I've been doing some research and looking at the Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle. Does anyone have any experience using this rifle or have one? My second question is what kind of groups are you seeing with the gun and what kind of upgrades are possible with this rifle?
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Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle thoughts and opinions,,,
- Thread starter Tcw015
- Start date
Re: Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle thoughts and opinions,,,
I've shot it and it is okay for what it was designed to do. It is designed as a knock around rifle. You could update it but updates would be cost prohibative on a Ruger. I don't really like the 10 round magazine. It is more in the way than a benefit for a scout ranch style rifle. The laminate stock is tough and handsome but heavy for size and IMHO negates the whole handi little rifle concept. Groups where 1-1/2 to 2 inches. If I was in the market I would probably go with a good lever action for the farm or if you wan't the Hi capicity go with an AR. A good quality AR will be just as accurate and much more customizable. A good lever action will be handi. The ranch rifle is like a design do all ok/do nothing well.
I've shot it and it is okay for what it was designed to do. It is designed as a knock around rifle. You could update it but updates would be cost prohibative on a Ruger. I don't really like the 10 round magazine. It is more in the way than a benefit for a scout ranch style rifle. The laminate stock is tough and handsome but heavy for size and IMHO negates the whole handi little rifle concept. Groups where 1-1/2 to 2 inches. If I was in the market I would probably go with a good lever action for the farm or if you wan't the Hi capicity go with an AR. A good quality AR will be just as accurate and much more customizable. A good lever action will be handi. The ranch rifle is like a design do all ok/do nothing well.
Re: Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle thoughts and opinions,,,
The scout wasn't made for good groups. It was made as an AR alternative.
If you want precision, look elsewhere. If you want a utility gun, I seem to think you could find something better.
The scout wasn't made for good groups. It was made as an AR alternative.
If you want precision, look elsewhere. If you want a utility gun, I seem to think you could find something better.
Re: Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle thoughts and opinions,,,
If you don't like the 10 round mag, Ruger sells 5 rounders in metal or polymer, and 3 round mags in polymer, or you can just use an AICS 5 round mag (they're compatible).
I think this is a cool little gun, and want one, but I wouldn't sink a whole lot of money into upgrading one.
If you don't like the 10 round mag, Ruger sells 5 rounders in metal or polymer, and 3 round mags in polymer, or you can just use an AICS 5 round mag (they're compatible).
I think this is a cool little gun, and want one, but I wouldn't sink a whole lot of money into upgrading one.
Re: Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle thoughts and opinions,,,
I'm sure you've owned and shot so many GSRs since you seem to know so much about them. GSR isn't an AR alternative...it's a light weight scout rifle.
I like mine...I haven't shot it much because I've been concentrating on archery season, but I like the rifle a lot. I bought it as my light deer/boar/bear rifle and for that role I think it's going to be great. I have a Leupold EER 2.5x optic, so I'm not expecting it to be a precision rifle.
For me, where this rifle shines is that it has iron sights if your optics takes a dump on you. It also uses AI/AI clone mags which is important for me since I have another rifle that uses AI/AI clone mags, so I can share mags. I like that the GSR is threaded, so I can pop on a suppressor. I like the 16" barrel since I wanted/needed a light hunting rifle.
The only thing I dislike about my GSR is that I prefer synthetic over laminate stocks. The laminate stock looks nice, but I just like the durability of synthetic much better.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The scout wasn't made for good groups. It was made as an AR alternative.
If you want precision, look elsewhere. If you want a utility gun, I seem to think you could find something better. </div></div>
I'm sure you've owned and shot so many GSRs since you seem to know so much about them. GSR isn't an AR alternative...it's a light weight scout rifle.
I like mine...I haven't shot it much because I've been concentrating on archery season, but I like the rifle a lot. I bought it as my light deer/boar/bear rifle and for that role I think it's going to be great. I have a Leupold EER 2.5x optic, so I'm not expecting it to be a precision rifle.
For me, where this rifle shines is that it has iron sights if your optics takes a dump on you. It also uses AI/AI clone mags which is important for me since I have another rifle that uses AI/AI clone mags, so I can share mags. I like that the GSR is threaded, so I can pop on a suppressor. I like the 16" barrel since I wanted/needed a light hunting rifle.
The only thing I dislike about my GSR is that I prefer synthetic over laminate stocks. The laminate stock looks nice, but I just like the durability of synthetic much better.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The scout wasn't made for good groups. It was made as an AR alternative.
If you want precision, look elsewhere. If you want a utility gun, I seem to think you could find something better. </div></div>
Re: Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle thoughts and opinions,,,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aubie515</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sure you've owned and shot so many GSRs since you seem to know so much about them. GSR isn't an AR alternative...it's a light weight scout rifle.</div></div>
And exactly what is the purpose of a "light weight scout rifle"? That's right, it fills basically the same role as an AR. What does Gunsite train people to use the GSR for?
Give me a break, man.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aubie515</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sure you've owned and shot so many GSRs since you seem to know so much about them. GSR isn't an AR alternative...it's a light weight scout rifle.</div></div>
And exactly what is the purpose of a "light weight scout rifle"? That's right, it fills basically the same role as an AR. What does Gunsite train people to use the GSR for?
Give me a break, man.
Re: Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle thoughts and opinions,,,
The mounting system on the GSR is set up to use a standard eye relief or a extended eye relief scope. So a scout or practical rifle configuration.
In reality I doubt the majority of GSR users work in an operational capacity. More are civilians and buy the rifle to serve as a general purpose carbine. It is a light weight semi-modular weapon ( in that you can mount various sights, muzzle devices). It can serve as a hunting rifle, or a ranch/truck gun. Sure an AR may serve better in a majority of the roles, but some folks prefer a bolt action for hunting.
Now that CDI makes a DBM for the Mauser, one could make a similar rifle at 3/4 the cost, and have access the plethora of aftermarket Mauser parts.
The scout rifle does very well in deep timber, as the forward scope gives enough mag to target your game, and leaves your other eye open to take in the peripheral, giving an enormous field of view; similar to using irons. Then again some folks cant shoot with both eyes open.
The mounting system on the GSR is set up to use a standard eye relief or a extended eye relief scope. So a scout or practical rifle configuration.
In reality I doubt the majority of GSR users work in an operational capacity. More are civilians and buy the rifle to serve as a general purpose carbine. It is a light weight semi-modular weapon ( in that you can mount various sights, muzzle devices). It can serve as a hunting rifle, or a ranch/truck gun. Sure an AR may serve better in a majority of the roles, but some folks prefer a bolt action for hunting.
Now that CDI makes a DBM for the Mauser, one could make a similar rifle at 3/4 the cost, and have access the plethora of aftermarket Mauser parts.
The scout rifle does very well in deep timber, as the forward scope gives enough mag to target your game, and leaves your other eye open to take in the peripheral, giving an enormous field of view; similar to using irons. Then again some folks cant shoot with both eyes open.
Re: Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle thoughts and opinions,,,
After looking into them, I would just get a Ruger M77 Compact and do away with most of the nonsense on those "scout" rifles.
After looking into them, I would just get a Ruger M77 Compact and do away with most of the nonsense on those "scout" rifles.
Re: Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle thoughts and opinions,,,
Not one of Jeff Cooper's better ideas IMHO.
Not one of Jeff Cooper's better ideas IMHO.
Re: Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle thoughts and opinions,,,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tkifer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not one of Jeff Cooper's better ideas IMHO. </div></div>
agreed, nothing beats a semi auto for keeping heads down if nothing else, accuracy reports I have read haven't been that great. the forward mounted scope is a joke IMO especially with all the low power optics now available. its a white elephant of a rifle.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tkifer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not one of Jeff Cooper's better ideas IMHO. </div></div>
agreed, nothing beats a semi auto for keeping heads down if nothing else, accuracy reports I have read haven't been that great. the forward mounted scope is a joke IMO especially with all the low power optics now available. its a white elephant of a rifle.
Re: Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle thoughts and opinions,,,
^^ That is true if the shooter is actually reducing threats, but how many folks are actually doing this on a day to day basis. If they were MIL/LEO, then sure they would have more than a simple AR, but a semi/full auto weapon. For the avg, practical shooter, there is no need to tote a burp gun and chest rig everywhere.
^^ That is true if the shooter is actually reducing threats, but how many folks are actually doing this on a day to day basis. If they were MIL/LEO, then sure they would have more than a simple AR, but a semi/full auto weapon. For the avg, practical shooter, there is no need to tote a burp gun and chest rig everywhere.
Re: Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle thoughts and opinions,,,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: roggom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">^^ That is true if the shooter is actually reducing threats, but how many folks are actually doing this on a day to day basis. If they were MIL/LEO, then sure they would have more than a simple AR, but a semi/full auto weapon. For the avg, practical shooter, there is no need to tote a burp gun and chest rig everywhere. </div></div>
Agreed, sometimes I think people forget that not all firearms need to be designed to fit military/law enforcement purposes.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: roggom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">^^ That is true if the shooter is actually reducing threats, but how many folks are actually doing this on a day to day basis. If they were MIL/LEO, then sure they would have more than a simple AR, but a semi/full auto weapon. For the avg, practical shooter, there is no need to tote a burp gun and chest rig everywhere. </div></div>
Agreed, sometimes I think people forget that not all firearms need to be designed to fit military/law enforcement purposes.
Re: Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle thoughts and opinions,,,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aubie515</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sure you've owned and shot so many GSRs since you seem to know so much about them. GSR isn't an AR alternative...it's a light weight scout rifle.</div></div>
And exactly what is the purpose of a "light weight scout rifle"? That's right, it fills basically the same role as an AR. What does Gunsite train people to use the GSR for?
Give me a break, man. </div></div>
Regardless of how Gunsight trains, the scout rifle was not designed as an AR substitute...
Jeff Cooper's Scout Rifle
Some excerpts...
"Cooper traced the direct ancestors of his Scout back to the Winchester ‘94 carbine so prevalent in the American West and the full-stocked Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbine which was the classic light rifle in Europe and Africa for so many years. “… they were both short, light, handy, and friendly,” said Cooper. “… they were superb for the individual sportsman or explorer faring far afield and depending on the ‘one shot – one kill’ principle if it could be had in the neatest possible package.”
<span style="font-weight: bold">"The Scout is, first and foremost,not a military weapon but a hunting rifle."</span>
"It is not an assault rifle by any definition and was never intended to be anything of the kind. It is not overly specialized, nor is it some mediocre compromise. A lightweight general-purpose rifle is an admirable end of its own, a simple idea which seems difficult for some modern shooters to understand."
I do not own one so I do not have an opinion to give. However, I would say that if you like it and if the concept fits with how you intend to use the rifle, buy one and shoot it and tell us what you think of it...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aubie515</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm sure you've owned and shot so many GSRs since you seem to know so much about them. GSR isn't an AR alternative...it's a light weight scout rifle.</div></div>
And exactly what is the purpose of a "light weight scout rifle"? That's right, it fills basically the same role as an AR. What does Gunsite train people to use the GSR for?
Give me a break, man. </div></div>
Regardless of how Gunsight trains, the scout rifle was not designed as an AR substitute...
Jeff Cooper's Scout Rifle
Some excerpts...
"Cooper traced the direct ancestors of his Scout back to the Winchester ‘94 carbine so prevalent in the American West and the full-stocked Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbine which was the classic light rifle in Europe and Africa for so many years. “… they were both short, light, handy, and friendly,” said Cooper. “… they were superb for the individual sportsman or explorer faring far afield and depending on the ‘one shot – one kill’ principle if it could be had in the neatest possible package.”
<span style="font-weight: bold">"The Scout is, first and foremost,not a military weapon but a hunting rifle."</span>
"It is not an assault rifle by any definition and was never intended to be anything of the kind. It is not overly specialized, nor is it some mediocre compromise. A lightweight general-purpose rifle is an admirable end of its own, a simple idea which seems difficult for some modern shooters to understand."
I do not own one so I do not have an opinion to give. However, I would say that if you like it and if the concept fits with how you intend to use the rifle, buy one and shoot it and tell us what you think of it...
Re: Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle thoughts and opinions,,,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Regardless of how Gunsight trains, the scout rifle was not designed as an AR substitute...</div></div>
The road to hell was paved with good intentions. Obviously, Cooper didn't <span style="font-style: italic">intend</span> it to be an AR substitute, but it is. The article also says it wasn't a compromise either, but we all know it is. It also calls the "scout rifle" a brilliant concept, yet it just doesn't share the popularity.
The Ruger GSR IS an AR substitute, no matter how you try to slice it. Its lightweight, modular, has a DBM, same price range, and is for "general use". My opinion...out.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hlee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Regardless of how Gunsight trains, the scout rifle was not designed as an AR substitute...</div></div>
The road to hell was paved with good intentions. Obviously, Cooper didn't <span style="font-style: italic">intend</span> it to be an AR substitute, but it is. The article also says it wasn't a compromise either, but we all know it is. It also calls the "scout rifle" a brilliant concept, yet it just doesn't share the popularity.
The Ruger GSR IS an AR substitute, no matter how you try to slice it. Its lightweight, modular, has a DBM, same price range, and is for "general use". My opinion...out.
Re: Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle thoughts and opinions,,,
I like mine as well. It shoots plenty well, takes the same magazines as my other rifles. Fit and finish is pretty good too.
Typical groups are a touch over an inch at 100 yards (minimal load development done). Not stellar, but plenty usable for most situations here. If you can get a good deal on it, I say it is a pretty nice choice if it fits what you are looking for.
I wound up with an xs rail on top though. I have never been a fain of the forward scope. I can mount the scope wherever I want that way and still retain iron sights with the XS though.
Usually wind up hunting with mine, and it does that very well. Typically run it suppressed (handles 180 RN subs very well) with a vortex 1-4 on top. Cheek weld is good with a bit of closed cell foam and a stock pack.
I like mine as well. It shoots plenty well, takes the same magazines as my other rifles. Fit and finish is pretty good too.
Typical groups are a touch over an inch at 100 yards (minimal load development done). Not stellar, but plenty usable for most situations here. If you can get a good deal on it, I say it is a pretty nice choice if it fits what you are looking for.
I wound up with an xs rail on top though. I have never been a fain of the forward scope. I can mount the scope wherever I want that way and still retain iron sights with the XS though.
Usually wind up hunting with mine, and it does that very well. Typically run it suppressed (handles 180 RN subs very well) with a vortex 1-4 on top. Cheek weld is good with a bit of closed cell foam and a stock pack.
Re: Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle thoughts and opinions,,,
the scout rifle isn't meant to be an "ar substitute". plain and simple.
i bought mine for a woods and truck gun. has more punch than an ar, takes ai pattern mags, very handy, and you can play with optics 'til your heart's content.
i like levers too, but they aren't exaclty quick to re-load, and i like bolt guns better.
ive been running the irons on mine and will likely end up with the xs rail and a 1-4 mounted traditionally. i have ye to shoot for groups, but i've seen sub moa with handloads from some owners.
it seems that most that have them, like them, and most that don't haven't ever shot one.
the scout rifle isn't meant to be an "ar substitute". plain and simple.
i bought mine for a woods and truck gun. has more punch than an ar, takes ai pattern mags, very handy, and you can play with optics 'til your heart's content.
i like levers too, but they aren't exaclty quick to re-load, and i like bolt guns better.
ive been running the irons on mine and will likely end up with the xs rail and a 1-4 mounted traditionally. i have ye to shoot for groups, but i've seen sub moa with handloads from some owners.
it seems that most that have them, like them, and most that don't haven't ever shot one.
Re: Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle thoughts and opinions,,,
I love my GSR Rifle. It has always been a .75 - 1 moa rifle. However I use it only as a deer hunting rifle. Removed the forward mounting rail, and used the standard dovetail mounts.
I hunt in some pretty dense woods in MN, and it's been an awesome rifle to carry around.
Recoil isn't too bad with this rifle either. Although I wouldn't want to shoot it all day. The rifle being quite light has quite a bit of more recoil than my r700 with a m40 barrel on it.
Seriously though, overall for a $750 dollar rifle, I think it kicks a$$.
I love my GSR Rifle. It has always been a .75 - 1 moa rifle. However I use it only as a deer hunting rifle. Removed the forward mounting rail, and used the standard dovetail mounts.
I hunt in some pretty dense woods in MN, and it's been an awesome rifle to carry around.
Recoil isn't too bad with this rifle either. Although I wouldn't want to shoot it all day. The rifle being quite light has quite a bit of more recoil than my r700 with a m40 barrel on it.
Seriously though, overall for a $750 dollar rifle, I think it kicks a$$.
Re: Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle thoughts and opinions,,,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CohenJ87</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Except the ruger is a bolt action?! </div></div>
The scout rifle was originally conceptualized as a bolt or lever action rifle. Speed of target acquisition was the primary focus, not rate of fire.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CohenJ87</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Except the ruger is a bolt action?! </div></div>
The scout rifle was originally conceptualized as a bolt or lever action rifle. Speed of target acquisition was the primary focus, not rate of fire.
Re: Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle thoughts and opinions,,,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: roggom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The mounting system on the GSR is set up to use a standard eye relief or a extended eye relief scope. So a scout or practical rifle configuration.
In reality I doubt the majority of GSR users work in an operational capacity. More are civilians and buy the rifle to serve as a general purpose carbine. It is a light weight semi-modular weapon ( in that you can mount various sights, muzzle devices). It can serve as a hunting rifle, or a ranch/truck gun. Sure an AR may serve better in a majority of the roles, but some folks prefer a bolt action for hunting.
Now that CDI makes a DBM for the Mauser, one could make a similar rifle at 3/4 the cost, and have access the plethora of aftermarket Mauser parts.
The scout rifle does very well in deep timber, as the forward scope gives enough mag to target your game, and leaves your other eye open to take in the peripheral, giving an enormous field of view; similar to using irons. Then again some folks cant shoot with both eyes open.
</div></div>
Your better off with a good low power 1-4,5,6 scope in the tranditional mounting shooting with both eyes open. The forward mounting scope is a gimmack. It's main utility is it allows the gun to be loaded with stripper clips.But now that we have detachable mags its a moot point.
Pat
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: roggom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The mounting system on the GSR is set up to use a standard eye relief or a extended eye relief scope. So a scout or practical rifle configuration.
In reality I doubt the majority of GSR users work in an operational capacity. More are civilians and buy the rifle to serve as a general purpose carbine. It is a light weight semi-modular weapon ( in that you can mount various sights, muzzle devices). It can serve as a hunting rifle, or a ranch/truck gun. Sure an AR may serve better in a majority of the roles, but some folks prefer a bolt action for hunting.
Now that CDI makes a DBM for the Mauser, one could make a similar rifle at 3/4 the cost, and have access the plethora of aftermarket Mauser parts.
The scout rifle does very well in deep timber, as the forward scope gives enough mag to target your game, and leaves your other eye open to take in the peripheral, giving an enormous field of view; similar to using irons. Then again some folks cant shoot with both eyes open.
</div></div>
Your better off with a good low power 1-4,5,6 scope in the tranditional mounting shooting with both eyes open. The forward mounting scope is a gimmack. It's main utility is it allows the gun to be loaded with stripper clips.But now that we have detachable mags its a moot point.
Pat
Re: Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle thoughts and opinions,,,
Well I can agree to disagree. I have both a scout and practical type rifles one with a 1-4x20 the EER is a 2x20. I can use both just as easy. My total sight picture with the 1-4 is about 40% mag and with the scout is about 10% magnified(percent of total field of view being magnified). The one advantage of the forward scope is that one can keep the rear ghost ring mounted, if they want to transition to irons. No need to fumble around and remove the mount then remount the iron. Also many scout scopes can be mounted very close to the bbl and receiver, allowing for a perfect cheek weld.
I really do not see what the big deal is, some folks like scout rifles (me included), others don't. It is not like I buy a scout rifle then throw all the rest of my firearms in the garbage.
Well I can agree to disagree. I have both a scout and practical type rifles one with a 1-4x20 the EER is a 2x20. I can use both just as easy. My total sight picture with the 1-4 is about 40% mag and with the scout is about 10% magnified(percent of total field of view being magnified). The one advantage of the forward scope is that one can keep the rear ghost ring mounted, if they want to transition to irons. No need to fumble around and remove the mount then remount the iron. Also many scout scopes can be mounted very close to the bbl and receiver, allowing for a perfect cheek weld.
I really do not see what the big deal is, some folks like scout rifles (me included), others don't. It is not like I buy a scout rifle then throw all the rest of my firearms in the garbage.
Re: Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle thoughts and opinions,,,
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: roggom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well I can agree to disagree. I have both a scout and practical type rifles one with a 1-4x20 the EER is a 2x20. I can use both just as easy. My total sight picture with the 1-4 is about 40% mag and with the scout is about 10% magnified(percent of total field of view being magnified). The one advantage of the forward scope is that one can keep the rear ghost ring mounted, if they want to transition to irons. No need to fumble around and remove the mount then remount the iron. Also many scout scopes can be mounted very close to the bbl and receiver, allowing for a perfect cheek weld.
I really do not see what the big deal is, some folks like scout rifles (me included), others don't. It is not like I buy a scout rifle then throw all the rest of my firearms in the garbage. </div></div>
Not a big deal different people like different things. However I just find the whole concept kind of questionable and of little value. However thats just my opinion.
Pat
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: roggom</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well I can agree to disagree. I have both a scout and practical type rifles one with a 1-4x20 the EER is a 2x20. I can use both just as easy. My total sight picture with the 1-4 is about 40% mag and with the scout is about 10% magnified(percent of total field of view being magnified). The one advantage of the forward scope is that one can keep the rear ghost ring mounted, if they want to transition to irons. No need to fumble around and remove the mount then remount the iron. Also many scout scopes can be mounted very close to the bbl and receiver, allowing for a perfect cheek weld.
I really do not see what the big deal is, some folks like scout rifles (me included), others don't. It is not like I buy a scout rifle then throw all the rest of my firearms in the garbage. </div></div>
Not a big deal different people like different things. However I just find the whole concept kind of questionable and of little value. However thats just my opinion.
Pat
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