Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

[Pete Lincoln]

It has come to my attention that EuroOptic have copied our Roedale MB18 Muzzlebrake. ( m18x1)
After supplying EuroOptic with small orders over a couple of years this is a developement that i would not have expected from such a well known company,I have made the owner of EuroOptic aware of my displeasure at this fact.

Imitation is the highest form of flattery and this obviously is an indicator of how effective and popular the Roedale Muzzlebrakes are.

I would just like to point out that the original Roedale Muzzlebrake is the end result of a detailed scientific diploma study carried out by the University of Applied Science, Osnabrück-Germany and that the models currently bieng sold by EuroOptic are a copy of this brake and not the original.

Thankyou

Pete

 

[turbo54]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

Do you have a patent? Might wanna speak to an attorney if you do.

 

[sawman556]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

I'm not sure why you are slamming another company in an open forum when you should have an attorney look into it instead. Seems kind of amateurish to me. Your brake looks similar to the Grizzly Defcon 1 as well. Might as trash them as well.

 

[GSRswapandslow]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

he hasn't trashed anyone, he's merely stating that his is the original...and that the original is NOT available through eurooptic...

 

[JVH86]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

Link: http://www.eurooptic.com/<span style="font-weight: bold">roedale-muzzle-brake</span>-for-sako-trg-or-blaser-tac-2-338-lapua-sig-dark-grey.aspx

Fixed link:

From linked page:

'Product Details:

Eurooptic High Performance Muzzle Brake for Sako TRG'

 

[threetrees]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

uh. when the link-title says roedale but the webpage then says eurooptic ... it does convey a certain message

on the patent argument. i guess there is very little one can do. patents are given per state and correspond to an 'acknowledged monopoly on time for this specific item for that state'. so pete could have a patent for germany, but i would be allowed to copy and sell in austria.

he could have a patent for america, and still anyone anywhere else would be allowed to copy them. the only thing that they would not be allowed: to sell in america (where the patent is active).

 

[Pete Lincoln]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

Not slating anyone, just making folk aware that the brakes bieng sold are not ours but are knockoffs of ours.The sales link is missleading and contains our name. Not sure what the legal issues of that are.

I had hoped that EuroOptic would eventualy become our distributor for North America and take on our whole product range. That seems in doubt now.


Pete

 

[problemchild]

Re: Euro-Optics added to Wall of Shame

Google "Dark metal designs" on ebay. They copy your brake as well.

 

[Advokaten]

Re: Euro-Optics added to Wall of Shame

Pete- had I been in your shoes I would just have shut up and sucked on it,

you of all people calling others out,

well I guess your right are as good as any mans to call them out.

Yes- you do have the biggest pair of B---s in Europe, could be that they are connected to one of the biggest as----s to.
__________________

If one has an issue with the conduct of others affairs, one has ones attorney make out a writ,

I know for a fact that you are most used to having to do so, so what gives in this case.

/Chris

 

[Graham]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

This Thread is already starting to feel like any run-of-the-mill European internet forum.

 

[RADcustom]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

Can you determine if this is a copy or an original?

video

 

[bm11]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RADcustom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can you determine if this is a copy or an original?

video

</div></div>Whoa... I'd like to know as well.

 

[KYS]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

Everyone is copying someone! Might as well get used to it and move on. Let me also add, in this day in age every manufacturer is copied in some form. Look at Glock, TAB Gear, Leupold, etc. Almost every major manufacturer has been copied by a Chinese company or a small company that makes minor changes to claim "it's different".

Do you have a patent in the USA for the brake? If not.... you are shit out of luck on the legal part. Which is an unfortunate fact for the person being copied.

 

[RADcustom]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everyone is copying someone! Might as well get used to it and move on.

Do you have a patent in the USA for the brake? If not.... you are shit out of luck on the legal part. </div></div>

A nice Chinese mentality.

Just because "everyone" is doing it doesn't mean the originator shouldn't get irritated by it.

 

[jasonk]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everyone is copying someone! Might as well get used to it and move on.

Do you have a patent in the USA for the brake? If not.... you are shit out of luck on the legal part. </div></div>

KYS338, you sung a different tune when Midway ripped off Tony's bag, I'm curious how one line of thinking is so different than the other. Patent or not, blatant copying isn't the best solution no matter who the originator is.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Tony is a hell of a person and an industry supporter. To do all that hard work, by hand then have some cheese dick rip you off for nothing is bullshit. </div></div>

 

[JVH86]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

Link posted earlier is no longer valid, new link:

http://www.eurooptic.com/muzzle-brake-for-sako-trg-or-blaser-tac-2-338-lapua-sig-dark-grey.aspx

 

[turbo54]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: threetrees</div><div class="ubbcode-body">uh. when the link-title says roedale but the webpage then says eurooptic ... it does convey a certain message

on the patent argument. i guess there is very little one can do. patents are given per state and correspond to an 'acknowledged monopoly on time for this specific item for that state'. so pete could have a patent for germany, but i would be allowed to copy and sell in austria.

he could have a patent for america, and still anyone anywhere else would be allowed to copy them. the only thing that they would not be allowed: to sell in america (where the patent is active). </div></div>

True. However, when you're talking about rifle accessories, your tarket market is going to be primarly the USA. A USA patent would protect *most* all sales of these muzzlebrakes. Of course, this is assuming it is patentable.

 

[Adam B]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everyone is copying someone! Might as well get used to it and move on.

Do you have a patent in the USA for the brake? If not.... you are shit out of luck on the legal part. </div></div>

KYS338, you sung a different tune when Midway ripped off Tony's bag, I'm curious how one line of thinking is so different than the other. Patent or not, blatant copying isn't the best solution no matter who the originator is.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Tony is a hell of a person and an industry supporter. To do all that hard work, by hand then have some cheese dick rip you off for nothing is bullshit. </div></div> </div></div>

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rX7wtNOkuHo"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rX7wtNOkuHo" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

 

[KYS]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jasonk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Everyone is copying someone! Might as well get used to it and move on.

Do you have a patent in the USA for the brake? If not.... you are shit out of luck on the legal part. </div></div>

KYS338, you sung a different tune when Midway ripped off Tony's bag, I'm curious how one line of thinking is so different than the other. <span style="color: #CC0000">Patent or not, blatant copying isn't the best solution no matter who the originator is.</span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Tony is a hell of a person and an industry supporter. To do all that hard work, by hand then have some cheese dick rip you off for nothing is bullshit. </div></div> </div></div>

Now Jason, are you sure its a 100% physical copy?

Its a sad truth but the fact still lies here. One company does all the ground work, development and building just to have it stolen by some other company. They slightly modify it call it their own. If you cant see that, you're blind. What did Midway do about those rear bags, Jason? Can you look into that and get back to us? What did TAB gear get out of the fuss?

 

[Pete Lincoln]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

With ref to the wonky brake in the video above,it doesn't appear to be one of ours, it has a different finish and doesnt appear to have the insert that we use. If the owner of that particular one is reading, i'd like to take a closer look at it and determine its origin. Its probably time we started lasering or engraving ours so customers can tell the real thing from the copies.


I wasn't wanting to cause a shit storm in any direction, simply to point out that EuroOptic where selling a brake that was a rip off copy of ours and prevent anyone bieng mislead.

I'm aware of several copies of our brake, which is infact pretty flattering, it shows that my thoughts on muzzle brake design are absolutely on the right track and that the scientific research we put into this product was well worth the effort.

Copying goes on all the time and its difficult to avoid it.
When parts are impossible to get due to government restrictions, export embargo's etc then its pretty much understandable. Indeed there is an industry developing in Europe to replace the parts that are difficult to aquire from the USA and else where.

I won't hide my disapointment with EuroOptic but they are certainly not the first company to copy our products and the wont be the last, in the end there is nothing much any of us small manufacturers can do about copying,certainly not across borders and for the reasons stated by others above, The only way to combat it is to stay at the front, constantly bringing new products and additional features. Which is not an easy task when it all comes down to financing, especialy in anti gun europe with bank ethical policies, subcontractor ethical policies, it is a difficult business, a difficult branch and is quite frustrating when you are full of ideas for great products.

Frustrating as it may be,and ethics of copying products could be mauled over all day long,. it comes then is down to each and every customers own choice as to which type of whatever product they end up purchasing. Often the end price plays an important role and one after another so many retail only companies end up having products made in China, which vastly increases profit margins but robs the heart out of the home market manufacturer to a point where they will eventualy all disappear.

whatever..
the link has been changed and the matter is now less misleading.

Pete

 

[KYS]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

Pete,
Do you feel slighted because they filled a market that you could not because you are over seas? Do you feel you are at a disadvantage because your in Germany? I almost see it as you just feel a bit taken advantage of because they were selling your product and then used that to create their own brake off a similar design. These are sincere questions fyi, not trying to be negative.

Not a good situation but like you and I have said, it happens all the time and there is not much you can really do about it given the circumstances. Hope you get it worked out for the better.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pete Lincoln</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The only way to combat it is to stay at the front, constantly bringing new products and additional features.

</div></div>

Exactly. As a customer, I see this as a good thing. The copy becomes available for less money, then a newer and better item at full original price comes out.

We look forward to the new and improved version! Good luck!

 

[KYS]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: joemusso</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This is business. If you don't want you product copied then patent it.




</div></div>

Wonder how much work is involved in getting a patent when your out of country?

 

[abizdafuzz]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: joemusso</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> This is business. If you don't want you product copied then patent it.




</div></div>

Wonder how much work is involved in getting a patent when your out of country? </div></div>

Not to much more than it is anywhere, depending on who you have doing the filling and getting everything ready for you. The US used to be the worst, and had to be done here first or else any other patents in other countries were used against you're new one as prior-art. At a former employer of mine, we would send applications and paper work to Germany, Brazil, China, Japan, and some others along with the US apps and just had a good patent attorney file for us in those countries.

But, it all costs money to do those things...(~$10k in some instances and depending on if its a utility or just a design patent)

 

[threetrees]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

10k for a patent seems to be on the lower end compared to what i hear

 

[poison123]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: joemusso</div><div class="ubbcode-body">even if it is 20000 that is still only 110 units which is a small amount of product when sell world wide. </div></div>

Except its 110 units to just pay for the patent application fee. That doesn't include the cost of R&D, etc.

 

[Pete Lincoln]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

<span style="font-style: italic">
Do you feel slighted because they filled a market that you could not because you are over seas? </span> <span style="font-weight: bold">no we ship hundreds of items directly to the USA. I feel slighted because my trust has been abused</span>



<span style="font-style: italic">Do you feel you are at a disadvantage because your in Germany?</span>
<span style="font-weight: bold">Most certainly am at a disadvantage, high taxes, high costs for everything -personel-accountant-insurances-fuel (diesel 1.49€ per litre)lawer custs for copyright and patent is astronomical-electric-heating-water. ( e.g. my medical insurance costs 500€ per month, i am forced to pay into the state pension insurance system at a cost of 525€ per month) anti gun ethics policy of many many companies ( couriers, machine shops, coating companies etc) anti gun ethics policies of the banks.The amount of burocracy the amount difficulties one encounters when running a small business here is astronomical. to be honest, if i didnt have kids here in school and university i'd be elsewhere</span>

<span style="font-style: italic"> I almost see it as you just feel a bit taken advantage of because they were selling your product and then used that to create their own brake off a similar design. These are sincere questions fyi, not trying to be negative. </span> <span style="font-weight: bold">yes you could say that</span>

<span style="font-style: italic">Not a good situation but like you and I have said, it happens all the time and there is not much you can really do about it given the circumstances. Hope you get it worked out for the better.</span> [/quote] <span style="font-weight: bold">me too. at least our brake as the original is better priced. </span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">anyhow, i think enough has now been said on the subject. ive made my point and stated what i think.
rgds Pete</span>

 

[poison123]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: joemusso</div><div class="ubbcode-body">regardless of that they should have a patent. </div></div>

Have you actually ever filed a patent?

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

You cannot afford to patent things "regardless of the cost" if you are a small to medium business...and the cost of patent lawyers is excessive.

Maybe if Pete had always planned to licence the product and envisaged the demand/success/high volume of sales, patent's might have been a more realistic and viable proposition from the outset.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

However, there are other ways rights can be protected through trade marks and/or copyright....that can be cheaper

 

[poison123]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

Joe, you honestly have no idea about patents. If your not making a 100k+ off the patented product a year(and I'm being really low with that number), a patent isn't worth it.

 

[Pete Lincoln]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy


<span style="font-weight: bold">I wasn't going to post any more on the subject of our brakes, but if we view the patenting issue as a separate issue then it is an interesting subject</span>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy<span style="font-style: italic"></div><div class="ubbcode-body">You cannot afford to patent things regardless of the cost - especially if you are a small to medium business...and the cost of patent lawyers is excessive.</span> <span style="font-weight: bold">That is an absolute fact</span>

<span style="font-style: italic">Maybe if Pete had always planned to licence the product and envisaged the demand/large volume sale, patent's might have been a more realistic proposition.

However, there are other ways rights can be protected through trade marks and/or copyright....that can be cheaper</span> <span style="font-weight: bold">they are hardly worth the paper they are printed on, are easy to circumnavigate and difficult to administer, whilst the actual registration costs are minima, under 500€, the actual associated costs to arrive at the registration situation are expensive, not as high as an actual patent, but high enough, and as we see, they provide no protection. The best you can hope is to stop one company producing a copy, whilst your chasing after that, the copiers mate starts production the day the copier is prevented, waste of resourses and time and effort. </span>
</div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">I always thought there was a code of honour amongst the small to medium busineses who frequent snipershide, not to copy each others kit, but there have been several examples over the last year or so that have me now convinced i was wrong in my assumption.

My thoughts now are, if you can't beat em, maybe you should get the soy sauce out and simply join em... but it does go against the grain. and I will also look once again into the patenting issue rather than just the copyright issue</span>

 

[Tburkes]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

Here's my $0.02

Give me a break! People shouting "if you don't want your product copied then patent it" are out of touch with reality.

It takes several thousand dollars to patent an item. As several patent attorneys have told me, "a patent is only worth the amount you're willing to spend to defend it". I'd have to sell a lot of product to justify the cost of patenting a product and then hiring a lawyer to make a big company stop copying our products. Big companies can hold their heads under water a lot longer than small companies can.

I also don't buy the line that as a small company I should be complimented that my products have been stolen and copied and will encourage me to come out with a much better item next time. Really...that's the incentive I have to improve or develop new products? All it does is make me mad that someone is reverse engineering something that took a lot of time and energy to come up with. Competition is a good thing, theft of a products, whether it's legal because it's not patented or not, is crap.

Please don't come back with the "that's capitalism" line cause that's crap too. Read the definition of capitalism before you come with that to everyone of us who are trying to make a living running a small business. Stealing someones idea and knocking it off to resale has nothing to do with capitalism.

As small shops without the advertising budgets of the large companies, etc. the only way we have of getting the word out that our hard work is being stolen is to make it known on websites. About all we can do is to make it known that our products are being stolen and then depend on the integrity of the shooting community to support us.

Midway didn't do anything for TAB GEAR, I don't know about Red Tac Gear, or Triad Tactical, but they're still selling the knock offs of all three of us.

 

[EuroOptic Ltd.]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

The owner of the company asked me to post this:

Eurooptic would not typically engage in public discussion about situations such as this. However, given the potential impact on our reputation please consider this one time response. Simply stated, the item has no patent or intellectual property protection in the United States.

The model manufactured by Roedale was not caliber stamped and had a pressed bushing, both of which warrant safety concerns. Eurooptic gave significant consideration to manufacturing a brake similar to the one at issue and given the totality of the circumstance decided to do so. To know all of the facts would really end this discussion but publishing them would only fuel the controversy. Regardless, we respect Pete Lincoln as a person and know that this causes him grief. We are sorry for this, but in the context of running a business we stand by our decision. Alex Roy

 

[poison123]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

7K initial
Then lawyer fees which you may or may not be able to recoup. And Patent trials are anything but quick....your'll spend way more than you'll ever make on the product at this scale in just the legal battle over the patent.

 

[turbo54]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

I am surprised how many folks find it unethical to start with someone elses idea, improve/change it, and market it. How do you think we have the things we do today? Guns, cars, computers, plenty of food, potable water etc etc etc etc etc.

Do you think Prometheus should have felt disgraced and wronged that other folks started to also use fire??

If it is important to you to have exclusivity on an idea/process, you patent it. Period. Even then, somebody will take your idea, improve/tweak it and market it.

I really enjoy having all kinds of goodies based on this model, there is always competition for whose got the best overall mousetrap.

 

[nauta]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

People have mentioned the R&D, filing fees, lawyer fees, costs to defend the patent if/when someone copies it and I don't know what all of that would add up to but regardless of what it is, the comments made about only needing to sell 55 or 110 brakes to cover these costs show a big concept is being misunderstood. The business does NOT make $185 (or whatever they charge) profit per unit. Unless we are talking about a one man shop, it is likely that over half of that revenue already goes towards paying the overhead, materials, and labor, taxes, and insurance that Pete mentioned - then he still needs to pay himself a decent wage. If he didn't put his own labor into the business (which I would guess he actually does), my guess is that he might clear $10-20 per unit. That's a lot of brakes you would need to be sure of selling before laying out the money for a patent, especially in multiple countries.

 

[shankster..]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EuroOptic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The owner of the company asked me to post this:

Eurooptic would not typically engage in public discussion about situations such as this. However, given the potential impact on our reputation please consider this one time response. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Simply stated, the item has no patent or intellectual property protection in the United States.</span> </span>

Pete Lincoln as a person and know that this causes him grief. We are sorry for this, but in the context of running a business we stand by our decision. Alex Roy
</div></div>

It would be one thing if you hadn't been selling his item. This is a lame attempt of rationalizing an unsavory (greedy) decision by your company. Here's a concept.. Europtic could have helped Pete make an improved brake to handle your "concerns" instead of going sweatshop/rickshaw on him.

I know how the members here lose their minds over chinese knockoffs. I wouldn't think someone from the U.S.A. and within the industry would think this is a wise business decision. What's your reputation worth? This is just how it looks from my perspective.

 

[19Scout77]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

It does not appear that the OP should get the benefit of sound advice, so it has been deleted.

 

[sawman556]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

Here's my take for what it's worth.

First off, Europe sucks. I would tell you to move to the States where I think you'd have better business opportunities but it seems our country is going in the shitter as well.

Second, it's a muzzle brake. You can say it's all scientific and shit but in the end it's just a muzzle brake that wouldn't be worth getting a patent on. The thing you want to do is make the best damn muzzle brake on the planet with your logo on it. If it is the best, I don't care who copies it, people like me would buy it. For example; if someone copied Seekins scope rings I would still buy Seekins because they are the best and made by a great US company. I would not want a Seekins knock off.

So if your product is the original and the best I wouldn't worry about who copies it. Yes, there are guys that will tell themselves the cheap knock off is same as the original and buy it. However, most guys on this forum spend a lot of money on their rifles and only want the best. We will wait months and years for shit if it's that good.

As far as I can tell is the biggest disadvantage you have is being able to get your product into the US in a timely manner. Fix that and you should be good to go.

 

[Sean the Nailer]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

So, what seems to be being said here, is that the 'real' folks with honor and respect will buy the 'real' product from the honorable makers/vendors.

Whereas, the scumbag-snapperhead purveyors of knock-off crap will primarily be selling to the airsoft crowd. Not the dignified crowd.

I get it now. That still don't make it right, though.

 

[poison123]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

Joe, all I know is Roedale has had a lot of misfortune with his company....I also seem to remember when people got tired of promised dates by him on here and created threads he at least once threaten them with a slander(?) law suit.

And I look at his chassis system looks a lot like the AI system. Granted I believe he's said AI gave him permission to make a "clonish" version for the tikka since they had no interest in doing it.......that particular one doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

[nauta]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

After looking through the OPs website it is interesting that he sells a "cheap and cheerfull copy of a Harris BiPod."
http://www.webshop.roedale.de/index.php?cat=c104_BiPods.html

 

[excess]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nauta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After looking through the OPs website it is interesting that he sells a "cheap and cheerfull copy of a Harris BiPod."
http://www.webshop.roedale.de/index.php?cat=c104_BiPods.html </div></div>

Oops um yeah well about that

Seems its a two way street!

 

[turbo54]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nauta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After looking through the OPs website it is interesting that he sells a "cheap and cheerfull copy of a Harris BiPod."
http://www.webshop.roedale.de/index.php?cat=c104_BiPods.html </div></div>

Wow, you can't fabricate comedy like that! Amusing find!!

 

[beenjammin]

Re: Euro-Optics added to Wall of Shame

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: problemchild</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Google "Dark metal designs" on ebay. They copy your brake as well. </div></div>

Sure do, and for $80 also.
http://stores.ebay.com/DARKMETAL-DESIGN

http://darkmetal-design.blogspot.com/

Im willing to bet that this was the one in the video.
Love how they say HK style. Thats a laugh in itself.

 

[i_rep]

Re: Euro-Optics added to Wall of Shame

Hell Bass Pro does it with every one of their products every day.....Bring in a name brand product...make sure there is a market for it. Then get a replacement built in China or somewhere...put the BPS or Redhead logo on it and BAM....stop ordering the other product.




DON'T FORGET that they are not the only company to do it on a daily basis.

 

[-=boone=-]

Re: Euro-Optics added to Wall of Shame

For myself, I will continue to support the true craftsmen and vendors.

If I wanted a RedTac rear bag copy from Midway Usa I could have easily ordered one today with my order. However I choose to order the real RedTac rear bag from Triad. That's JMO.

 

[Pete Lincoln]

Re: Euro-Optics added to Wall of Shame

1. Everyone knows i had some "issues" a while back due to the death of my Father. Then me caring for my Alzheimers afflicted Mother and then marrital issues ending in divorce.That is the past and its ground that doesn't need covering again.

2. We buy in and sell a few lower priced copied items like the buffalo river bipod. We call it what it is, a cheap and cheerfull copy of the Harris.Personaly i wont use one, but judging by the amount of sales on this item, all of which are in Europe, many simply dont care about the origin of a product they want it cheap. This is a mentality that will be the downfal of Europe in my honest opinion. I dont like it. But the shooting market is full of cheap chineese manufactured items and the that is something that is only going to increase.If we could get ahold of harris bipods in any quantity i would hope that the integrity of customers would show a different trend,

3. Sako bipods we actualy buy in from a company that manufactures them as an alternative product for one of the bigger Beretta dealers, so its basicaly a sub contracted sako knock of instigated by sako them selves as far as i can tell. We did however with the help of that company further develope a model for our Raptor and for the Steyr SSG during the developement work on our Raptor stocks, the developement work up to the 2 prototype Raptor stocks cost me in excess of 20000€.

4. I have no problem at all with some one who takes any of my designs and further developes them, It would be nice if the ask permission and if they would make me an offer as sub contracting manufacture on some items is the only way i can manage to get as much manufactured, if some one is going to copy my kit, i might as well have some beneift and be able to sell it also. Anything i have personaly further developed has had me asking permission of the original designer.

5. I have no problem at all with someone copying a product that is made in another country and that is absolutely impossible to export or procure. Personaly in such cases i would prefer to better or re-enginner a design and improve it rather than simply clone it.

6. How many times can you re invent the wheel is a valid question. But a blaten knock off is another matter.

7. With regards to my dealings with EuroOptic i can only state that they recieved everything they ever ordered and more. Not always on time, but thats not uncommon in this industry. They requested a large order of some parts for which we required a deposit, the deposit never appeared and the parts didn't get made. (Not Muzzlebrakes i might) add and that seems to be where things have broken down. I might also add that if caliber markings had been requested, they would have been added. I have a CNC engraving machine in my workshop that can easily, quickly and efficiently carry out such tasks at short notice. If i am told of a requirement, i can provide, if i am not, then i am not a mind reader.

8. I hope that we all take a pause for thought with regards to the many issues highlighted in this thread.
The sole purpose of my original post was to make it clear that the brake currently bieng sold by EuroOptic was not ours.
It became apparent to me after I recieved some email questions containing photos regarding the brakes sold by EuropOptic. The customer was confused and required information and it became apparent that the item he had did not come from us.


best regards Pete

 

[BasraBoy]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pete Lincoln</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BasraBoy<span style="font-style: italic"></div><div class="ubbcode-body">
However, there are other ways rights can be protected through trade marks and/or copyright....that can be cheaper</span> <span style="font-weight: bold">they are hardly worth the paper they are printed on, are easy to circumnavigate and difficult to administer, whilst the actual registration costs are minima, under 500€, the actual associated costs to arrive at the registration situation are expensive, not as high as an actual patent, but high enough, and as we see, they provide no protection. The best you can hope is to stop one company producing a copy, whilst your chasing after that, the copiers mate starts production the day the copier is prevented, waste of resourses and time and effort. </span>
</div></div> </div></div>

Pete, you are right. In our business we use the Trade Mark and Copyright legislation against (normally Chinese) counterfeiters/fakers who not only directly copy the products but also use our branding, model idents, packaging and manuals etc. in a premeditated attempt to defraud.

But, although registering these is comparitively cheap compared to a patent, the legal costs and challenge of enforcing rights in foreign jurisdictions can be both expensive and complex.

If you have a unique technology/design then the patent is the advisable, albeit expensive, route.

Sadly, honour and honesty are increasingly rare values to find in business.

 

[Advokaten]

Re: Roedale Muzzle Brakes - EuroOptic copy

It´s all a wonder really,

I have owned two DMB made by Roedale,

to the very hand looking at them there was absolutely nothing

separeting them from the gear Alu-tek made here in Sweden and

ever more so, they were so close to other brands as well,

there were many users here not able to keep them separated.

Honor and Honesty,

are those words really compatable with Roedale?

Pete had it been any other, I would have felt sorry for him,

now and with your way of being and trading,

all I can say is "Stiff upperlip dude", you have been had.

/Chris