensioner had a small chip so I replaced it proactively. My bore scope is acting up, so I can’t tell for sure if the carbon ring is all gone. I plan to go shoot later this week to see if I can replicate the stringing by shooting at 200.

 

[littlesister]

For what it's worth, I put 150 rounds through my rifle yesterday using Aguila Pistol Match (I have quite a bit of this and wanted to use a waxed bullet) to start the break in period to "season" the barrel. I didn't have any vertical or horizontal strings at all, they were grouping quite well, actually, but I did have a different problem. I was getting very random flyers. I wasn't trying to shoot for groups in particular, so I was shooting 10 rounds per target, and even mid-magazine would get a random flyer that would hit off POI if random direction. Now the ammo I was using was older, so I'm not going to read too much into this, but I plan to bring some of the Wolf Match and Lapua Center X this coming weekend to the range to see if that will change. The build consists of Rim-X action, Bartlein barrel chambered by Bison Tactical, cut to 22", Jewell trigger, MDT Elite Chassis.

After reading the other posts, I'm curious how much the trigger/sear engagement has to do with any of the .22lr rifle builds. TIL!

Jerry

Flyers are to be expected shooting Aguila Pistol Match! You can't determine a guns accuracy level shooting crap ammo. Go with the centerX.

 

[drglock]

My RimX action must be the same. Can’t get it to shoot 1 moa or better at 100yds either

 

[Boxerglocker]

The test center manager mentioned when I was asking how typical my results where, especially considering I have had 3 other rifles tested and know what is possible -
———
Unfortunately, in my experience, this is actually on par for the RimX action. I have seen very few RimX that will shoot “outstanding”, or keep up to the Vudoo expectation of 1-MOA or less at 100M.
———

The rifle is back in my hands. There was a mixup at the supplier of the trigger and sear, so I’m currently stuck with the stock Timney. I changed the tensioner claw and firing pin. The new firing pin has a slightly different profile than the one I took out, and the tensioner had a small chip so I replaced it proactively. My bore scope is acting up, so I can’t tell for sure if the carbon ring is all gone. I plan to go shoot later this week to see if I can replicate the stringing by shooting at 200.

I don't believe it's your action, it's most likely the Proof barrel or magazine adjustment or a combination of both. Not the first time I have heard of it happening specifically with RimX Proof prefits. I know one guy that had the same experience as yours, called proof and they responded that their barrels actually performed better with "lesser" ammo offerings. I was just there with @littlepod a few weeks back watching 2 of his rifles being tested. They allowed me to take a baseline of my MCR spun Kreiger RimX in it's XLR Envy Pro chassis with my own brought random lot of SK_LRM at both my zero and tuned EC tuner setting. Tuned it did 10 shots, 17mm at 50 and 29mm at 100 edge to edge. (17.9mm is a dime, 25.1mm is an inch). I wish that I had the available funds/time and actually made an appointment to get it tested. I'll definitely will be returning next time in person to have it tested sometime in the future.

 

[acourvil]

It was a while ago, but when I sent my RimX with a Krieger barrel to the Lapua test center, I asked how it did relative to other rifles they were seeing. I was told it was better than average, but he also volunteered that a lot of people with RimX actions were using Proof barrels and that in general those were worse than average.

 

[littlepod]

I've had Bartlein, Krieger, Ace, and Benchmark barrels tested at Lapua on my Vudoos. Generally speaking the happyish range is 14-15mm at 50 and 28-29mm at 100.

Really good is the 12mm at 50 and 24mm at 100. My Benchmark was able to do that with Midas 2 yrs ago, but not with Center-X. My Ace barrel a year previous did it with Center-X 3 years ago.

This year, I only wanted to test Center-X, and my Krieger did a 13.5mm and a 15mm at 50. And then it did a 23mm and 26mm at 100. That was the best lot. Most of the the other ammo was in the mid 30s.

Assuming all gunsmithing equal, the barrel and how tight it slugged has a lot to do with it. This year's Bartlein steel is not as good as previous years from talking to a few gunsmiths. And the results show that... my Bartlein from this year is shooting 20% larger groups than my Krieger.

 

[BurtG]

Hmm if 1” at 100 is great, my vudoo was doing better than I thought

 

[Masojoh]

I made it to the range today, and took several different ammo types. I thoroughly cleaned the gun, which I will speak more to in a minute.

Norma tac-22 was what I used to zero. Groups were not nearly as impressive as when my vudoo shoots that stuff. No big deal, and no surprise. Switched over to sk semi auto for the Lapua/sk lube fouling. That ammo is crap (3” plus groups at 100), but it helps hasten the bore preparation. Moved on to the lot tested center X and saw what was shown in the test center results. It was gusting 10-14mph coming in from 10:30, so I didn’t sweat the horizontal - but the vertical was still there. I measured SDs of 10-11 on two boxes. Not impressed, but made note to return on a calmer day to play with my tuner and that ammo.

And then I tried two boxes of center X that came from my Kidd Super Grade lot, and holy smokes - we found a winner. Those were the groups I was expecting out of the new lot, but it clearly showed the gun capable of easy sub MOA groups. I shot out to 300 yards, and couldn’t have been happier. SD was 8-9 for that lot.

I switched over to some eley that I have, and was quite pleased with the Practice 100 rounds. Those are discontinued from what I can tell, but I do have 1.5 bricks. SD on the rounds was 5, and the groups were very impressive.

I got home to find my replacement bore scope (warranty) in the mail box. After I cleaned the rifle, I ran the scope down the tube to find the remnants of a carbon ring that was still there. Spent a few more minutes cleaning the chamber, and it is clean now.

I’m going to chalk the stringing up to the ammo. I have hope that the tuner will pull some of the vertical back in. I did shoot a box of the new CX lot through my Vudoo, and was not impressed there. My daughter and I plan to shoot on Friday, and I may have her shoot a box through her B14R to see if her gun likes it.

Thanks to all for the ideas and feedback. While the Hit was very smooth, I like my 2 stages. So I will go with the Bix’N Andy when it gets here. Maybe it will help with the stringing too - maybe not.

 

[littlepod]

Hmm if 1” at 100 is great, my vudoo was doing better than I thought

If you are consistently shooting 10 shot groups sub 1" then yes it is great.

Where a 10 shot group is generally 30% larger than a 5 shot group.

 

[Masojoh]

I've had Bartlein, Krieger, Ace, and Benchmark barrels tested at Lapua on my Vudoos. Generally speaking the happyish range is 14-15mm at 50 and 28-29mm at 100.

Really good is the 12mm at 50 and 24mm at 100. My Benchmark was able to do that with Midas 2 yrs ago, but not with Center-X. My Ace barrel a year previous did it with Center-X 3 years ago.

This year, I only wanted to test Center-X, and my Krieger did a 13.5mm and a 15mm at 50. And then it did a 23mm and 26mm at 100. That was the best lot. Most of the the other ammo was in the mid 30s.

Assuming all gunsmithing equal, the barrel and how tight it slugged has a lot to do with it. This year's Bartlein steel is not as good as previous years from talking to a few gunsmiths. And the results show that... my Bartlein from this year is shooting 20% larger groups than my Krieger.

My vudoo tested in the 15s for the two best lots. One was 29mm at 100m, and the other was 26mm. I was probably one of the last customers to buy two cases (early fall of 2021), and I bought a case of each. Have about 6 bricks left across the two lots.

 

[Masojoh]

I headed to the range this morning with hopes of enjoying the 3mph winds, and was met with some exceptionally thick fog. I was able to wait it out, and work on my tuner using the RimX and the lot tested center X. The new trigger is still not here, so I was shooting the Timney Hit.

I followed one of the many write ups for finding the sweet spots by firing 2 shots at different aim points, and honing in on the ones where they are closest. At 100 yards, I found 3 or 4 settings that produced rounds that were nearly touching. Those were shot again with 5 round groups. When I landed on the best tune, I went back to a standard thread protector and fired a 5 round group, replacing the tuner one last time for a final 5 round group.

These were the end result. Edge to edge, they measure around 0.65”. I shot at 200 and 300, and even confirmed by 50 yard zero was still on point.

The moral of the story? While I’m not 100% sure, I think it was a carbon ring / dirty chamber and barrel. That’s all. The tuner helped bring things together

I switched over to some eley team that I wanted to try out, and practiced some from the tank trap and barrel.

 

[littlepod]

I headed to the range this morning with hopes of enjoying the 3mph winds, and was met with some exceptionally thick fog. I was able to wait it out, and work on my tuner using the RimX and the lot tested center X. The new trigger is still not here, so I was shooting the Timney Hit.

I followed one of the many write ups for finding the sweet spots by firing 2 shots at different aim points, and honing in on the ones where they are closest. At 100 yards, I found 3 or 4 settings that produced rounds that were nearly touching. Those were shot again with 5 round groups. When I landed on the best tune, I went back to a standard thread protector and fired a 5 round group, replacing the tuner one last time for a final 5 round group.

These were the end result. Edge to edge, they measure around 0.65”. I shot at 200 and 300, and even confirmed by 50 yard zero was still on point.
View attachment 8080513

View attachment 8080514

The moral of the story? While I’m not 100% sure, I think it was a carbon ring / dirty chamber and barrel. That’s all. The tuner helped bring things together

I switched over to some eley team that I wanted to try out, and practiced some from the tank trap and barrel.
View attachment 8080515

When you went back to your thread protector how much bigger were the groups?

 

[Masojoh]

My guess is 1.1” or so. I didn’t have a good plan with that target when I started out, so I just took notes on the settings that I wanted to repeat. When I got to where I was shooting the 5 round groups, I had to pick open spots on the target that would allow me to clearly see the shots without overlapping other groups.

I’ll repeat my tuner Vs no tuner test next week after the new trigger goes in.

 

[Csafisher]

You really have to shoot multiple 5 shot groups or move to 10 shots. I shoot many 6x5s just to compare to the data on this site. My groups vary quite a bit. Maybe from .5” to 1.1” at 100. So I can’t shoot 1 group and say it’s the best tuner setting. My next rifle won’t have a tuner.

 

[littlepod]

You really have to shoot multiple 5 shot groups or move to 10 shots. I shoot many 6x5s just to compare to the data on this site. My groups vary quite a bit. Maybe from .5” to 1.1” at 100. So I can’t shoot 1 group and say it’s the best tuner setting. My next rifle won’t have a tuner.

Why not? Just to not deal with it or you think it makes groups worse?

 

[Masojoh]

I wasn’t sold on the tuner as a solution, if I’m honest. But I had limited time before the wind picked up, and the one thing is sure - manipulating the tuner does modify the group size. I shot 18 or so 2 shot “groups”. The top contenders were either one hole, or within 1/8” of touching each other at 100 yards.

The last time I fooled with the tuner, I shot all my groups at 200 yards, and there were very clear improvements. Not everyone has access to a range like that, or the time to shoot in a day when there is minimal wind. The fog this morning forced me to get going at 100, which is where I stayed.

This is not me saying “hey y’all - go buy a tuner!” It’s me saying, for the vertical stringing I saw in my test center results, they appear to be under control due to a clean rifle, and a tuner. Your individual results may vary. I’m just trying to be sure that when I play the games I play, the gun doesn’t limit me.

 

[Csafisher]

Why not? Just to not deal with it or you think it makes groups worse?

I don’t think it makes it worse. Mines threaded to the barrel so it’s not going anywhere. It’s just hard to see any gains because of the noise already in any 22lr system. If I had a 100yd tunnel to test in and a lot more money to spend on ammo I’d be more positive about it. The whole 2 shot test is nonsense imho for rimfire. Sure it could eliminate bad settings but it can’t tell when it’s good. I think to really dig deep you’d have to shoot like 20shot groups and measure mean radius.

 

[littlepod]

I don’t think it makes it worse. Mines threaded to the barrel so it’s not going anywhere. It’s just hard to see any gains because of the noise already in any 22lr system. If I had a 100yd tunnel to test in and a lot more money to spend on ammo I’d be more positive about it. The whole 2 shot test is nonsense imho for rimfire. Sure it could eliminate bad settings but it can’t tell when it’s good. I think to really dig deep you’d have to shoot like 20shot groups and measure mean radius.

Agree. To do a real tuning test it took nearly 250-400 rounds. So tuning was like almost 100$ of center x.

 

[Williwaw]

Agree. To do a real tuning test it took nearly 250-400 rounds. So tuning was like almost 100$ of center x.

That is very realistic and it goes up from there if the ammo isn't quite on par in my rifle. Nevertheless I go through the process because my goal is to always get the best average/aggregate scores possible out of each case lot that I purchase.

 

[Csafisher]

I wasn’t sold on the tuner as a solution, if I’m honest. But I had limited time before the wind picked up, and the one thing is sure - manipulating the tuner does modify the group size. I shot 18 or so 2 shot “groups”. The top contenders were either one hole, or within 1/8” of touching each other at 100 yards.

The last time I fooled with the tuner, I shot all my groups at 200 yards, and there were very clear improvements. Not everyone has access to a range like that, or the time to shoot in a day when there is minimal wind. The fog this morning forced me to get going at 100, which is where I stayed.

This is not me saying “hey y’all - go buy a tuner!” It’s me saying, for the vertical stringing I saw in my test center results, they appear to be under control due to a clean rifle, and a tuner. Your individual results may vary. I’m just trying to be sure that when I play the games I play, the gun doesn’t limit me.

I’d like to try more tuning at 200. It’s just always so windy where I live lol. And the range typically has a switchy head wind. Last time I did it was 5-8mph wind…. So I just looked at vertical but couldn’t really tell if one setting was notably better.

 

[littlesister]

I’d like to try more tuning at 200. It’s just always so windy where I live lol. And the range typically has a switchy head wind. Last time I did it was 5-8mph wind…. So I just looked at vertical but couldn’t really tell if one setting was notably better.

A few things I have found to be true about tuners. You can believe it or waste a lot of time and hundreds of dollars in ammo finding out for your self! Tuners are not miracle workers! They won't make bad ammo good and they won't fix a gun that has accuracy problems to begin with. In order for a tuner to be effective your gun needs to be able to shoot consistent tight groups at 50 yds but showing some vertical of say 1/4 in or less with a plain barrel. Once you get to this accuracy level you can add the tuner and probably tune this vertical out and tighten up overall group size. You can't tune a 22lr barrel at 200 yds. It's also extremely hard to tune at 100 unless you have perfect conditions and are a excellent shot. 50 yds is the best distance to tune and then you need your best ammo and perfect conditions. A tuner would have 0 chance of correcting the vertical stringing shown in the OP

 

[Csafisher]

A few things I have found to be true about tuners. You can believe it or waste a lot of time and hundreds of dollars in ammo finding out for your self! Tuners are not miracle workers! They won't make bad ammo good and they won't fix a gun that has accuracy problems to begin with. In order for a tuner to be effective your gun needs to be able to shoot consistent tight groups at 50 yds but showing some vertical of say 1/4 in or less with a plain barrel. Once you get to this accuracy level you can add the tuner and probably tune this vertical out and tighten up overall group size. You can't tune a 22lr barrel at 200 yds. It's also extremely hard to tune at 100 unless you have perfect conditions and are an excellent shot. 50 yds is the best distance to tune and then you need your best ammo and perfect conditions. A tuner would have 0 chance of correcting the vertical stringing shown in the OP

That doesn’t make much sense to me. If it has vertical at 50 it will be magnified at 100-200. Definitely needs to be calm though. Tuners not being miracle workers gets back to my point that it takes a lot of ammo to find the right setting even with good ammo.

 

[grauhanen]

A few things I have found to be true about tuners. You can believe it or waste a lot of time and hundreds of dollars in ammo finding out for your self! Tuners are not miracle workers! They won't make bad ammo good and they won't fix a gun that has accuracy problems to begin with. In order for a tuner to be effective your gun needs to be able to shoot consistent tight groups at 50 yds but showing some vertical of say 1/4 in or less with a plain barrel. Once you get to this accuracy level you can add the tuner and probably tune this vertical out and tighten up overall group size. You can't tune a 22lr barrel at 200 yds. It's also extremely hard to tune at 100 unless you have perfect conditions and are a excellent shot. 50 yds is the best distance to tune and then you need your best ammo and perfect conditions. A tuner would have 0 chance of correcting the vertical stringing shown in the OP

This is absolutely true. It may not please shooters who hope a tuner will provide a quick and inexpensive way to improve the performance of inexpensive-to-middling ammo, but it's always important to remember there are no shortcuts in rimfire.

Nobody should think they can begin to tune a .22LR at 200 yards. It's not practical to begin at 100 yards, either. Start tuning at 50 yards, where results can be more consistent and where there's less error caused by wind, shooter error, or unexpected MV variation. A shooter must know when the results are tuner-related or not and this is difficult at 100 and virtually impossible at 200. When using a tuner at longer distances, the best a shooter can do is count on a setting that's good for 50 will be good for 100 and more.

 

[Masojoh]

Opinions are like assholes - everyone has one. And the internet has no shortage of them…. Opinions, that is.

I come to this site to learn from others, to share my observations, and to ask questions. This thread started with a question about possible sources of vertical stringing seen in an indoor lot testing environment. The main theme that surfaced to look at was top sear height on the trigger causing inconsistent ignition, which is something I was not aware of. #win.

The gunsmith who worked on the gun suggested I also look at a tuner. Given that two out of the top 3 shooters at my local matches run tuners (with me being the third), and that I had one in my parts box, I decided to give it a shot.

I like to think I’m better than the average shooter. And I am picky about the weather when it comes to shooting bench work. At my range, there are wind flags at 25, 50, and 75 yards, with wind socks at every 100. I wait until any breeze has calmed to near nothing before shooting. I’m semi retired, so I seldom am in a hurry when I’m shooting. I buy quality ammo, and run it across my chrono to get velocity, SD, and ES data. The matches where I compete seldom have targets less than 1MOA. When I get to where I can consistently shoot under 1MOA, I transition from the rifle/ammo performance to my positional performance and stability.

Just because something doesn’t work for you does not mean it won’t work for someone else. Maybe your abilities are your limit. Understanding the factors that may influence the results is important. Using absolute terms (“absolutely” and “nobody should” xyz) demonstrates a false sense of understanding that everyone is created equal - which is not the case.

And that is my opinion.

 

[Williwaw]

That doesn’t make much sense to me. If it has vertical at 50 it will be magnified at 100-200. Definitely needs to be calm though. Tuners not being miracle workers gets back to my point that it takes a lot of ammo to find the right setting even with good ammo.

Maybe this will help. Really, the answer is right there in your own post above.

To start I accept that when I tune I am changing the barrels motion to 'time' bullet exit to be on one of the many cycles of barrel rise. Slow bullets exit later when the barrel angle/trajectory is higher and this helps the slower round hit nearer the fast round, vertical wise.

So, as you point out, the vertical due to MV variations is greater with distance. In fact much greater than tuning can 100 per cent compensate for depending on the magnitude of MV variations. Said another way, the barrel may not be flexing enough or fast enough to effect full positive compensation. But this partial compensation is better than nothing. And the optimal setting is much easier to find at 50 yards.

As an aside I'll say that when I finally accept a tune as optimal it will shoot multiple 8x5s that I overlay to create 40 shot groups that are consistently as wide as they are high. I don't always get there but if I don't make it I'm at least close. Sometimes they are actually wider on average.

Hope this helps.

 

[Csafisher]

Maybe this will help. Really, the answer is right there in your own post above.

To start I accept that when I tune I am changing the barrels motion to 'time' bullet exit to be on one of the many cycles of barrel rise. Slow bullets exit later when the barrel angle/trajectory is higher and this helps the slower round hit nearer the fast round, vertical wise.

So, as you point out, the vertical due to MV variations is greater with distance. In fact much greater than tuning can 100 per cent compensate for depending on the magnitude of MV variations. Said another way, the barrel may not be flexing enough or fast enough to effect full positive compensation. But this partial compensation is better than nothing. And the optimal setting is much easier to find at 50 yards.

As an aside I'll say that when I finally accept a tune as optimal it will shoot multiple 8x5s that I overlay to create 40 shot groups that are consistently as wide as they are high. I don't always get there but if I don't make it I'm at least close. Sometimes they are actually wider on average.

Hope this helps.

I don’t shoot BR, I shoot NRL/PRS and my rifle already shoots well enough for me at 50yd. Shoots good enough beyond as well. Im just playing with it to see if it will make it better. If you can’t tell that a tuner changes anything at 100-200 then what is the point?

 

[Williwaw]

I don’t shoot BR, I shoot NRL/PRS and my rifle already shoots well enough for me at 50yd. Shoots good enough beyond as well. Im just playing with it to see if it will make it better. If you can’t tell that a tuner changes anything at 100-200 then what is the point?

From what you say there is no point for you. Generally, from what I observe on SH, there is little to be gained for many whose interest is NRL/PRS. Especially unless they are interested in taking the time and expending the ammo that it takes for the relatively small gains that tuning offers. The skill sets between the disciplines overlaps only a little and I believe that the interest in tuners shown by NRL/PRS shooters is disproportionate to its relevance.

I'm not a PRS/NRL shooter but from the videos and interviews I watch I think a tuners would be about 20th on my list of things to work on. Cortina talks about hardware and software. Tuners are hardware and thus one more relatively inexpensive do-dad that can easily distract from the software issues. Discipline, focus, other aspects of the mental game(see Lanny Bassham) and wind are all the low hanging fruit.

Apologies to the OP, although you mentioned tuners this has become a tangent. Regards the two ten shot groups in your first post, overlay them and the thing starts to fill in and go round, less vertical. Quite possibly another 20 on top of them and excess vertical may be gone. For me. I wouldn't be confident in calling excess vertical until I had seen it in three 40 shot groups. You also mention it is a new barrel and don't forget test center results are just one data point and not the only thing that matters.

 

[Boxerglocker]

Everyone has their entitled opinions on tuners, I certainly do. I don't believe its a cure all, but I do believe they do have merit and proved it to myself enough to run one on my own guns. As for the place of tuners in NRL22/PRS22 you'll see a lot of them on the firing line at major matches on many of the top most experienced shooters in the sport, including Chris Simons 2 time defending NRL22 Champion.

 

[littlesister]

That doesn’t make much sense to me. If it has vertical at 50 it will be magnified at 100-200. Definitely needs to be calm though. Tuners not being miracle workers gets back to my point that it takes a lot of ammo to find the right setting even with good ammo.

Thats my point! The best you can do is to try and tune out all the vertical or as much as you can out at 50. And let it ride. Grauhanens reply is dead on also! Believe me when I say I'm really not trying to be a NO it ALL or just a plain SA. Just trying to share info I've found to be true having worked with tuners for several years on many different guns. Think about this. Why do test centers test indoors with the gun in a vice? They're trying to take as many variables out of the process as possible. Leavng only the ammo responsible for groups. Same applies to tuners. You try to take as many variables out as possible leaving only tuner settings affecting vertical spread and overall group size.