Role of Neck "Tension"?

Blanman

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
May 29, 2008
332
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Utah
I know the true figure or element would need to be measured as bullet pull, but most of us here describe "neck tension" as something like "0.003". I believe that means that seating the bullet expands the sized neck by that much.

What role does neck tension have in accuracy?

In my [Q@$#%#$%&^&*!!!!] quest for better accuracy, I thought I had done everything by getting a new X-Die, using my old Sinclair tool to deburr flash holes, weigh charges to 0.1 grain, rotate the case at least once in a 2- or 3- phase seating operation, and of course keeping my brass segregated by headstamp and batch.

155 A-Maxes shot to 2.1 MOA again yesterday. This is with FA, LC, and most recently with 1x fired FGMM brass.

I even started slightly uniforming the case necks with an adjustment that cuts about halfway around the neck on most cases.

I even re-resized those cases after neck turning, to ensure that the mandrel was not leaving weak neck tension.

But I just measured and the X-Die expander is leaving me with the necks getting only .0015 greater diameter after sizing the bullets. Even with this potentially light bullet pull, I'm getting more velocity from all reloads that the books and QL say I should be getting...but FGMM 175s were only 2580 or so from the new 22-inch barrel... I'll take a slower load if I can get the accuracy.

Any insights?
 
Re: Role of Neck "Tension"?

Neck tension means nothing if there is crud between the neck and the bullet. Once you have metal on metal contact, increasing tension increases friction which in turn affects combustion. So neck tension is a variable that may affect accuracy.

I did an experiment on Sunday where I tried the same load with light and heavy neck tension. Accuracy did not change, although the point of impact did. So, as long as your neck tension is consistent, you should not see a difference in accuracy.

Increasing neck tension does add a margin of safety for semi auto use as the bullet is less likely to set back during feeding.
 
Re: Role of Neck "Tension"?

You'll get to a point where additional "sqeezing" of the neck means nothing. But that's a story for another day.

If you're looking for better accuracy, check out your TIR (total indicated runout) of your loaded rounds. Measure on/about the end of the full caliber of the projectile. Segregate and cull anything over 0.004" TIR. Shoot both piles and see if you can witness the accuracy difference between both piles. My bet is you will. If you're having problems with run out, it could be a myriad of things. However, best to check TIR on the sized brass/not loaded with NO expander ball, then TIR using the expander ball. See if you can find a difference. If so, and the problems with the expander ball: Lubricate the inside of the necks better or switch to Redding full length S dies...
 
Re: Role of Neck "Tension"?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1SMALLJOHNSON</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You'll get to a point where additional "sqeezing" of the neck means nothing. But that's a story for another day. </div></div>
Yeah, I wasn't even going to get into tensile yield values or whatever the materials engineers call it. Learned about that firsthand with some thin .357 brass waybackwhen.
 
Re: Role of Neck "Tension"?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">NotAGuru had a post about neck tension being one of the single most influential items to accuracy. I will see if I can find it.
Here you go. It is a great read. Shows accuracy of .025" yup under .1 MOA
http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.html </div></div>
Read that a while back. The resistance to seating feels the same for all cases.

I can't test cleaned necks with lube-left-in necks until I get better accuracy. Asked if anyone had done A/B testing of it a few months ago the the silence was deafening.
 
Re: Role of Neck "Tension"?

here is the main point about neck tension copy and pasted.

"Then came the final, critical step — the step requiring a sensitive touch and #400 sandpaper — the “tuning” step. “The secret,” Virgil said, “is to get the neck tension — the grip of the brass on the bullet — exactly the same on every case. You do this by firing the case and then feeling the bullet slide in the case neck as you seat it. Here, a micrometer won’t do you any good. Feel is the whole thing. If any case grips the bullet harder than the others, you take three turns over the sandpaper and fire it again, until you get exactly the same amount of seating pressure. Until the necks were tuned, I didn’t feel I was ready to start tuning the gun.”

Virgil continued: “You can change the powder charge slightly, and it won’t really make any difference, but if you change the bullet seating depth or the grip on the bullet, you’re going to see bad things happen fast.”

After a case has been fired a couple of times, another condition is created in the neck that requires sensitive feel. A tiny groove pressed into the neck by the pressure ring on a flat-base bullet causes the bullet to “snap” into place when it’s seated. Virgil emphasized that feeling the bullet slide down the neck and then snap into place told him everything he needed to know about whether that round was going to go into the group or not.

To sense these critical events, Virgil seated bullets in a Wilson straight-line tool BY HAND — not arbor press. He estimated that the seating pressure on his hand was moderate — perhaps 15 pounds. If seating requires significantly more pressure, the operation damages the bullet’s fragile pressure ring, bulging your groups. If the seating pressure is too light, he said you’re assured a mediocre .250" rifle.

Virgil did not size his case necks. With about .00035" clearance on all sides between the loaded round and chamber neck, the natural spring-back of the brass, in combination with his neck preparation, correctly gripped the bullets. Some other warehouse shooters, including T.J. Jackson, followed the same practice.

Cases, however, did wear out. Virgil estimated that a case would no longer grip and “snap” to his satisfaction when it had been recycled 20 to 25 times. It was then discarded. "
 
Re: Role of Neck "Tension"?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Virgil continued: “You can change the powder charge slightly, and it won’t really make any difference, but if you change the bullet seating depth or the grip on the bullet, you’re going to see bad things happen fast.”
</div></div>

Not if the change is consistent from case to case and you are well within your sweetspot. If your sweetspot is fragile, i.e. where .1 grains will make a difference in accuracy, then neck tension will be a more critical variable, but not in a solid load.
 
Re: Role of Neck "Tension"?

Not looking to jack this thread, but I have a quick question. I read the Houston Warehouse article a few months back and went through it again today. I thought I remember Virgil talking about letting copper build up in his barrel for a certain number of rounds until it effected accuracy, then he would strip it out. He called it "buttering in the barrel" if I recall correctly. Has anyone else read this?
 
Re: Role of Neck "Tension"?

The benchrest forums talk allot about neck tension.
They turn necks for extremely tight fits in the chamber necks.
They have a dummy chamber necks cut for them as a gauge when turning necks.
As a result, they do not have to resize the cases, as they have not reached the elastic limit when firing.

While most benchrest talk is not appropriate for varmint class accuracy, this is REALLY not appropriate.

My quest for 1" 5 shot groups at 100 yards took years.
What took so long were the internet red herring rituals from benchrest guys.
When I focused on the real issues at my level, I got my first 1" group and my first 0.5" group the same day.

Here are some accuracy tips from me:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1) I would do is check the scope mount to receiver screws for tightness. If the mount and rings are separate, the rings must come off the mount. Guys are reluctant to loose their zero, but half the bad groups I have ever seen are caused by this.
2) Go to the range when there is no wind. Those surveyor tape ribbons should be hanging straight down. If there is a 3 mph wind, shoot the 50 yard target, not the 100 yard target. Look on accuweather.com for wind predictions for the range area.
3) The receiver to stock fit should be checked. The mating surfaces can be cleaned with alcohol and a Q tip. Inspect the glass bedding for solidly supporting the action in front of and behind the front action screw. The action screws should be very tight, with the forward screw getting more toque first.
4) The bullet should be entering the bore concentrically, or the spinning from rifling will fling the bullet in random directions at the muzzle.
a) The inside of the neck of the case should be straight and concentric with respect to the taper of the shoulder. This usually means throwing away the expander ball, using Lee collet neck dies, partial neck turning and other reloading techniques.
b) The bullet should touch the lands. This can cause problems: 1) an increase in pressure, so lower the charge a grain. 2) The bullet can get stuck in the lands when an unfired round is extracted, so don't jam it so far into the lands.
c) The bolt face should be square with the bore, so when the case is pushed back, it does not push the rear of the bullet sideways. Sometimes the base of the brass is trued with a Wilson trimmer used with the case holder backwards.
d) The chamber must be cut concentric with the bore. The bore may not be straight. The dialing in of bore in the chambering lathe should use a spud and be test indicated over length and made concentric with the lathe over length with a gimbal and spider.
e) Reducing the twist rate reduces the effect of bullets entering the bore non concentrically. Reduce the choice of barrel twist to the slowest rate twist practical for the bullets to be used.
5) The bore should be free of excessive Copper fouling that could damage the bullet. I use a 20" Nite-Ize fiber optic flashlight accessory and a magnifying glass to get a bore scope view of the 1" of bore at the muzzle. Getting the Copper out may take days of effort, and if the bore fills with Copper again in two groups, get a new barrel.
6) The throat of the barrel should not be shot out. Used 22-250 rifles used on rodents will be good examples of this. There may be a 7mm-08 out there with a shot out throat, but it would be hard to find. It would take many thousands of rounds, which will not happen with a light 7mm-08.
7) The barrel should not warp from heat. Barrels can be stress relieved, and Douglas, Hart, Shilen.... do this. Cheap unrelieved barrels must be shot with waiting for cooling to get good groups. the thinner and longer the barrel the bigger the problem with warping.
8) The barrel can whip around when firing. The accuracy can be improved by: a) shortening the barrel b) getting a fatter barrel c) tuning the handload to the barrel d) turning the barrel to the factory load with a Boss system.
9) The barrel can be bent by the stock from warped stock or expanding hot barrel. This can be fixed by floating the barrel, which is having clearance between the barrel and the stock at all but the 2" near the receiver.
10) The recoil of the rifle moves the rifle before the bullet exits. If the reaction to recoil changes shot to shot, then the point of impact changes shot to shot. The placement in the bags or benchrest must be consistent. The pressure on the shoulder, hands, and bags, must be consistent. Light bullets and heavy rifles make less movement before bullet exit. 223s do not have enough recoil to warrant bedding, but it may be needed if there are stresses from the stock fit that warp the barreled action.
11) The trigger pull can move the rifle. This can be improved by; a) practicing dry firing at the range until the cross hairs stay on the bullseye b) install a hair trigger.
12) The scope power for groups on a target must be high enough. My human eye can resolve about 1 moa. To get a .1 moa group a 10X scope would be needed if everything else were perfect.
13) The range bench can be shaky. This shakiness may not be visible with low power scopes. Concrete is better than wood connected in parallelogram.
14) The case neck should not scratch the bullet. Pull bullets to check. This can be fixed with inside neck chamfering.
15) Bullet length can affect accuracy.
a) Short bullets are lighter bullets with less recoil and can improve accuracy.
b) Long bullets are more likely to get concentric despite other problems and can improve accuracy.
d) Bullets too long for twist rate may go unstable and key hole at long range or low velocity loads or all the time.
16) Dry fire and verify the cross hairs stay on target.
17) Watch out for benchrest techniques that will waste time and money, yet give no measurable improvement at the hunting level; weighing charges, weighing brass, neck turning, tight neck chambers, 6mmPPC, chasing action threads, etc.</div></div>

Notice how I did not suggest obsessing over neck tension, flash holes, turning necks, weighing cases, .1 gr powder increments, or any other anal benchrest rituals?
 
Re: Role of Neck "Tension"?

You say you are getting 2580fps with Federal Match, how does your rifle shoot with that ammo?

You are already doing way more to your brass than I do and I'm getting sub 1/2MOA accuracy out of my rifle when the nut behind the trigger doesn't screw something up............ Just wanting to know if maybe its your rifle/scope/mounts or something else in the equation. When all of these things are strait its pretty easy to find an accurate load.
 
Re: Role of Neck "Tension"?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shadow4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You say you are getting 2580fps with Federal Match, how does your rifle shoot with that ammo?</div></div>
.75 MOA, quite consistently.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shadow4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are already doing way more to your brass than I do and I'm getting sub 1/2MOA accuracy out of my rifle when the nut behind the trigger doesn't screw something up............ Just wanting to know if maybe its your rifle/scope/mounts or something else in the equation. When all of these things are strait its pretty easy to find an accurate load. </div></div>
Yup, and since I'm processing this FEDERAL brass, I'm doing more to the brass than Federal does.

Too late in the day to get speeds on one of my follow-up tests yesterday, but I can report that the first five shots were all over the place (although the .75 MOA up and left CDB shot was right were expected--the rest of the group was just huge), while the second five were right at 1 MOA.

I've never measured runout with this die, but rolling rounds on a smooth surface showed no visible wobbles.
 
Re: Role of Neck "Tension"?

Either my reloads still suk, or my rifle needs 3-5 rounds to settle down. Either one stinketh, one is more correctable than others.