Rifle Scopes S&B Special Forces Contract

#2
Re: S&B Special Forces Contract

The two PSR scope configurations are:

1. US Army 5-25x56PMII/CM/CCW/Horus reticle/Locking Turrets/Tan

2. US Navy 5-25x56PMII/ 1/4 MOA/CCW/H2CMR reticle/Locking Turrets/Tan

Not sure why but it's what they want.
 
#3
Re: S&B Special Forces Contract

Ok, thanks. I'd like to know the reasoning behind ranging in metric and adjusting in fractional minute of angle. I'm just not coming up with a practical reason for it with what little reasoning skill set I've been dealt with. Perhaps an operator or expert will chime in.
 
#4
Re: S&B Special Forces Contract

It's probably because that's how they been doing it. The military isn't all that forward thinking and open to change as we are. I agree it's not what I would have chosen but to get the exact answer you might have to get ahold of the guys who wrote the contract LOL
 
#6
Re: S&B Special Forces Contract

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TwoGun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, thanks. I'd like to know the reasoning behind ranging in metric and adjusting in fractional minute of angle. I'm just not coming up with a practical reason for it with what little reasoning skill set I've been dealt with. Perhaps an operator or expert will chime in. </div></div>

Reasons:

"That's the way we've always done it."

"It's always been good enough (It ain't broke, don't fix it)"

"No one told me any different"
 
#7
Re: S&B Special Forces Contract

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TwoGun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, thanks. I'd like to know the reasoning behind ranging in metric and adjusting in fractional minute of angle. I'm just not coming up with a practical reason for it with what little reasoning skill set I've been dealt with. Perhaps an operator or expert will chime in. </div></div>

First, you should be aware that milradians are an angular unit of measure and have nothing to do with the metric system. Using a mil reticle is not "ranging in metric".

There are plenty of real world snipers who used a mil reticle with MOA knobs and did quite well with them. Most modern shooters, but not all, now agree that mil/mil or moa/moa set ups make more sense. I am a mil/mil user, but even though I range in mils, I adjust my mil knobs based on dope for yards, not meters. There are formulas that give a range in yards or meters based on the shooter's preference.

And having been a firefighter for 35 years, I believe "because that's the way we always did it" played a big part in the answer to the question.
 
#8
Re: S&B Special Forces Contract

If you have been trained to use it then it's no big deal. I think in terms of MOA and I prefer an MOA/MAO scope but I use the standard mildot reticle with MOA adjustments, no big deal at all.
 
#9
Re: S&B Special Forces Contract

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GhostFace</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I prefer an MOA/MAO scope</div></div>

Interesting.

That must be some sort of unique adjustment system created by, or named for "the chairman", eh? Please to describing.
wink.gif









(just bustin yer balls)
 
#10
Re: S&B Special Forces Contract

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Keyser Söze</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GhostFace</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I prefer an MOA/MAO scope</div></div>

Interesting.

That must be some sort of unique adjustment system created by, or named for "the chairman", eh? Please to describing.
wink.gif


(just bustin yer balls) </div></div>

MAO/MAO would probably be better
grin.gif
, but you know that was just a typo.
wink.gif


I was thinking exactly the same thing when I read the post though.

 
#11
Re: S&B Special Forces Contract

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DWood</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TwoGun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, thanks. I'd like to know the reasoning behind ranging in metric and adjusting in fractional minute of angle. I'm just not coming up with a practical reason for it with what little reasoning skill set I've been dealt with. Perhaps an operator or expert will chime in. </div></div>

First, you should be aware that milradians are an angular unit of measure and have nothing to do with the metric system. Using a mil reticle is not "ranging in metric".

There are plenty of real world snipers who used a mil reticle with MOA knobs and did quite well with them. Most modern shooters, but not all, now agree that mil/mil or moa/moa set ups make more sense. I am a mil/mil user, but even though I range in mils, I adjust my mil knobs based on dope for yards, not meters. There are formulas that give a range in yards or meters based on the shooter's preference.

And having been a firefighter for 35 years, I believe "because that's the way we always did it" played a big part in the answer to the question. </div></div>

The military doesn't actually use radians. It's an approximation (several different approximations) which most closely fit a metric conversion. But you already knew that.
 
#12
Re: S&B Special Forces Contract

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TwoGun</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DWood</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TwoGun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, thanks. I'd like to know the reasoning behind ranging in metric and adjusting in fractional minute of angle. I'm just not coming up with a practical reason for it with what little reasoning skill set I've been dealt with. Perhaps an operator or expert will chime in. </div></div>

First, you should be aware that milradians are an angular unit of measure and have nothing to do with the metric system. Using a mil reticle is not "ranging in metric".

There are plenty of real world snipers who used a mil reticle with MOA knobs and did quite well with them. Most modern shooters, but not all, now agree that mil/mil or moa/moa set ups make more sense. I am a mil/mil user, but even though I range in mils, I adjust my mil knobs based on dope for yards, not meters. There are formulas that give a range in yards or meters based on the shooter's preference.

And having been a firefighter for 35 years, I believe "because that's the way we always did it" played a big part in the answer to the question. </div></div>

The military doesn't actually use radians. It's an approximation (several different approximations) which most closely fit a metric conversion. But you already knew that. </div></div>

You are either joking or clueless, not sure which.
 
#13
Re: S&B Special Forces Contract

Ok, so you didn't know. An angular mil (what militaries use) is not a milliradian. I'm not going to explain it to you but now you know. Feel free to educate yourself.
 
#14
Re: S&B Special Forces Contract

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TwoGun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, so you didn't know. An angular mil (what militaries use) is not a milliradian. I'm not going to explain it to you but now you know. Feel free to educate yourself. </div></div>

That seals it. Done.
 
#15
Re: S&B Special Forces Contract

1 yard is 1 milliradian at 1000 yards, 1 foot is 1 milliradian at 1000 feet, and 1 meter is 1 milliradian at 1000 meters, 10 centimeters (.1 meters) is .1 milliradian at 1000 meters.

Radians and milliradians are a unitless measure of angle, that's why they're generally the preferred choice now.

-matt
 
#16
Re: S&B Special Forces Contract

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TwoGun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok, so you didn't know. An angular mil (what militaries use) is not a milliradian. I'm not going to explain it to you but now you know. Feel free to educate yourself. </div></div>

I think you are referring to 6400 millradians used in a compass for navigation purposes, even though in actuality there are ~6283 millradians in a circle.

This is not relevant in millradian scope reticle, as the reticle subtends 1/1000 of any distance.
 
#19
Re: S&B Special Forces Contract

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Flyingbullseye</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What surprises me more than the decision the military took was that S&B still makes a tactical scope with non matching knobs and reticle.

Flyingbullseye </div></div>

It's called choices. People still want them for some reason. That's whay they make MOA/Mil, Mil/Mil and now MOA/MOA. Just more choices for the shooters.
 
#20
Re: S&B Special Forces Contract

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Flyingbullseye</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What surprises me more than the decision the military took was that S&B still makes a tactical scope with non matching knobs and reticle.

Flyingbullseye </div></div>

If they did'nt they may not have won a 30 mil contract.MOA/MIL while not ideal is still used with success.Its alot easier for a person to look at something and say that works better then it is for a huge group to come to the same conclusion.
 
#22
Re: S&B Special Forces Contract

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Flyingbullseye</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What surprises me more than the decision the military took was that S&B still makes a tactical scope with non matching knobs and reticle.

Flyingbullseye </div></div>

It's called choices. People still want them for some reason. That's whay they make MOA/Mil, Mil/Mil and now MOA/MOA. Just more choices for the shooters. </div></div>

Must be easier for them to make all these reticle/knob combos than to make the 3-20x PMII eh?
smile.gif
I'm about to give up on the one I've got on order and just get another 5-25x PMII w/one of the new reticles.
 
#24
Re: S&B Special Forces Contract

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TrapperSGD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In this sort of situation how does the spotter communicate with the shooter? Does the spotter call out corrections in mils or MOA? Or does it not work like that all? </div></div>

The spotter would call out a correction in MOA (or clicks) if he wanted the sniper to dial in and hold dead on. He would call out the correction in mils if he wanted him to hold-off.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TwoGun</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This article could be wrong but it suggests the military has ordered H2CMR reticles with 1/4 MOA adjustments. I've never understood having a reticle in a different measurement than the adjustments. Is this something the military uses or is it wrong? What's the purpose or advantage?
</div></div>

Just gonna take a SWAG here, but one reason may be that all the sight adjustments in the military on iron sights and optics for standard soldiers are in MOA. All the FM's give adjustments in MOA, so soldiers are already familiar with making those adjustments. Most soldiers are also taught to range estimate in mils, for such things as call for fire. So most combat arms troops are familiar with them as well. The standard sniper scope combines both systems that the soldiers are already familiar with, MOA for adjustments and mils for range estimation.
 
#25
Re: S&B Special Forces Contract

I'll play ball...As a defense contractor I've learned the following.

Never submit a proposal in excess of spec...save that for the mod program.

Firm fixed priced contracts are just the starting point for what a contract really costs.

Never argue with an idiot, because they will either:
1) Give the contract to the other guy.
2) Drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Laziness and arrogance, usually in combination, lead to a default of #1 resulting in large deliveries of #2.

Even so, I would love to get my hands on one of the Horus models.
 
#26
Re: S&B Special Forces Contract

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: buffybuster</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

This is not relevant in millradian scope reticle, as the reticle subtends 1/1000 of any distance. </div></div>

Well, this makes the most sense to me. This is indeed true. The mil will subtend 1 yard at 1000 yards or 1 meter at 1000 meters or 1 foot at 1000 feet. So ultimately for ranging purposes mil makes sense. I suppose if one is ranging in yards with mil then corrections in MOA can be somewhat natural. Is this the case?

I'd still prefer adjustments in 10ths of yards or 10ths of feet (or 10ths of torso), over an adjustment that needs somewhat of a conversion. But then I don't do enough of this to be wired for practical adjustment without electronics. Probably need to work on that.



 
#27
Re: S&B Special Forces Contract

the Navy switched to mil/mil as well , for this contract;

July 2011 issue of Sniperworx.com has an interview with Schmidt Bender military manager;

pretty darn cool that this contract optic is a production scope, with basically three things added, ceramic coating in tan, locking elevation turret, and a grid reticle (Horus H58)

I have one of the PSR scope submissions here now for review and in a word - spectacular

George
 
#28
Re: S&B Special Forces Contract

I'm. not sure on the H58. That reticle has been superseded with the H59.

Im glad they went with the Horus though. The sniper guys really like them. A sniper inst friend of mine said he loves using the h27 and hates having to go back to regular mil dots.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: banshee sws</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the Navy switched to mil/mil as well , for this contract;

July 2011 issue of Sniperworx.com has an interview with Schmidt Bender military manager;

pretty darn cool that this contract optic is a production scope, with basically three things added, ceramic coating in tan, locking elevation turret, and a grid reticle (Horus H58)

I have one of the PSR scope submissions here now for review and in a word - spectacular

George </div></div>
 
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