Rock Island Armory 1903 I.D.

[Damaged]

Hello, Folks

This is my first post and I appreciate your time. Some years back, I acquired a Rock Island Armory 1903 rifle from the Grandson of a Marine. The Grandson claimed the rifle had been carried through WWII by his Grandfather who served as a Scout/Sniper for the Corps. This man was, quite literally disgusted by this rifle as it had "done so much killing" and wanted nothing to do with it. Seriously, he wouldn't even touch it. I had to retrieve it from the back seat of his truck. His Grandfather had passed away and he wanted to be rid of the rifle. I got it for 85 bucks. His Grandfather had sporterized the rifle, so the stock has been chopped. I am not very educated on the 1903 and was wondering if any of you could shed light on the exact model of this rifle so I can get it back to as close to it's original set-up as possible. I know through the Springfield registry according to the serial number that it was manufactured in 1907 by the Rock Island Armory and that's about as much as I know. I've attached pics of the barrel markings which are "USMC 9-42 and a circle with an S in the center. It does have the Hatcher Hole in the receiver and it looks like the bolt may have been switched out as the receiver is parkerized but the bolt is shiny chrome and there are no numbers anywhere on the bolt. It has been drilled and tapped for a scope, but there are no drill/taps on the barrel which I believe there would be for the Unertl scope, but maybe the Hi-Lux was used? I also have the rifle case which has the Marine Corps Emblem stamped on the leather headpiece. Any info any of you could share is greatly appreciated. Thanks again for your time.

 

[pmclaine]

Interesting rifle.

Despite the case graffiti I don't think it's a service used sniper.

It looks more a sporterized 03.

Rock Island guns were not those the sniper rifles were pulled from.

Now that little punch prior to the serial "might" be a USMC trait and there were a lot of RI 03s used in WWI. An SRS check may prove a hit.

The Sedgely contract USMC barrel is not a guaranteed tell but in connection with other tells might be legit. 1942 date is interesting.

Im thinking for a war gun they would have went with one that had real stock bolts. Brass pins is an 03A3 trait.

The shaping of the bolt indicates "civilian" use to me.

Calling @cplnorton where are you?

Ally, ally, in come free!

 

[pmclaine]

Unsure but the case seems to remind me of a Boyt case the Marines issued with M40 rifles.

If the case can be verified to someone by name, service history that could be a real treasure.

 

[cplnorton]

I really don't have any doubt the rifle was a Marine Corps M1903 . But I do not think it was a sniper. I know the books state that some standard rifles were converted into snipers when they ran out of National Matches during the war, but this wasn't the case. They never even came close to running out of NM rifles during the war. Very few of the NM's were even converted. The documents also state over and over that the only rifles converted were the NM and Special Target team rifles.

I can't see for sure, but I don't think even the barrel is drilled and tapped for the front Unertl block. I suspect this rifle had some type of "redfield" style mount that was very popular on sporterized rifles.

My guess is this. When the Marines mustered out at the end of WWII, they could easily acquire or buy a standard M1903. I'm suspecting he acquired this M1903 as a standard rifle and at some point in the civilian world sporterized the rifle and mounted a scope.

The case might indeed be legit. I've seen some like this before. I'm going to research his name and see if I can find him and I will report back on that. But I think if the case is legit, he probably had his real sniper rifle in there. But he just used it to house this rifle after he got out.

If you wanted to sell that case I would be interested.

 

[cplnorton]

Actually I didn't see the EGA on the case. I think this case is a lot newer than WWII or Korea when they Used the Unertl Snipers.

I'm not a gear expert by any means, but I think that case is a lot newer than I first thought. I might shoot pics of that case over to Alec Tulkhoff, he wrote the Grunt Gear book. He would be one to weight his opinion on that case. My gut reaction to seeing that EGA is the case is Vietnam or newer. But like I said that is really outside my realm of study. So take anything I say about gear with a grain of salt.

I did research R. Haas in ancestry in the WWII and Korea Muster rolls. I don't see any match of a Marine in the 3rd Marines. There is nothing even anything close. The only R. Haas I can find in WWII was a mechanic in a air squadron.

 

[lonegunman762x51]

I think the only thing that rifle killed was the truth.

It looks like a civilian sporterized bolt and a reblue on the receiver and a stamped A3 trigger guard, the sort of work you would see on a sporter hunting rifle in the 50's. The three threaded holes make me think Redfield Junior scope base.

I once met a guy who owned that Mosin sniper Carlos Hathcock got off that North Vietnamese sniper in the 60's. He was 450 pounds of buffet crushing fury in a red velvet UCMC jacket and using the rifle for a crutch, muzzle down on the concrete floor of the gun show pavilion. He got the gun a few years before from Hathcock's former spotter John Burke in Vegas for " a lot of money" a few years before. Nevermind that Burke died in 1967 in Vietnam. Hell it even had the Century Arms import marks and a repro aluminum scope mount.

$85 bucks was okay for the parts.

 

[Damaged]

I really appreciate all the info. While I'm disappointed the history on this might be fubar, I've always wanted one of these and I'll have a good time building it. Cplnorton, I would also be very interested in what Alec Tulkhoff has to say. I'd like to nail down as much of the history as possible. Pmclaine, what is an SRS check? Thank you, Gentlemen.

 

[pmclaine]

I really appreciate all the info. While I'm disappointed the history on this might be fubar, I've always wanted one of these and I'll have a good time building it. Cplnorton, I would also be very interested in what Alec Tulkhoff has to say. I'd like to nail down as much of the history as possible. Pmclaine, what is an SRS check? Thank you, Gentlemen.

Springfield Research Service.

Fine gentlemen go spend hours in National Archiv s compiling lists of serial numbers and where they were logged.

If you ask at CMP or in general peeps with the books may tell you where or what block of serial numbers the rifle is referenced to.

 

[cplnorton]

I already checked the serial in the SRS, it's not a hit. It's random USMC and Army in that range. I really don't have much doubt the rifle was a Marine rifle. I just don't think it was a sniper.

But honestly you got a good deal on it. You could easily triple or quadruple your money I think. This would be a perfect one to build into a Unertl Sniper clone.

The only real issue is they cut that rear sight base. Those are an absolute bear to replace without a press. I won't even try one and I'm really good working on rifles.

I talked to Alec. He said something I didn't think of. The writing on it looks done with a sharpie. Sharpies didn't come out till 1964. Before that the Marines would use a stencil kit to mark stuff or would literally use paint and a brush.

So he thought it was even newer than Nam. But def post 1964.

But you still got a smoking deal in my opinion.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

FYI, RIA should be Rock Island Arsenal... not Armory.

Arsenal was typically where they built weapons and stored large quantities before distributing to armory's, which were smaller and localized and also often associate with a military unit or militia. However, that was not all true. Springfield Armory was... really an arsenal. Fayetteville Arsenal was much smaller and more of an armory. But I don't think they really made much of an effort to follow the technicalities. And naming may have been like "Soda and pop" kind of a regional thing.

Unless it's one of the companies like the modern "Springfield Armory"... and I think there was a company called RIA that was a reimporter. So you could have a Rock Island Arsenal gun reimported by Rock Island Armory...

They did make '03 Springfields at RIA.

Great thread. Nice rifle, OP!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[sandwarrior]

it's a good thing you bought the rifle and not the story.

It's gonna be a lot of work to restore that as an "original" 1903. I would suggest finding a rifle that is a LOT more complete than that rifle is.

In the meantime, shoot that rifle with no more than standard military rounds. While it's done a lot of shooting, it is a "low-number" RIA. Which lumps it into a group of 1.2 million other rifles you "shouldn't" shoot. I say, just don't shoot it with hot loads.

Those rifles were built early and the heat treatment was based on the color of the metal during heat treatment. Not pyrometers like later 1903's were measured for heat with. (up to 800K SA, and 400K RIA). Not everybody saw colors the same.

99.99% of the early rifles are just fine. But, the 29 or so fatal accidents (and a number more of non-fatals) have come back that the metal was too brittle to handle a hot load. Personally, I think if you shoot loads that are WWI level you won't hurt anything. But, you need to know there is a history behind this. Inspect for cracks every time before you shoot it. And, don't use hot loads. That's 150 gr. at less than 2800 fps using a medium speed single-base powder (4895).

 

[Damaged]

I already checked the serial in the SRS, it's not a hit. It's random USMC and Army in that range. I really don't have much doubt the rifle was a Marine rifle. I just don't think it was a sniper.

But honestly you got a good deal on it. You could easily triple or quadruple your money I think. This would be a perfect one to build into a Unertl Sniper clone.

The only real issue is they cut that rear sight base. Those are an absolute bear to replace without a press. I won't even try one and I'm really good working on rifles.

I talked to Alec. He said something I didn't think of. The writing on it looks done with a sharpie. Sharpies didn't come out till 1964. Before that the Marines would use a stencil kit to mark stuff or would literally use paint and a brush.

So he thought it was even newer than Nam. But def post 1964.

But you still got a smoking deal in my opinion.

Yeah, the Sharpie thing actually crossed my mind before. Military issue would use a stencil.

 

[Damaged]

it's a good thing you bought the rifle and not the story.

It's gonna be a lot of work to restore that as an "original" 1903. I would suggest finding a rifle that is a LOT more complete than that rifle is.

In the meantime, shoot that rifle with no more than standard military rounds. While it's done a lot of shooting, it is a "low-number" RIA. Which lumps it into a group of 1.2 million other rifles you "shouldn't" shoot. I say, just don't shoot it with hot loads.

Those rifles were built early and the heat treatment was based on the color of the metal during heat treatment. Not pyrometers like later 1903's were measured for heat with. (up to 800K SA, and 400K RIA). Not everybody saw colors the same.

99.99% of the early rifles are just fine. But, the 29 or so fatal accidents (and a number more of non-fatals) have come back that the metal was too brittle to handle a hot load. Personally, I think if you shoot loads that are WWI level you won't hurt anything. But, you need to know there is a history behind this. Inspect for cracks every time before you shoot it. And, don't use hot loads. That's 150 gr. at less than 2800 fps using a medium speed single-base powder (4895).

I am aware of the low number concern, but thanks. So, military surplus rounds only, got it. I would prefer to not end up eating this thing.

 

[Random Guy]

Others have discussed the rifle, so I will only mention that I associate those tan canvas rifle cases with the USMC shooting team items from the 1970s-1990s, but others may know a little more, but they are not WWII or Korean war era, and I doubt even Vietnam era either. Below are two example from the 1980s-early 1990s that belonged to the late Pat Rogers (retired as a CW-2 in the mid-1990s). Note the stenciling. That's about all I know re the cases and markings.

 

[pmclaine]

I think the actual writing would be Marine specific.

If it were me Id go to the hardware store by stencils, spray paint, look Pro/Con 4.0/4.0.

Someone else might breakout the Sharpie and their third grade penmanship skills. Must have ate all his crayons.

Caught shit at my last Academy for using stencils.

Issued our PT gear and told to spend the weekend marking our names across the backs of our top gear I did mine with paint and stencils.

Everyone else did the tard method.

That Monday at PT I caught the "Oh you want to be different? You couldnt have told your classmates how to do this so we could actually read the names?"

 

[sandwarrior]

Other have discussed the rifle, so I will only mention that I associate those tan canvas rifle cases with the USMC shooting team items from the 1970s-1990s, but others may know a little more, but they are not WWII or Korean war era, and I doubt even Vietnam era either. Below are two example from the 1980s-early 1990s that belonged to the late Pat Rogers (retired as a CW-2 in the mid-1990s). Note the stenciling. That's about all I know re the cases and markings.

Back in the early '80's our guys carried their sniper rifles in the same cases as we jumped M60's in. I was never around competition rifles in the service, so I don't know what they issued them. But, the sniper rifle case as a padded (rough wool) O.D. green case. What was stenciled on them for specifics I do not remember. I do remember they had the nomenclature on them. Case, weapon M1950.

 

[Random Guy]

I think the M1950 case might still be used from time to time, at least that is what I have read.

 

[sandwarrior]

I think the M1950 case might still be used from time to time, at least that is what I have read.

Do you ever see anyone showing up with these to a competition?

 

[Random Guy]

An M1950? I'm relatively new to CMP competitions, but I suspect the M1950 is too heavy and too bulky. The lighter cases is what I expect at Camp Perry.
I have seen the USMC marked tan cases from the old timers, so I know they were used at least back in the 1980s, but the M1950 is more a collector's item these days....as it was used by US military parachutists, and are often dated - which appeals to the collector community.

 

[pmclaine]

M1950s are the frequently recommended case for carrying Garands on the CMP forums.

I agree with RG regards their bulkiness/weight. The penalties of a TacOps bag without the utility to justify it.

you can use them as a pad in a pinch if you are skinny enough.

Cool collectors accessory but better options for range use.