PRS Talk RO’s shooting the course before the match

[Buck2]

What are your thoughts about RO’s that are competing (or any other competitor) shooting the course the day before the match? I am new to PRS and was surprised to hear a couple RO’s talking about how they shot the course the day before. Seems like this would not be allowed. It would be a clear advantage in my view. I know in other shooting sports that I have shot, this is not allowed.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Standard procedure in USPSA, 3 Gun and a few other sports. It seems like most of the time they draw the short stick and the weather sucks the day before, so between that and the fact that I'm already very grateful for their donated time I don't worry about any potential advantages.

 

[Fig]

I was at a clinic for two days before a Border Wars match and we were shooting some, not all, of the stages. They DQed everyone who was at the clinic for shooting the course before the match started. We were allowed to compete, but they did not record the score. I thought shooting the course before the match was a no, no, but maybe only at a Borders Wars match, and not in PRS... I think it's a pretty big advantage especially if comditions are stable.

I've never seen anyone intentionally "cheat". There are a few assholes (we all know who they are) who seem to always be the same ones arguing with the ROs over an impact.

 

[308pirate]

Standard procedure in USPSA, 3 Gun and a few other sports. It seems like most of the time they draw the short stick and the weather sucks the day before, so between that and the fact that I'm already very grateful for their donated time I don't worry about any potential advantages.

+1

The conditions will average themselves out.

 

[b6graham]

in my limited experience, they shoot the course not for score. and they see it the same as you do. basically blind. even if they helped setup the match, there's a big difference between placing and painting targets and finding them on the clock. winds change throughout the day and from one day to the next so again, what's the advantage?

every bigger handgun match that i've RO'd we shot the day before. and it's always 100% been a clusterfuck. targets not working right. COF written poorly. you spend the entire day working out bugs you don't even want to shoot it. there is no advantage that i've seen.

the bigger advantage is shooting big matches at your home range where you know the spread of wind conditions through the day and year. no one's gonna get DQ'd for that.

 

[Buck2]

You are correct in that wind conditions change from day to day but having a chance to experiment with building a position on a stage, shooting movers to find the correct lead, time management at each stage, etc., etc. would all be an advantage.

Maybe for a top shooter with a lot of experience this may not be much of an advantage, but for someone like me it would be a huge benefit.

Please understand that I’m not trying to make a big deal of it. Just an observation. I'm not good enough to worry about it at this point anyway.

 

[Kadams1563]

I don't see what the problem is. If they shoot the match before they sign up to RO the match. You all should be thankful because if they didn't do it who would?

In USPSA most of the time the RO's shoot before the match and for free due to them giving their time to RO.

Are they supposed to shoot the match and RO at the same time?

 

[Buck2]

"Are they supposed to shoot the match and RO at the same time?"

That's what these were doing.

Ok, should have never mentioned RO's. What about someone that's not an RO. Do you feel that it's ok for them to shoot a practice round the day before?

 

[b6graham]

You are correct in that wind conditions change from day to day but having a chance to experiment with building a position on a stage, shooting movers to find the correct lead, time management at each stage, etc., etc. would all be an advantage.

Maybe for a top shooter with a lot of experience this may not be much of an advantage, but for someone like me it would be a huge benefit.

Please understand that I’m not trying to make a big deal of it. Just an observation. I'm not good enough to worry about it at this point anyway.

they're RO's during the actual 2 day match, not shooters. i don't know of anywhere where they shoot it before the match and then again for score/points.

because they volunteer they're allowed to shoot the stages for fun basically. only at handgun matches do the RO scores count still, but there's no advantage they only shoot it once.

 

[Fig]

Yea, I'm not getting that either. How are they shooting the match and ROing? If they're shooting they're not ROs except in club matches where someone in the squad is acting as RO, but I've never been to a $100-$250 match where the squad was ROing for itself. That's asking for controversy.

 

[Fig]

they're RO's during the actual 2 day match, not shooters. i don't know of anywhere where they shoot it before the match and then again for score/points.

because they volunteer they're allowed to shoot the stages for fun basically. only at handgun matches do the RO scores count still, but there's no advantage they only shoot it once.

Well, then shooting the course the day before is only helping them be a better RO IMO!

 

[b6graham]

Yea, I'm not getting that either. How are they shooting the match and ROing? If they're shooting they're not ROs except in club matches where someone in the squad is acting as RO, but I've never been to a $100-$250 match where the squad was ROing for itself. That's asking for controversy.

only some CD matches i believe do you RO for the team behind you, but that's way different

 

[Buck2]

These were one day matches. The RO's would keep score and then shoot for score after the rest of the squad had shot that station, we would help keep their score.

 

[Fig]

Anything is possible at the club level. Their range their rules; as well as every club member in the match has probably shot the course a hundred times... Doubtful they are able to change it up significantly for a match. Most clubs don't have that much dirt...

 

[b6graham]

well it's a 1 day match? is it for PRS points or a prize table? if i set it up i'd probably shoot it too or at least get in the positions to check sight and safety stuff and if i'm doing that might as well get the practice in

sounds normal for a club match though. around here we all shoot and RO as necessary. first shooter ROs everyone else if comfortable and just rotate

 

[hic28]

These were one day matches. The RO's would keep score and then shoot for score after the rest of the squad had shot that station, we would help keep their score.

How much was the match fee?

I set up, write cofs, RO and shoot our monthly club matches.

Typically one of us will shoot the cof a week before to make sure times are doable so the newer shooters aren’t getting slaughtered month after month. It’s also good practice and the winds change day to day, plus It’s a club match so it’s not that big of a deal. No prizes other than bragging rights.

 

[Buck2]

$90. Their all for bragging rights. I don't know of any shooting sports that you can make money on unless you have a good enough name to charge for lessons.

 

[hic28]

$90. Their all for bragging rights. I don't know of any shooting sports that you can make money on unless you have a good enough name to charge for lessons.

That’s a rape job for a one day monthly club match. They better be providing lunch and a Bj for that price.

 

[b6graham]

That’s a rape job for a one day monthly club match. They better be providing lunch and a Bj for that price.

apparently this is common in VA, NC areas from what i gather from another thread/PM convo

 

[Buck2]

LoL, yeah your right.

 

[Kadams1563]

Ok if a small club level match I see that the RO’s shoot along with the other shooters but then the other shooters become RO’s. It’s more of a small match type deal where everyone is just shooting for fun.

I don’t have a problem with that as it gets me in the mindset of watching someone else for mistakes and safety violations.

If this was a prize table match or points match I guess it would be an issue. They should be able to compete but on a different day IMO. Have to have honesty and trust in your club because if you don’t it causes all kinds of mayhem.

 

[Shawd43]

In my limited experience as an RO, it’s completely voluntary and we do shoot the stages prior to the match. Seemingly the reason for it is to identify stages confusion or possible briefing confusions prior to the match. It makes it easier to score and helps with safety, overall it gives us the ability to run the stages smoothly. We do not get points for matches and do not take part in the prize table. Maybe there is a rule but there is at least an unspoken rule that you provide all shooters with a fair and equitable match, meaning nobody gets an advantage that would allow them to game the game.

 

[502Chevelle]

At PNTC, the ROs will usually shoot the course the two days before a big PRS match. This lets the bugs get worked out, etc as mentioned above. This can really help the competitors, as some goofy stuff can come up in a match, and when it does, the ROs probably saw it yesterday, and know what call is expected.

 

[308pirate]

I don't know of any shooting sports that you can make money on unless you have a good enough name to charge for lessons.

Live pigeons. The prize money people wager and shoot for makes the richest prize table you've ever seen in PRS look like chicken shit.

You won't find any match bulletins for it tho

 

[Olen_4504]

apparently this is common in VA, NC areas from what i gather from another thread/PM convo

yes. can confirm this. $80-90 for club matches here

 

[Buck2]

Live pigeons. The prize money people wager and shoot for makes the richest prize table you've ever seen in PRS look like chicken shit.

You won't find any match bulletins for it tho

You are correct. I had forgot about them. Most of those are kept on the down low.

 

[LH_Gina]

For a national level event, we'll let our RO's shoot the COF beforehand to help determine adequate stage times, targets, etc., but their scores are kept separate from the people who paid to shoot the national event. They're never included in the mix. Having the RO's shoot the stages also helps them better understand what equipment is and should be allowed which limits some of the gaming I keep hearing complaints about. Our club matches are different. A couple of us design a course of fire and everyone shoots it at the same time - no one shoots it beforehand.

 

[RyanM]

I used to run matches in Canada. The few of us that ran them together had access to the COF for a long time before the match and then the day before the match (Set up day) we would check sight lines, positions, etc. on the props.

You cannot have someone who knows the COF shoot for score against someone who doesn't. The other MDs and I would always complete against each other for bragging rights but that is about it. How is it fair if someone has advanced knowledge.

I have heard rumours that another club in Canada there is a shooter who practices all the stages the day before as he is geographically close - that reeks of cheating to me.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

While I have never run a match or seriously competed in a match where lucrative prizes were won and lost, I offer no criticism of them.

Prohibiting RO's from shooting the match, IMHO, may well result in COF problems being undetected. I think they should shoot the match both before and during the actual COF. They should not be eligible for prizes that regular contenders vie for, but I would have no problems with them earning them for their own pre-match competition.

I honestly believe that an RO who has fired the course in advance is in a better position to moderate the actual COF, because they've been there and done that.

Yes, it would probably add to match expenses, but that might lead to other improvements as well. More than that would not be my place to comment.

Greg

 

[Casamike]

I recently volunteered to RO a PRS match in an attempt to learn a bit more before shooting one. Ive shot tons of USPSA, steel challenge and almost all kinds of pistol matches, but I was very surprised to see the way several things worked at a PRS match. I am still confused why some stages had ROs when each of the squads had a Squad designated RO also. Ive seen tons of pistol matches where the ROs shot the day before and I never saw it as an advantage (save for a massive rain on one day and clear the next) and while the changing weather may be a bigger factor in a PRS match, there is no way to be sure that the competitors wont shoot in even better weather tomorrow. Either way, ROing is such a thankless job, If that very small advantage is what motivates someone to RO, Im happy to let them have it. I know after my first experience ROing a PRS match, its highly unlikely that Ill volunteer my time again anytime soon.