Rifle Scopes S&B 3-20 or 5-25 ? or something else maybe

[cramey74]

Well I'm going to scratch my itch for some better than good glass and maybe try myself a new S&B. I think I want a 5-25 or 3-20 with P4F ret DT/MTC but can't make up my mind. I have had a few USO's and a Nightforce F-1 Mil-Spec. Before I drop $3500.00+ on this project I would like to know what you guys think. The rifle is my trusty AIAE MKIII 24". Is the 5-25 going to be physically too big? I know the AI mount which I really like needs to be machined to accept it. Is there something else manufacture wise I need to look at. I just want something rock solid with awesome glass. Thanks for any input.


Chris R.

 

[Quickdraw40]

Steiner! Save yourself $500 ;-)

 

[KUSA]

If I were going the S&B route I would definitely get the MSR reticle. Read this Schmidt Bender MSR special reticle - FinnAccuracy . I am curious as to why you chose to pursue S&B. Is it their reputation for ultimate reliability and lifetime warranty or is is just the great glass they offer?

 

[Lowlight]

Both the 3-20x and 5-25x are roughly the same size, only a fraction of a inch different.

The way I have taken to choosing is by mission. Are you more of a target shooter, prone, etc, or are you more dynamic in your shooting. Competitions, Hunting, field type, that helps narrow it down as these scopes are very close to each other in size, weight and price. The main difference is magnification and use.

The 3-20x is a better dynamic scope, the 5-25x more inline with target shooting.

Here is the 3-20x on my AE ... either works, so it's a hair splitting decision, you just need to know what your ultimate goal is.

<iframe src="https://www.facebook.com/video/embed?video_id=587766614580199" width="1280" height="720" frameborder="0"></iframe>

If you are a magnification guy, meaning you find you always shoot on max power the 5-25x is the scope for you. If dial down for conditions, use and mission, then pick the 3-20x.

 

[cramey74]

Well I shoot mostly prone, I do find myself using my SN3 3.2-17 on max power most of the time and wishing for more magnification. I'm drawn towards the S&B for several reasons glass quality, reputation, warranty, future resale value etc... It just seems like it is the right choice for an AI don't ask me why. Thanks for the replies and keep them coming.

Chris R

 

[supratt96]

The Steiner 5x25 gives up nothing to the S&B (IMHO) and I was able to pick one up for $2700. S&B makes a great scope, but the competition has caught up and is producing scopes just as good for quite a bit less $$$.

Check one out before you drink the S&B coolaid.

 

[Captain Kirk]

Both are great scopes. I found the 3-20 doesn't have nearly as much of the "tunnel" effect on the lowest magnifications, where the 5-25 does, and its very noticeable below 7.5x and down. Shooting out of a helicopter a few months ago, I found 5x was still too high and it looked like you were looking through a straw, the 3x would have been a better choice. As Frank mentioned, it depends on what your application is, but its nearly a wash as far as size and weight goes. If your a prone target guy, a 5-25 with P4f is perfect.

Kirk R

 

[Pleistarchus]

+1 on Steiner. I believe Cameraland still has open box specials for 2500 for the MSR. Just received mine last week and all I can say is it's worth taking a look.

 

[Deisel]

I own multiple S&B scopes and have them on AIs. If you do go that route, I would recommend the Spuhr mounts. They fit directly on the AI dovetail and don't require any machining.

 

[ccollier]

I've had both and I just like the 5-25 DT better. The glass is great in both, but I really enjoy the extra power shooting off the bench. You can't go wrong with either one.

Shane

 

[CCCP2k]

I do not have 3-20 (yet) but one important difference (at least for me) is the fact that 5-25 can focus perfectly down to 10 meters on highest magnification!!!
In 3-20 according to specs paralax adjustments start at 25m. Now, why do you need 25x @ 10 meters? Dry firing in your basement. Print 1 - 1.5 mm boxes or circles and have fun. You would be able to see your hold and trigger pull perfectly as if you were shooting 1000 m.
3-20 in my opinion is more versatile scope with better field of view. 5-25 as far as FOV goes is actually 7-25. From 7 to 5 the image starts shrinking (see tunneling effect on this forum). So you will not have 5x change in field of view if you go down from 25 to 5x.
You should appreciate additional magnification on long range though.
I would say have them both but if you have to choose, then you are on your own. Pick what is more important for you.

 

[CCCP2k]

Both are great scopes. I found the 3-20 doesn't have nearly as much of the "tunnel" effect on the lowest magnifications, where the 5-25 does, and its very noticeable below 7.5x and down. Shooting out of a helicopter a few months ago, I found 5x was still too high and it looked like you were looking through a straw, the 3x would have been a better choice. As Frank mentioned, it depends on what your application is, but its nearly a wash as far as size and weight goes. If your a prone target guy, a 5-25 with P4f is perfect.

Kirk R

Does 3-20 "tunnel" as well? At which magnification does it start? From its specs it should not be any tunneling at all.

 

[CCCP2k]

Take a look at SPUHR mount for AI
Ideal Scope Mount System

I put one on my SAKO TRG and love it

 

[gyr2]

If you are worried about weight, take a look at the new 5-20 compact SB.
Warranty seems to be 10 years instead of the 2 for the PMII line.

 

[cramey74]

Not really worried about weight so much as quality. Want something "great" not just good enough. I have no complaints about the scope that I already have, just want to try the next tier. It seems S&B, Kahles, Steiner are all in a fairly close race right now. I am going to give myself till Tuesday or Wednesday to figure it out. What about Premier are they still a contender?

Chris R.

 

[Lowlight]

If you are worried about weight, take a look at the new 5-20 compact SB.
Warranty seems to be 10 years instead of the 2 for the PMII line.

its not out yet and retail was listed over $5k at Shot. I don't think it is really a consideration.

 

[Sigma05]

There's also the Zeiss/Hensoldt 3.5-26 that's very compact. What I don't know if it has been commercialized yet.


"Ex Umbris Venimus"

 

[cramey74]

its not out yet and retail was listed over $5k at Shot. I don't think it is really a consideration.

Yeah 5K is a little out of my budget. For 5K that thing had better have tits or tires.

 

[Lowlight]

There's also the Zeiss/Hensoldt 3.5-26 that's very compact. What I don't know if it has been commercialized yet.


"Ex Umbris Venimus"

which also costs over $5k, almost $6k. Commercial market is pretty limited at these prices, your talking the price of a high end precision rifle, AI, Barrett, DTA with conversion kit, etc. There are many more cost effective options out here that aren't working with inflated government pricing.

 

[paramil]

If I was to do it again, and could find a 3-20 with a Gen II reticle (I am picky about reticules) I would get the 3-20 instead of the 5-25. I am a dynamic shooter and would like to have the lower magnification for tracking at closer ranges. Heck I would still trade one straight up if given the opportunity. On the same note the 5-25 is still an awesome piece of kit.

 

[Lowlight]

Get the Klein Reticle, it pre-dates the Gen 2 Reticle ( which Premier referenced in their US patent, Klein is UK) it's actually better as the dots are more pronounced, the crosshairs is a bit thinner.

3-20x with a Klein is easy to get.

 

[W54/XM-388]

You can usually pickup Used good condition S&B 5-25x56 scope in the $2600+ range, for that price it's almost a no brainer unless you have to have new. Look around on the for sale page here as well as on a few other web sites & make offers and you can come up with a pretty good deal.

As far as I am concerned the S&B 5-25x56 is scope by which all others are judged.

Also if you get a good deal on one and decide you don't want it, you can usually flip it pretty easily for what you have into it & move on.

 

[cramey74]

I am leaning Schmidt & Bender, I know I can save a little buying something else but I am still drawn to it.

 

[Jerry R]

its not out yet and retail was listed over $5k at Shot. I don't think it is really a consideration.

Correction, retail on the 5-20x50 is $3,499. You're thinking of the 3-27x56, retail on that is $5,599.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

If I were going the S&B route I would definitely get the MSR reticle. Read this Schmidt Bender MSR special reticle - FinnAccuracy . I am curious as to why you chose to pursue S&B. Is it their reputation for ultimate reliability and lifetime warranty or is is just the great glass they offer?

I just got the Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56 with everything. The MSR reticle was a big feature in my choosing to with this scope. The video KUSA posted was what sold me. It is extremely useful in many ways. You have quick ranging or accurate ranging, the best of both worlds.

But it is not just the optics and the reticle. The turrets are also very nice and very useful for my competitions. I want something that is easy to use, can use at night, and is very reliable. There is no worse feeling then getting out to the range only to find your scope is broken. If you are in critical situations, it is just not worth it.

The clarity and contrast is amazing. I was able to render images at lower light and at further distances. When compared to my Nightforce NXS, I found myself not regretting my purchase.

And as for the tunneling, big deal. You will rarely use a scope below 10X anyways. I never used my Nightforce at 5.5x, ever. Most of my competitions were shot at full 22x power.

So with the Schmidt and Bender, you can do more, see more, and hopefully, shoot more.

 

[blair]

I just got the Schmidt and Bender 5-25x56 with everything. The MSR reticle was a big feature in my choosing to with this scope. The video KUSA posted was what sold me. It is extremely useful in many ways. You have quick ranging or accurate ranging, the best of both worlds.

But it is not just the optics and the reticle. The turrets are also very nice and very useful for my competitions. I want something that is easy to use, can use at night, and is very reliable. There is no worse feeling then getting out to the range only to find your scope is broken. If you are in critical situations, it is just not worth it.

The clarity and contrast is amazing. I was able to render images at lower light and at further distances. When compared to my Nightforce NXS, I found myself not regretting my purchase.

And as for the tunneling, big deal. You will rarely use a scope below 10X anyways. I never used my Nightforce at 5.5x, ever. Most of my competitions were shot at full 22x power.

So with the Schmidt and Bender, you can do more, see more, and hopefully, shoot more.

I have several S&B 5x25's, and they have been terrific. Take a look at the H2CMR - my favorite reticle. Only once did I have a minor issue and their customer service was OUTSTANDING. Thank you, Jerry! My US Optics have also been very good. I just recently purchased a 5x25 Premier. The glass seems excellent, but I haven't taken it to the range yet.

 

[JB02]

Unless you think that you will need to dial down often for the wider FOV I would go with the 5-25. It is a dream of a scope. Also, I would check the FS section before buying one new because you can often get a really good deal; downside is you may have to make a couple of small compromises (reticle, color, etc). If you want one brand new, make sure it is what you want and make no compromises.

 

[cramey74]

Thanks for the replies.

 

[jbell]

I am a PMII fan as well. There are some very good scopes being offered today that have great optics and are very well built, but for my eyes none have optics as good as the Bender. I also am liking my new H2CMR as well. The P4F is nice as is the Klein and the MSR but for me the 0.2 mil wind holds off center are sweet...

 

[beenjammin]

I sold my S&B 3-20 p4F to buy the 5-25 with MSR. For me its the perfect scope and the perfect reticle. I also like the double turn turrets better then the 3-20s overly complicated locking turrets. The original double turn is the way to go. I am interested in the new Khales 624i with their brand new MSR reticle. Might wanna hold out for it?

 

[John1911.com]

I am an avid S&B Fan. I run a PM-II on my main rifle. I just picked up two Steiner 5-25 optics at smoking good prices. One in GEN 2 and the second in MSR(which is a new reticle for me). I am still playing with the Steiner but they seem quite nice. The glass is just as good as my S&Bs. And truthfully, I have nowhere near $3000+ MSRP asking price on them. if I did, I would have bought S&B's since it's a known quantity. Just a data point. We'll see how the Steiner holds up over time. Should be fine, but you don't know until you know.

For my uses though, I think 5x starting is a bit high. I like the 3-20 concept S&B is running and offers the user tons more options on application: Hunting, Matches, Run & Gun, Position Shooting. I will also agree with Lowlight that the GEN 2 MilDOT is a bit thick. Especially at distances. If the Klein reticle (Not familiar) is as he says, with thinner crosshairs, that's a winner.

TTR

 

[Sako man]

Not really worried about weight so much as quality. Want something "great" not just good enough. I have no complaints about the scope that I already have, just want to try the next tier. It seems S&B, Kahles, Steiner are all in a fairly close race right now. I am going to give myself till Tuesday or Wednesday to figure it out. What about Premier are they still a contender?

Chris R.

The Premier will get you equal glass, MTC, and a very nice reticle. I have the Premier and the Steiner. As well used the 25x SnB. They are all so equal that it might take hard core sand box use to sort out a winner. That said the SnB might win that one? But for me all have excellent glass, resolution, free of chromatic aberration, and good color. Snb little on the yellow side and premier more on the blue, as it seemed?

 

[scudzuki]

The S&B 5-25 is a 7.5-25 in reality.
For the amount of money it takes to get into an S&B, there should be no tunneling.

Get a Steiner 5-25x56 with MSR reticle but wait until they release the new reticle with the thinner center stadia.

Joe

 

[cramey74]

I think I've got it narrowed down to the combo deal that Mile High has with the 3-20 P4F DT/CCW + Spuhr mount. I am building a Badger 2013 on a AX chassis soon and might try a Steiner or Khales on it. I Really appreciate all the input you guys have given me.

Thanks Chris R.

 

[Lowlight]

The Steiner's are really nice.

The US side is based here in Colorado so a lot of people use them locally and I have not seen a single problem with one yet. Each monthly class I teach there is always a couple on the line with zero issues to date.

To me they are directly on par with the Premier (similar roots) and can hold their own against the S&B... admittedly the S&B 5-25x is the standard by which all scopes are judged, it's hard to find any scope to "rival" one but there are some that can keep pace and when you consider the cost savings that appeals to a lot of people. If you're a casual shooter you be hard pressed to see a difference.

The 3-15x Steiner & 5-25x are my two favorites of the bunch, and really think they did an outstanding on them.

 

[Flyingbullseye]

The Steiner's are really nice.

The US side is based here in Colorado so a lot of people use them locally and I have not seen a single problem with one yet. Each monthly class I teach there is always a couple on the line with zero issues to date.

To me they are directly on par with the Premier (similar roots) and can hold their own against the S&B... admittedly the S&B 5-25x is the standard by which all scopes are judged, it's hard to find any scope to "rival" one but there are some that can keep pace and when you consider the cost savings that appeals to a lot of people. If you're a casual shooter you be hard pressed to see a difference.

The 3-15x Steiner & 5-25x are my two favorites of the bunch, and really think they did an outstanding on them.

^^^^This^^^^^

If you're dead set on going 5-25 pick up a Steiner w/MSR and save yourself some coin. Same league, lower cost and no tunneling if you want/need to dial down. What's not to like?

 

[cramey74]

Well hell.. I shot my mouth off and bought a tan 5-25 right off the hide. Damn hide costing me money haha.

 

[JB02]

Well hell.. I shot my mouth off and bought a tan 5-25 right off the hide. Damn hide costing me money haha.

Well done! I'm sure you'll enjoy it!

 

[DroidSniper]

FWIW and I know I am late to the party but I don't know that I have ever taken a shot without my NSX being at 22 power. Even at 100 Yards. Man I'd love a SB one day, I'm sure you wont regret your choice. At the end of the day when you start throwing out names like NighForce, US Optics, Schmidt and Bender ETC there isn't a "wrong" choice. You just go from Kick ass to uber super kick ass all depending on your bank account/cc limit. I Chose NF because it is tough as nails and it was what I could afford. If I could have afforded the S&B I would have gotten it. Though I do love the EREK Knobs on US Optics stuff.

 

[cramey74]

FWIW and I know I am late to the party but I don't know that I have ever taken a shot without my NSX being at 22 power. Even at 100 Yards. Man I'd love a SB one day, I'm sure you wont regret your choice. At the end of the day when you start throwing out names like NighForce, US Optics, Schmidt and Bender ETC there isn't a "wrong" choice. You just go from Kick ass to uber super kick ass all depending on your bank account/cc limit. I Chose NF because it is tough as nails and it was what I could afford. If I could have afforded the S&B I would have gotten it. Though I do love the EREK Knobs on US Optics stuff.

Yeah Nightforce has a good thing going. I really liked my F1 Mil-Spec, and I don't really need anything better than what I have. I just listen to the voices in my head too much. It is a sickness I might need checked out.

 

[Shooting 4066]

I understand it is a hypothetical question still, but does the Nightforce BEAST look like it might be something to consider in this caliber or glass?

 

[Sako man]

The Steiner's are really nice.

The US side is based here in Colorado so a lot of people use them locally and I have not seen a single problem with one yet. Each monthly class I teach there is always a couple on the line with zero issues to date.

To me they are directly on par with the Premier (similar roots) and can hold their own against the S&B... admittedly the S&B 5-25x is the standard by which all scopes are judged, it's hard to find any scope to "rival" one but there are some that can keep pace and when you consider the cost savings that appeals to a lot of people. If you're a casual shooter you be hard pressed to see a difference.

The 3-15x Steiner & 5-25x are my two favorites of the bunch, and really think they did an outstanding on them.

That was a question I had on another thread. Both my Steiner and Premier look like the same tube body and dimensions so wondering if they share parts. I think the Premier has some German parts.

Lowlight. What are your thoughts on the Khales, I remember you saying you were going to visit them in Austria.

Thanks

 

[Sako man]

The Steiner's are really nice.

The US side is based here in Colorado so a lot of people use them locally and I have not seen a single problem with one yet. Each monthly class I teach there is always a couple on the line with zero issues to date.

To me they are directly on par with the Premier (similar roots) and can hold their own against the S&B... admittedly the S&B 5-25x is the standard by which all scopes are judged, it's hard to find any scope to "rival" one but there are some that can keep pace and when you consider the cost savings that appeals to a lot of people. If you're a casual shooter you be hard pressed to see a difference.

The 3-15x Steiner & 5-25x are my two favorites of the bunch, and really think they did an outstanding on them.

That was a question I had on another thread. Both my Steiner and Premier look like the same tube body and dimensions so wondering if they share parts. I think the Premier has some German parts.

Lowlight. What are your thoughts on the Khales, I remember you saying you were going to visit them in Austria.

Thanks

 

[Lowlight]

The Premier & Steiner share a common design team. Premiers were designed in Germany by Optronika who is the team that left S&B. Optronika can be contracted to help design your scope if one were so inclined. The Premier was not an American Made creation...

The Kahles are awesome, and I have the latest GEN 2 w/ MSR-K reticle here now. Highly recommend the Kahles as their pricing falls between Steiner & S&B. You save a few dollars and give up nothing, especially with the GEN 2 version. I have posted some initial through the scope pix on here already.

 

[cramey74]

Now I need a mount for this new beast. Will the Spuhr 1.18" mount clear the 56mm bell on my AE MKIII?

 

[John1911.com]

The Premier & Steiner share a common design team. Premiers were designed in Germany by Optronika who is the team that left S&B. Optronika can be contracted to help design your scope if one were so inclined. The Premier was not an American Made creation...

The Kahles are awesome, and I have the latest GEN 2 w/ MSR-K reticle here now. Highly recommend the Kahles as their pricing falls between Steiner & S&B. You save a few dollars and give up nothing, especially with the GEN 2 version. I have posted some initial through the scope pix on here already.

Lowlight,

Don't want to get too far out into the weeds but you bringing up the Kahles brand reminds me of a theory I had at 2012 SHOT. It would seem that the American scope consumer has really decided that spending money on quality glass is the norm. Especially in the precision market. I was wondering when the other German companies would switch gears and enter the US tactical market?

Steiner seems to be dipping their toe in the water. Zeiss has brought their Hensoldt military brand. Kahles, a VERY highly regarded brand in Europe, seems to be coming over. I'm excited to see how the market shakes out with prices and features?

Have any of the German makers expressed their thoughts about what they want to do in the US market?

Marky

 

[CCCP2k]

Now I need a mount for this new beast. Will the Spuhr 1.18" mount clear the 56mm bell on my AE MKIII?

I had no problem on SAKO TRG-42. I do not think you will have any either. Looks like Shuhr designed his base specifically for S&Bs. Even cant angle (13 mils) matches perfectly to SAKO TRG-42 in .338 LM (I did not lose a single click for 300gr Lapua Scenar bullet) You can always ask Håkan Spuhr. He will be glad to assist you.

 

[ssg08]

The Premier & Steiner share a common design team. Premiers were designed in Germany by Optronika who is the team that left S&B. Optronika can be contracted to help design your scope if one were so inclined. The Premier was not an American Made creation...

The Kahles are awesome, and I have the latest GEN 2 w/ MSR-K reticle here now. Highly recommend the Kahles as their pricing falls between Steiner & S&B. You save a few dollars and give up nothing, especially with the GEN 2 version. I have posted some initial through the scope pix on here already.

I have the Kahles as well. Great scope! I do like the parallax knob but find it hard to adjust for parallax on these scopes. When it is parallax free it does not offer crisp images. Maybe I'm too picky but it didn't happen to me in other high end scopes...

 

[Foweis]

Does anyone no where Lowlights latest picture of the kahles msr through the scope pic is?

 

[HH4]

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...97883-kahles-gen-2-w-msr-2-arrived-today.html