Rifle Scopes S&B 3-20 PMII vs March 3-24

[treillw]

S&B 3-20x50 w/ P4Fine MOA reticle vs March 3-24x52 with FMA-1 reticle

Which scope would you choose and why?

Scope will be put on a 8-9lb 300 win mag used for hunting and steel.

I'm looking to get information about durability, tracking, return to zero, resale, as well as anything else you're willing to offer.

Thanks!

 

[lennyo3034]

S&B ultra short or regular 3-20? If it's the full size, there is a significant difference between the two.

 

[treillw]

I was thinking full size to get away from the tunneling of the ultra short, but I may be convinced otherwise.

 

[Covertnoob5]

Ultra Short has no tunneling.

 

[st1650]

I've been debating the same purchase. It's down to the TT315p, US 3-20 and the March 3-24x52

Im leaning towards the march because it'll go on my dta Covert and I like their tool less zero stop adjustments, reticle and weight. Haven't made my final decision, waiting to see the new 2017 SB reticle and the multi turn II.

 

[treillw]

Ultra Short has no tunneling.

Really? I thought that tunneling was one of the major complaints of the ultra shorts?

 

[treillw]

I've been debating the same purchase. It's down to the TT315p, US 3-20 and the March 3-24x52

Im leaning towards the march because it'll go on my dta Covert and I like their tool less zero stop adjustments, reticle and weight. Haven't made my final decision, waiting to see the new 2017 SB reticle and the multi turn II.

What is the SB reticle and multi turn ii you speak of? Haven't been following the S&B updates recently. Thanks!

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

Really? I thought that tunneling was one of the major complaints of the ultra shorts?

Negatory......................

 

[treillw]

Really? I thought that tunneling was one of the major complaints of the ultra shorts?

Negatory......................

Is this something that they fixed? If you google schmidt and bender tunneling, there are multiple people talking about it. Example: http://opticsthoughts.com/?page_id=1254

 

[Covertnoob5]

Tunneling is only on the pmii 5-25 model. It tunnels from 5x-7x


Better to have it and not need it, than to not have it and say oh shit.....

 

[treillw]

Why do the Schmidts have capped windage turrets? I guess just to keep it from getting bumped. Do people ever run them without the cap?

 

[treillw]

Anybody have or know where to find pictures of the P4 Fine MOA reticle?

 

[akg102]

I've owned both the March 3-24x52 and the S&B 3-20 Ultrashort. Overall, I preferred the Ultrashort to the March -- but the price and weight difference would be my main deciding factor.

 

[lash]

Is this something that they fixed? If you google schmidt and bender tunneling, there are multiple people talking about it. Example: http://opticsthoughts.com/?page_id=1254

Nobody is talking about S&B tunneling on the 3-20 ultra short. That article you linked, while an excellent article by respected optics specialist Ilya, was specifically all about 5-25 scopes and was written in 2013, long before anyone had ever heard of or thought of the 3-20 ultra-short.

 

[treillw]

I've owned both the March 3-24x52 and the S&B 3-20 Ultrashort. Overall, I preferred the Ultrashort to the March -- but the price and weight difference would be my main deciding factor.

Did you have any issues with the March? A lot of people complain about them, others say they are fine. It's hard to know what to believe.

 

[treillw]

Nobody is talking about S&B tunneling on the 3-20 ultra short. That article you linked, while an excellent article by respected optics specialist Ilya, was specifically all about 5-25 scopes and was written in 2013, long before anyone had ever heard of or thought of the 3-20 ultra-short.

Thank you. I thought it was a problem with all the ultra shorts - I haven't followed the subject too closely.

 

[akg102]

Did you have any issues with the March? A lot of people complain about them, others say they are fine. It's hard to know what to believe.

No problems at all with the March -- in fact, for the weight, I think it's tough to beat. I really liked the turrets and optical resolution. Parallax adjustment can be a little finicky, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[Covertnoob5]

There was a thread on these 2 exact scopes a little while back that may offer additional information.
I had a march 3-24x52 and I have a 5-20 ultra short. I do prefer the FML 1 reticle to anything s&b offers, but I like the overall build quality better on the Schmidt. Illumination button was a bit sensitive and IMO too easy to push on the march.
In regards to the 3-20 ultra short, while it is nice I don't really consider it an "ultra short" by other scope standards. What I mean is the Bushnell DMR2 is basically the same size and mag range. So to me the 3-20 is only an ultra short by Schmidt standards. The 5-20 on the other hand to me is the true ultra short. Nothing else on the market at that size and features.


Better to have it and not need it, than to not have it and say oh shit.....

 

[treillw]

There was a thread on these 2 exact scopes a little while back that may offer additional information.

Thanks for the heads up. I believe this is it for anybody else looking for it:
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...0637-s-b-3-20x50-ultra-short-or-march-3-24x52

 

[Lowlight]

The Ultra Shorts are awesome, if you don't need the 3x, I like the 5-20x a bit better, but then you need the Spuhr mount for it.

But I have been running the 3-20x Ultra Short with P4F in it... some guys in Alaska this past week shooting it in the rain found the crosshair a bit thin, but I always recommending turning on the illumination if you want to see it better.

 

[Hairy Biker]

I will say March 3 - 24 x 52mm because I own one.

Durability and return to zero - spot on.

Resale value - don't care as no intention to sell.

Get the optional focus wheel, it makes a big difference. However for hunting I never run above 6 power. For steel 24x is fine but 20 power gives you a better "feel" for your targets/target acquisition.

Depends on what you want to spend really.

 

[Flyingbullseye]

Lowlight or anyone else that owns the ultra short 3-20. How are the turrets compared to the standard model and with the extra elevation on the US turrets any issue making quick adjustments without misreading how much you dialed?

 

[treillw]

The Ultra Shorts are awesome, if you don't need the 3x, I like the 5-20x a bit better, but then you need the Spuhr mount for it.

Thanks for the info. You wouldn't happen to have any pics of the reticle through the scope, would you? I'm interested in seeing the difference on 3x and 20x.

 

[Dag34]

Lowlight or anyone else that owns the ultra short 3-20. How are the turrets compared to the standard model and with the extra elevation on the US turrets any issue making quick adjustments without misreading how much you dialed?

The turrets have a lower profile but the knurling allows a solid purchase. The spacing between 1/10th increments is about the same as other S&B turrets.....so it is fairly tight. The MTC will cause more issues with dialing than the spacing.

I find the black scopes are much easier to read than the pantone and ral8000 colored scopes. Silver on black is better than black on tan.

 

[Lowlight]

S&B scopes with the MTC turrets are tough to hit that .1 after the whole mil. I tend to back into them, so I will dial past quickly and then slowly drop the .2 or 3 I went over. Makes it easier.

On 3x the reticles are about as good as duplex, if you need 3x to hit the target odds are it is super close so you don't even need the subtensions

 

[treillw]

On 3x the reticles are about as good as duplex, if you need 3x to hit the target odds are it is super close so you don't even need the subtensions

Right. I just worry about it being too fine that you can't see it if you are hunting in dark timber.

 

[lash]

That's what illumination is used for.

 

[treillw]

That's what illumination is used for.

How about for a sunny day with an elk in the open at 20 yards? You still need to be able to discern the crosshairs without illumination.

 

[lash]

How about for a sunny day with an elk in the open at 20 yards? You still need to be able to discern the crosshairs without illumination.

Then you use your duplex. like any other up close scope.

See Frank's comment that you quoted above:

Lowlight
On 3x the reticles are about as good as duplex, if you need 3x to hit the target odds are it is super close so you don't even need the subtensions

 

[lash]

Up close at low power:

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/tse1.mm.bing.net\/th?id=OIP.Oh1vl-b-wwzxDJfxOeICcwEOEs&pid=Api"}[/IMG2]

You won't see the cross hairs, but at 20 yards, you have the heavy stadia to put that shot where it needs to be and you better make that shot quick.

And keep in mind that I don't think anyone is telling you that this is optimal for a CQB rifle. The last time that I checked, we were posting on Sniper's Hide where most of the discussion revolves around long distance precision rifle shooting. For this, the P4LF is a fine reticle. Maybe not everyone's cup of tea, but good enough for me. I particularly like it for ELR use.

 

[treillw]

Up close at low power:

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/tse1.mm.bing.net\/th?id=OIP.Oh1vl-b-wwzxDJfxOeICcwEOEs&pid=Api"}[/IMG2]

Do the heavy side "stadia" come in any closer than that? is that image on 3x?

 

[lash]

I think so. The stadia will give you roughly a 10" bull at 20 yards. Also, you are looking at the P4LF (fine) reticle. Here's the P4L reticle at min power:

 

[Flyingbullseye]

Is the US turrets have the option to disable the MTC much like the standard version?

 

[treillw]

Thanks for the info reubenski. It was helpful.

Anybody know if there is a way to access posts from the scout forums? They appear to no longer be active.

 

[Lowlight]

Scout is gone and I made them remove all the SH Content... no posts, no articles, treat it like a bad dream

 

[treillw]

Scout is gone and I made them remove all the SH Content... no posts, no articles, treat it like a bad dream

Ahh I think I had information in those posts about what I thought of the p4f reticle after I saw it in person. It was about 2 years ago and I can't remember. Anybody around MT have a 3-20 with a p4f that I can check out?

 

[Lowlight]

As you can see the Schmidt won't even mount properly without the correct mount bc of it's size.

You have a cantilever mount on one and regular rings on the other, some would call that a clue ...

You can mount the S&B correctly, it's not hard.

 

[Lowlight]

No, it's an unfair comparison saying it's "Hard to Mount" ...

Plus the 5-20x Ultra Short is even smaller than the 3-20x so you can always go that route.

I did not frame anything as negative, merely correcting a statement, didn't say a single thing about the March.

 

[treillw]

I didn't say it was hard to mount. I said it won't mount correctly without the correct mount. Guess I failed to mention the correct mount is a cantilever mount...

The OP asked for a comparison of a 3x20 PMII and March to use on an 8-9lb hunting rifle. If a fella hasn't seen one the small March's side by side with a full sized 3x20 i guess he might think they are comparable. I think a full sized 3x20 on such a rifle would be a quite lopsided. My intent was to show the size difference between the two IOT save the fella $-regret later on down the road. Not quibble about mounting solutions; just helpful to somebody who asked about two scopes I happen to own...

Thanks for the help reubenski, it helps with the perspective of things. I didn't realize the full sized model was that much longer than the march.

It's hard to compare the scopes side by side when I can't even find them to look at individually! Being able to see things in person would make this a whole lot less difficult.

 

[treillw]

Where is the best place to get a deal on an ultra short?

 

[treillw]

didn't say a single thing about the March.

Do you have any negative comments about the March? I'd like to know your thoughts.

 

[2brothers641]

Do you have any negative comments about the March? I'd like to know your thoughts.

Take a look at any other thread going that has March in the title. I don't own a March but the ones i have had a chance to get behind were very impressive.

 

[Hairy Biker]

Seems the best way to start a bar room brawl at this point in time is to say on a forum that March is a really good optical brand. The 3 - 24 x 42mm is the scope they really need to drop from the FFP range because the 52mm option is a better option. Having the additional focus ring as a standard option would help too.

Bottom line is March is a brand that is worth looking at if you are in the market for a new scope in this price bracket. Guys at my range swore they would never spend time behind my gear because they were afraid they would then have to buy one. Then they shot a match with my March. Then they bought their own.

 

[GavinZa]

Seems the best way to start a bar room brawl at this point in time is to say on a forum that March is a really good optical brand. The 3 - 24 x 42mm is the scope they really need to drop from the FFP range because the 52mm option is a better option. Having the additional focus ring as a standard option would help too.

Bottom line is March is a brand that is worth looking at if you are in the market for a new scope in this price bracket. Guys at my range swore they would never spend time behind my gear because they were afraid they would then have to buy one. Then they shot a match with my March. Then they bought their own.

That's not very good.

 

[Hairy Biker]

I just saw the photos of the side by side comparisons. Thanks for that, I had not idea the S&B was so much bigger. Based on the original question I would throw the 42mm back into the mix (noting my bias towards the 52mm). What is the weight difference BTW?

 

[lash]

That's not very good.

There is no scope in the world that will mount properly without the correct mount. It's a ridiculous statement. In his picture, he is using the correct mount for the March, but not the correct mount for the S&B. Pay attention.

 

[lash]

I agree that that Schmidt is too big for a gas gun and am not arguing your point. I just wanted to make sure that nobody misunderstood what was going on. I actually happen to think that the March 3-24x42 is about the perfect size and weight for a hunting rifle or gas gun application.

 

[mpk1996]

I don't have the 3-20 Schmidt, but do have the 5-25. I have looked through the 3-20 and think the glass is pretty close to the 5-25. I also own the 3-24x42 march. as far as glass goes, I think I would give the edge to the Schmidt. its just so stinking clear and crisp, but in all the models (3-20, 3-20 US, 5-20 US) its quite a bit heavier, and until you get to the 5-20 US, quite a bit bigger. I put the 3-24 march on my 22" 6.5 Saum and its a perfect match. I had a kahles k624 on it, and although I love that scope, it was just a little bigger and heavier than I wanted for that rifle. I wanted it to be more "handy", and with the march, it is. I would consider the Schmidt US, but honestly for the money and the added weight, I can't see doing it. I also do like the floating dot of the FM-1 on the march. its a pretty simple reticle and great for hunting. My Schmidt has the H2CMR reticle, which I really like too.

In the end, for a hunting scope that I will end up packing in, its hard to beat the March. I was worried about the eye box, especially on the x42, but it doesn't seem as bad as the reviews would lead you to believe. Its no Kahles (which I think has one of the best eyeboxs out there) but its not hard to get behind either. The parallax knob does have a short throw from 100-inf, but its not had at all to get parallax free. again, the internet keyboard commandos must be a little to picky and bothered by every little thing. not sure how they get out of their air conditioned house to even shoot with every little thing bothering them. LOL. The turrets on the March are great as well for a hunting scope. low profile and enough resistance to keep them in place. I haven't played with the US turrets, but from what I gather, they are pretty nice. I happen to really like the MTC locking turrets on my 5-25, especially since its on my comp rifle. but that's me.

The hardest part about the March is picking them up on a great deal. they only come up sporadically in the classifieds, and there aren't a ton of retailers out there. I think someone has a x52 ilum March for sale now, so that might be a good buy. And they are a good bit cheaper than the Schmidt US.

So, for hunting I wouldn't consider anything other than the March 3-24 or the Schmidt US (or even a leupold mk6 3-18). anything else is going to be to big and or to heavy.

between the march and the Schmidt. the march wins on price and weight, but prob gives some in glass. to be honest though you would prob have to get out the optics charts and sit them side by side to really tell the difference. They are just both so good.

 

[Lowlight]

The S&B 5-20x is much shorter and all you give up a 2x at the bottom end. The 5-20x is a perfect scope for a gas gun and it is cheaper than the 3-20x

18" 308 Wilson

 

[Katana88]

Pardon my ignorance, but what scope mount are you using on that Wilson 18"? Looks like a nice fit.