Rifle Scopes S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

[sickeness]

Hello,
Apologies for starting one of "those" threads, but I have searched and not found any topic on this comparison.

I am looking to buy a high end scope for an Accuracy International AE. I have it narrowed down to either:

1) S&B 3-12x50 PM2

2) Nightforce F1 3.5-15x50

I would be getting a LEO discount on either scope and the S&B would only be $250 more than the Nightforce.

My question is with the relatively small $250 difference, would it be a no-brainer for me to get the S&B? I have never owned or looked through either optic before and know about them based only on their reputations online.

One concern I have about the S&B is that I have read they have a limited amount of internal adjustment built in. I am worried that with the flat (zero moa) base on the AI AE, I may not have sufficient elevation to reach out to 1000. The Nightforce supposedly has plenty of adjustment to use with a zero cant base.

TIA, appreciate any help I can get or opinions from people who have owned both.

 

[Sgt.Henry]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

Hey where do you get the LEO discount?

 

[dirkreader]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

I have a NF, but if I could have gotten the SB for $250 more I would have gone that direction, but I couldn't. That is why I went for the NF, I think it is the best for the money.

 

[rogan]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

600 dollar discount wtf that aint a discount sound like somebody is eating a markup. with a mark up like that no s&b for me. im going to have to dream another dream scope

 

[glock24]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

Why'd you throw the Premier 3-15x out of the decision?

 

[sickeness]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nlrs308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">600 dollar discount wtf that aint a discount sound like somebody is eating a markup. with a mark up like that no s&b for me. im going to have to dream another dream scope </div></div>

The discount is less than $600, the S&B 3-12 that I am referring to is the non-illuminated one.

 

[mattmcg]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

I have both the Nightforce F1 and a few S&B's. Go the S&B route. Better glass, better knobs, and single or double turn knobs.

That said, I might suggest you look at the S&B 4-16x50 with the single turn knob. With a 20 MOA base, you'll have 13.5 mil of elevation which will have no problem getting you to 1000 yards. The 3-12x50, while a good scope, has always had me wanting a bit more magnification. Thus the 4-16x50 which I believe is close to my perfect scope.

 

[rijndael]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

Should something go wrong, the NF will turn around on CS is much better than shipping it to Germany, and crossing your fingers.

 

[BobinNC]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

S&B vs Nightforce? Mercedes Benz vs Lexus? Hard to go very wrong in this neighborhood.

Bob

 

[Rob01]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

Apples to apples you better add another $200 on the S&B to add the rings and sunshade that come with the Nightforce.

Having had both makers, 3-12, 4-16 and 5-25 S&Bs and 2 F1s, I would say the S&B glass is slightly better but when you get up in this range of scopes you are getting great glass no matter the scope. Other than that they are equal. The Nightforce knobs are great although some feel that 5 mils per turn is a problem. To me it's not because I will get to 1000 in two turns with any of my rifles. Also with the zero stop you can't get lost. Both track perfectly and come with good choice of reticles.

Tough choice for you. I would choose the Nightforce and did as that is what is on my rifles now.

 

[sickeness]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

I know people rave about the quality but is the glass in an S&B really that much better? What I mean is that can someone like me who is relatively inexperienced in precision rifle appreciate the difference between an S&B and a NF?

As far as premier goes, I know they are relatively new on the market and they have good CS, but for my own peace of mind I would prefer to go with a established manufacturer.

I would consider USO, but I am located in CA and I would have to pay almost an extra 10% to get one due to our ridiculously high sales tax.

 

[Rob01]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I mean is that can someone like me who is relatively inexperienced in precision rifle appreciate the difference between an S&B and a NF?</div></div>

Maybe, maybe not. It's that close. Slightly better but not $400 better to me.

 

[cubewarrior]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

If you don't go Premier, and go S&B--

You will want a canted based for the 4-16x to reach 1K--go with the 28MOA AI mount. With factory 175s, you are probably going to need between 10.5-11.5 MILs elevation at 1K with factory ammo.

I can't speak to the NF F1.

 

[Turk]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What I mean is that can someone like me who is relatively inexperienced in precision rifle appreciate the difference between an S&B and a NF?</div></div>

Maybe, maybe not. It's that close. Slightly better but not $400 better to me. </div></div>
Personally you have no room commenting on this! As you have not paid for a scope in a long time because you win free stuff at all the comps!

 

[Rob01]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

LOL Actually I paid for my Nightforces but did use some money from stuff I won and sold to do that

Cube, the Nightforce has 110 MOA of travel so getting to 1000 on a flat base will be fine.

 

[Tigerbikes]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

Another $250 for S&B?
No brainer.
If for no other reason, the resale value of the S&B will be much higher.
But the real reason is that S&B is in a different league.

 

[hydro556]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sickeness</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know people rave about the quality but is the glass in an S&B really that much better? What I mean is that can someone like me who is relatively inexperienced in precision rifle appreciate the difference between an S&B and a NF?

As far as premier goes, I know they are relatively new on the market and they have good CS, but for my own peace of mind I would prefer to go with a established manufacturer.

I would consider USO, but I am located in CA and I would have to pay almost an extra 10% to get one due to our ridiculously high sales tax. </div></div>

Discussing image quality in high end scopes is about as subjective a subject as one can broach.

I shoot for fun, from covered concrete benches. From 0-700 yards. Thats it. My opinions are from a recreational shooters point of view. I have owned (and loved) several USO's, a Premier 3-15 (briefly) and am waiting on a Premier 5-25. Comparing all those optics, with MKIV's I have had, and I was left ambiguous. They were all great and the quality of image was plenty good to do everything I needed. Very well.

Then I recently acquired my first S&B. It is a PMII in 5-25x56 with P4F reticle. I finally found a scope that I could definitively say had a superior image(to my eyes) to the others I had used. ALL of them are great, but I can resolve things with the PMII that I could not with the other optics.

This is not just some seat of the pants feel. What illustrated this for me was my Kowa TSN822 spotting scope, believe it or not. With all my other optics, when shooting groups at fairly long ranges, I had to transition from the rifles optic, to the spotter in order to try and discern where the last shot impacted. Not a knock on any of the scopes, as that is what a spotter is for.

Well, once I mounted the PMII on my GAP, I quickly realized that I was better able to see what the group looked like with the rifle scope than the spotter. It is to the point that I am about to quit packing my spotter. The PMII has replaced it. These are my opinions, based on my limited and sheltered (relative to many of the shooters here with infinitely more experience than I) experience. But to me, it is a clear indication of the quality of the optics in the S&B.

I have a Permier 5-25 on the way and am looking forward to it. I plan to buy another USO SN3 as well. What I am saying is that I am not conceding the PMII is the all around greatest buy, because I am not sure it is. It costs substantially more than I get Premiers and USO's for. I am just saying that when it comes down to pure image quality, I am sold on the PMII. JMO

 

[sickeness]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hydro556</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I shoot for fun, from covered concrete benches. From 0-700 yards. Thats it. My opinions are from a recreational shooters point of view. I have owned (and loved) several USO's, a Premier 3-15 (briefly) and am waiting on a Premier 5-25. Comparing all those optics, with MKIV's I have had, and I was left ambiguous. They were all great and the quality of image was plenty good to do everything I needed. Very well.

Then I recently acquired my first S&B. It is a PMII in 5-25x56 with P4F reticle. I finally found a scope that I could definitively say had a superior image(to my eyes) to the others I had used. ALL of them are great, but I can resolve things with the PMII that I could not with the other optics.
</div></div>

Thanks for your reply.
I have owned a USO scope before and I was wondering how you would rate the S&B glass compared to a USO?

 

[hydro556]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

I think USO has awesome clarity, as do most users. I think they are built like tanks and that the EREK is the best elevation knob available. I LOVE USO and have a couple on my to do list.

But like I said, the bottom line is with my eyes, I am able to resolve things with the S&B that I could not with all the others. I have heard others say the exact opposite, including some members posting in this thread for whom I have a ton of respect because they have vastly more experience than I. These are my opinions, but the answer came to me in about as clear a manner as possible. The Kowa (great spotter BTW) let me see better when looking for 308 holes at range, than any of the scopes I have ever had. Except for the S&B.

 

[Rob01]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

I have owned 5 USOs and to my eyes the Nightforce and S&B are better when it comes to glass.

 

[Fredo]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

S&B easy, answer to your original question.

 

[hydro556]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

It is hard for me to say anything that could be construed as negative toward USO. I think they are world class optics at a great price. I will definitely own more. Lord willing.

 

[psinclair]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

Either scope will give you a lifetime of quality shooting.

I agree with hydro556 in that let your own eyes make the decision...I believe some people see better through some optics than others. Look through both scopes, then decide.

Good luck!!

 

[ronin16]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

Customer service is First class from the S&B folks. I sent my scope in for repair and I know it sucked having to be without it for 8 weeks while in Germany for repair. Guess what, folks in New Hampshire sent a brand new in box 4-16x50 with brand new BO rings to use while my scope was getting repaired. As soon as my scope came back from Germany, I packed up the one they let me use and no questions asked got mine shipped back to me when they received their's. What else could you ask for!!!!!

 

[chad3]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

I have one of the "last" premier scopes for the USMC. While I really like the scope, it does have some difference between zero and actual zero (they are a bit off). When asked about it, I was told that they did have a bit of off factored into the actual specs. So what does this mean? My zero looks like it is about half off a 1/10 mil on the turret. Seems like poor quality, but it was within spec and nothing could be done.
Not sure if others would accept this in that scope price. I've looked through some of Rob's and if he said that NF is good to go, I would believe him. If you are truly looking for the best scope only with these parameters for the cost and he says NF, go with it you won't be upset.
Chad

 

[dmg308]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

Man I would go bugshit if the marks didnt line up on my S&B.I just cant believe that cant be corrected thats terrible.

 

[338LM]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

When buying scopes in this price range the difference in glass is not going to be outright obvious. As mentioned the glass in a lot of cases is going to be more user preferential. I did a very lot of glass comparison between USO and NF scopes and the USO was not any better than the NF. They were very equal in comparison in all daylight conditions, low light conditions, and night time conditions. This includes color, clarity, and resolution comparisons also. My eyes actually preferred the NF glass just a little bit more than the USO.
S&B glass is a notch above NF and USO in pretty well every category. Maybe not a lot, but definitely better. It surprised the hell out of me seeing my shots in the target with the S&B's that the USO and NF's could not see at the same distance.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

While I haven't used one personally, I have heard that the NF F1's glass isn't as clear as the stuff on their SFP NXS's.

USO's are great, but can be a little tricky to get a perfectly crisp picture at 100yds (I've seen a few SN3's like that). Mine was alright, but a buddy had a Tpal he couldn't get just right and when he sent it back USO's fix was to replace it with an Ergo.

I have high hopes for the Premier 5-25......

 

[Rob01]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While I haven't used one personally, I have heard that the NF F1's glass isn't as clear as the stuff on their SFP NXS's.

</div></div>

Actually I think it's a hair better from looking through mine.

 

[RTA]

Re: S&B PMII or Nightforce F1?

S&B!! Have both scopes. The glass in the S&B just jumps out at first glance compared to the NF. For the little $$$ difference you ar talking about it is not hard to choose the S&B scope. No looking back for me in this area.