Has anyone been behind both of these? I currently have the 4-16 ATACR and really have no complaints. I won a rebate from S&B at a match, so I started looking at a 5-20 non-illuminated to possibly replace the ATACR (if i can bring myself to sell it). It would go on a shorter 6 creed bolt gun. I would appreciate any feedback from those who have spent some time with both. Thanks.
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Rifle Scopes S&B Ultra Short and 4-16 ATACR Comparison?
- Thread starter B-P-UU
- Start date
I have a NF 4-16X42 ATACR and just got a SB 3-20X50 US. I have not spent a lot of time behind either at distance.
They are both great scopes, but I would give the the overall fit, feel, clarity and quality to SB. The MTC takes a little getting used to, and I have no use for the turret lock. The 50mm objective also makes the SB brighter.
They are both great scopes, but I would give the the overall fit, feel, clarity and quality to SB. The MTC takes a little getting used to, and I have no use for the turret lock. The 50mm objective also makes the SB brighter.
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I haven't been behind a NF 4-16, but I love my 5-20US compared to my NF 5-25 and Kahles K624i.
I plan on grabbing a NF 4-16 for my .308 bolt gun next just because I can't justify another S&B or I would grab another one without hesitation.
I plan on grabbing a NF 4-16 for my .308 bolt gun next just because I can't justify another S&B or I would grab another one without hesitation.
I own the NF 4-16 and have handled and looked through the SB US outside at Mile High. I don't think the NF gives up much if anything to the SB in terms of fit/finish, it is a solid little scope and quite bright for a 44mm obj. I've compared it to my Premier 3-15 LT's and it is good. The elevation turret has large and bright numbers that are easy to see compared to the SB numbers. I have good eyes, but I appreciate how easy they are to see. Also the SB's clicks are very fine and tightly spaced where as the NF turret has a lot more space and solid clunk feel vs the clicky feel of the SB. User preference, but worth mentioning. I like the NF turret better, and you get illumination. Don't get me wrong, I've lusted after an US at times, but after handling one I know the NF isn't far behind, and certain features I like better. Definitely more bang for your buck.
As a NF 4-16 owner I'm also most interested in the Ultra Short. I had a S&B 5-25 and I prefer the ATACR from a size & weight perspective. The ATACR does everything I want and I've had great success in matches with it. That said the US seems more of a good thing but I've not had the chance to handle one yet.
Conrad The NF is far behind in glass and eyebox if you shoot both side by side. That's to say no issue seeing, shooting & self spotting a 12" plate at 1100 with the NF. If compactness is desired, the NF considerably longer. The clamped ocular TT cap also sucks. I had to remove entire cap cause my bolt handle would impact it. The US can be had illum or not.
Reticle option is a consideration. NF reticles suck ... limited to Mil-R(etarded) and Mil-C(rap). But if I had a $6500 max budget for 3 scopes, going NF is an easy decision vs 2 US.
B-P-UU re mounting, what set up are you using? There may be issues depending upon action, head position, etc. Example: don't mount an illum model on split/two piece rail or long action, may have to go higher rings due to stubby design. But you won't have any of those issues with the NF.
Reticle option is a consideration. NF reticles suck ... limited to Mil-R(etarded) and Mil-C(rap). But if I had a $6500 max budget for 3 scopes, going NF is an easy decision vs 2 US.
B-P-UU re mounting, what set up are you using? There may be issues depending upon action, head position, etc. Example: don't mount an illum model on split/two piece rail or long action, may have to go higher rings due to stubby design. But you won't have any of those issues with the NF.
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Can't compare to the Nightforce as I've never owned one, but I can say the Ultra Short 5-20x50 is one fine scope, one of my favorites for a gas gun or covert style rifle. That being said, I did have it mounted on my SA Bighorn TL2 with ARC low rings and it fit just fine even with the Tenebraex cap on the front but I did have to twist the cap so it flipped to the side. My barrel is a modified medium Palma and going off memory there was about an 1/8" clearance between the barrel and the Tenebraex... not the best pic but gives you some idea, I had no issues throwing the bolt back.
S&B are great scopes, we are also getting great feedback on the Nightforce ATACR 4-16x42mm they are bad ass rifle-scopes. I have done side by side comparisons I'm not sure if anyone could really tell the difference in glass quality.
We sell both so if we can be of help let us know.
Mike @ CSTACTICAL
We sell both so if we can be of help let us know.
Mike @ CSTACTICAL
Thanks Bill, that is helpful. Mine will be on a TL2 or TL3 as well. Also, it won't have the 'illumination tumor' on the tube so there is more room for the rear ring and it's placement.
I have a 5-20X50 US I bought second hand. It’s got the Tremor 2 which I plan to utilise. However I do find the turrets spacing incredibly close as it’s 17 mil rotation turret. I have since found that they do different turret options with better spacing the other is a 12 mil turret. But then beggars can’t be choosers they don’t come up for sale second hand too often in the U.K.
Certainly if buying new I would go for the 12 mil turret. Other than that I am really impressed with the scope.
Certainly if buying new I would go for the 12 mil turret. Other than that I am really impressed with the scope.
Both scopes are very nice so it's going to come down to user preference and application. Regarding glass, NF glass isn't keeping me from hitting targets during the day or night. I compared it to my Premier 3-15x50 on a moonlit night and I felt like I could make the same shots with either scopes.
I have the milC reticle in my 5-25 ATACR and I think it is an excellent reticle. Layout of the 0.2 mil wind hashes is super intuitive and fast. I would say it beats SB's conventional reticles and if you want a tree reticle then both brands offer the Tremors and nothing more of their own, so it is a wash there.
I did take the caps off mine as I didn't care for them either. I'm running more neoprene scope scopes these days as they don't break and provide additional protection for my scopes during transport.
No illumination wart on the F1 getting in the way either. I think the US is sexy but the ATACR keeps me satisfied. I just need to swap MILR for MILC in mine now.
I have the milC reticle in my 5-25 ATACR and I think it is an excellent reticle. Layout of the 0.2 mil wind hashes is super intuitive and fast. I would say it beats SB's conventional reticles and if you want a tree reticle then both brands offer the Tremors and nothing more of their own, so it is a wash there.
I did take the caps off mine as I didn't care for them either. I'm running more neoprene scope scopes these days as they don't break and provide additional protection for my scopes during transport.
No illumination wart on the F1 getting in the way either. I think the US is sexy but the ATACR keeps me satisfied. I just need to swap MILR for MILC in mine now.
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Jerry @ S&B service center was kind enough to bring in two of his personal ultra shorts (one 5-20, one 3-20) on Wednesday and let me come check them out and compare side by side. I brought one of my ATACR F1 4-16's to compare as well. I had already decided I wanted a US but just didn't know which to go with and had no experience with either model. Both were typical S&B excellence, and I really didn't notice any meaningful difference between them. The only thing that even remotely stood out is that the 3-20 tunneled ever so slightly to about 3.25x maybe which is really nothing at all.
Normally I hate MTC turrets after having a few S&B's with the standard knobs with them, I always jumped past 2-3 clicks not matter what. This was not the case at all with either of the two US models which I attribute to the much wider knob profile. Adjustments were positive and precise. I also liked the feel of the locking feature. It's a feature I have no real use for but I was happy to see that the ring was firm yet not too firm. You're not going to "accidentally" lock or unlock it but at the same time don't need gorilla strength to do so. Very well done.
Compared to the NF the 5-20 was a bit shorter and the 3-20 is a bit longer. Knobs? Well I really like both, the 4-16 ATACR F1 are actually my favorite NF knobs. Very positive, precise, and audible. The S&B knobs are still a little more positive and audible though. Huge difference? No, but S&B turrets are by far my favorite of any scopes I've ever used. The S&B get's the edge in glass quality, period. It's not night and day and the NF still have phenomenal glass but the S&B is still noticeably better.
My only complaint on the NF isn't the scope but the tenebraex cover mounting ring on the ocular. It clamps on and every one I have has cracked and will no longer stay on. Only one of them has had any sort of abuse or impact to possibly assist in the failure. The clamping ring really should be metal and it would fix this. It's a huge annoyance to me. Due to the entire ocular turning for magnification changes (which some hate but I love because I can just grab it anywhere and turn) a butler creek replacement would get in the way of weapon manipulation and the BC's don't turn well whereas the tenebraex covers will easily rotate around out of the way. Another remedy is a bikini cover ziptied to the tube but the cover dangling down would get in the way on a DMR comp gun.
Is the S&B worth the cost difference? That comes down to the individual, I personally just wanted one so I had justified it already but now I'm probably actually going to end up with a few of them. Euro Optic was out of the model I wanted (5-20 CCW DT Tremor 3 Illuminated) but Jason is special ordering one for me and I'll have it in a few months. My guess is I'll be ordering a second of the same model as well as two 3-20's since two rifles I'd like to put them on won't work as well with a 5-20 due to the mounting options.
Normally I hate MTC turrets after having a few S&B's with the standard knobs with them, I always jumped past 2-3 clicks not matter what. This was not the case at all with either of the two US models which I attribute to the much wider knob profile. Adjustments were positive and precise. I also liked the feel of the locking feature. It's a feature I have no real use for but I was happy to see that the ring was firm yet not too firm. You're not going to "accidentally" lock or unlock it but at the same time don't need gorilla strength to do so. Very well done.
Compared to the NF the 5-20 was a bit shorter and the 3-20 is a bit longer. Knobs? Well I really like both, the 4-16 ATACR F1 are actually my favorite NF knobs. Very positive, precise, and audible. The S&B knobs are still a little more positive and audible though. Huge difference? No, but S&B turrets are by far my favorite of any scopes I've ever used. The S&B get's the edge in glass quality, period. It's not night and day and the NF still have phenomenal glass but the S&B is still noticeably better.
My only complaint on the NF isn't the scope but the tenebraex cover mounting ring on the ocular. It clamps on and every one I have has cracked and will no longer stay on. Only one of them has had any sort of abuse or impact to possibly assist in the failure. The clamping ring really should be metal and it would fix this. It's a huge annoyance to me. Due to the entire ocular turning for magnification changes (which some hate but I love because I can just grab it anywhere and turn) a butler creek replacement would get in the way of weapon manipulation and the BC's don't turn well whereas the tenebraex covers will easily rotate around out of the way. Another remedy is a bikini cover ziptied to the tube but the cover dangling down would get in the way on a DMR comp gun.
Is the S&B worth the cost difference? That comes down to the individual, I personally just wanted one so I had justified it already but now I'm probably actually going to end up with a few of them. Euro Optic was out of the model I wanted (5-20 CCW DT Tremor 3 Illuminated) but Jason is special ordering one for me and I'll have it in a few months. My guess is I'll be ordering a second of the same model as well as two 3-20's since two rifles I'd like to put them on won't work as well with a 5-20 due to the mounting options.
I’ve taken mine to 700 multiple times with my 223. Adjustments are consistent. Shot a cow elk with it in my 300 WM at 300. Nice optic for a hunting rifle too. Some people don’t like the MILR but the MILC is very good and you can get it in Horus reticles if that suits you. The scope is super solid and as I said gives up very little to the best of the best glass for the price, mechanics are great and top turret design is one of the best in my opinion.
I can't comment on the US but I did have a S&B 5-25 for a number of years. As to the 4-16 I shot in the Australian practical comps all of the 2016 season with it and did not find the scope lacking - I love its simplicity, size & weight. Really the only thing I'd change about the ATACR is the Mil-R reticle and the rotating eyepiece, but with the Mil-C out now the reticle issue is no factor. I've never missed high magnification in a competition setting but I do notice its absence during load development and general range time - when time is of little importance and conditions are optimal it's nice to be able to dial up to 20+, again - this was a complete none issue for a PRS style comp where 16x is more than enough. One thing that doesn't often get mentioned is the highly flexible parallax on the ATACR - a small factor that saves time when time counts. It's a great scope. In the spirit of full disclosure my scope did have to go back to the factory due to a glue leak problem. There was a thread about this issue with others observing the same defect on the Scout site. NF turned my scope around in about 2 months (from Oz to US return) and were great to deal with.
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bump for a thread that's a month old....
I am agonizing over a decision between these two scopes as well. The 5-20 US is BARELY within my budget if I stretch it a little bit. The ATACR 4-16 is an old friend that I'd be very comfortable reuniting with, never should have sold the 1st one and I'd love to keep the extra $ for a new barrel down the road. And I know 16x sufficient for my hunting needs.
But nowadays, I shoot a lot of steel plates at distance by myself without the possibility of having a spotter. Only 600 yards right now, but if I find a different place the range could be a bit further. I am just wondering if that extra magnification up to 20x is really worth the extra money, especially with the mounting challenges? I thought about the 3-20 US, but I'd defer to the NF just because it's compact.
I am agonizing over a decision between these two scopes as well. The 5-20 US is BARELY within my budget if I stretch it a little bit. The ATACR 4-16 is an old friend that I'd be very comfortable reuniting with, never should have sold the 1st one and I'd love to keep the extra $ for a new barrel down the road. And I know 16x sufficient for my hunting needs.
But nowadays, I shoot a lot of steel plates at distance by myself without the possibility of having a spotter. Only 600 yards right now, but if I find a different place the range could be a bit further. I am just wondering if that extra magnification up to 20x is really worth the extra money, especially with the mounting challenges? I thought about the 3-20 US, but I'd defer to the NF just because it's compact.
It's nice to see the scopes side by size when discussing a comparison like this. Does anyone have both scopes that they could take a picture of?
I was thinking of getting rid of a Kahles k624i to set up smaller hunting rifle for next year. The NF 4-16 is my top choice right now. I was thinking of the Tikka CTR and the NF 4-16. That seems like a good setup.
You can get the MILC reticle in the ATACR now. Very nice reticle. 16x will take you to 1000+ yard easily. I think I secretly want an US but you get more bang for your buck with the NF. I own the NF. The elevation clicks are very fine on the US I handled, couple that with the MTC feature and it’s a little tricky to dial but I think with practice it would be fine. I think the US may have a little easier zero stop but I don’t fret about that stuff especially if you’re just using it on one rifle. If you need a barrel too then get the NF so you can keep shooting.
NF 4 X 16 very nice optic. I wrestled with that very decision. Ultra Short 5 x 20 had better light gathering ability. 
I have both..The NF is very nice..very good glass resolution and color. Decent eyebox and FOV..Depth of field pretty good. Tracked perfectly past 1K yards. very good tactile knob design. The Schmidt and Bender 5-20 Ultrashort is just a remarkable piece of engineering. The glass resolution and color is among the best. The eyebox is very forgiving and huge FOV. The tracking as expected perfect and the knobs for me are fantastic. Mine is the single turn MTC. The image brightness is definitely better on the S&B but maybe that is due to the 50mm objective vs 42. The only thing I find better by a small margin if depth of field at closer distance with the nightforce but past 500yds the S&B is better.
I have to agree on this one, I wish it was 50mm and keep the same really low profile lockable at "0" elevation turret... I really like my 4-16... See alot of US scopes in the PX, the 4-16's don't usually last but a few days. I say look through both and look at the cash difference and see if it's really worth it...
Because it's what all of us asked for... for quite a few years.
The 50mm version is intended for a different audience (LE), and that's what they asked for.
Well shit. I was sold on the 4-16 ATACR for my new build but this thread makes me want another S&B. This forum is a terrible influence on my finances.
Hi BP,
i may may have missed it but what are you intending to shoot? 1000m? PRS Comps? Hunting? I have recently gone through this decision myself. The scope was to go on an AI AT in 260Rem to shoot a Precision Service Rifle competition. Lots of positional shooting (prone, prone unsupported,Hawkins, kneeling and seated on figure 12, 14 and 11 targets predominantly at the 200, 300, 400, 500 ranges with about 10% at 800 and 900 m. I looked at the two scopes you mentioned and went with an Ultrashort in the end (5-20x50) with a P4F reticle. Main reasons were: greater light & a bit more magnification when needed. i don’t use the locking turrets but they make setting the zero stop a breeze and I don’t mind the stiffer clicks on each mil, but I don’t have to do any quick dialling between shots. Hope this helps your decision making
i may may have missed it but what are you intending to shoot? 1000m? PRS Comps? Hunting? I have recently gone through this decision myself. The scope was to go on an AI AT in 260Rem to shoot a Precision Service Rifle competition. Lots of positional shooting (prone, prone unsupported,Hawkins, kneeling and seated on figure 12, 14 and 11 targets predominantly at the 200, 300, 400, 500 ranges with about 10% at 800 and 900 m. I looked at the two scopes you mentioned and went with an Ultrashort in the end (5-20x50) with a P4F reticle. Main reasons were: greater light & a bit more magnification when needed. i don’t use the locking turrets but they make setting the zero stop a breeze and I don’t mind the stiffer clicks on each mil, but I don’t have to do any quick dialling between shots. Hope this helps your decision making
it will probably do a little of everything.. more hunting and field shooting than PRS. I have other scopes for comps with reticles I prefer more (tree).
would really like to hold out for their new LRR-MIL reticle but my cert will expire befor that comes out I'm afraid.. ha.
this has been a good thread with lots of good info so far.
I feel you, but the cost of entry into Ultrashort S&B territory is ~$1K over the ATACR. That's just...too much.
So I just ordered a 5-20 US. Since I got a non-illuminated model, there were only 3 reticle choices (P4F, H59, T3). I went P4F as this will be a hunting rig primarily.
Regarding the turret options, there are 2 DT, and 1 ST. The single turn hasn't changed (16-17 MIL per rev)
double turn are 36 MIL total (18 MIL per rev) or 27 MIL total (14 MIL per rev). I opted for the 27 MIL. All that to say, a 12 MIL per rev version does not exist.
Glad to see I am not the only one having this dilemma.
I am wanting something for an SR25 ACC. I was about to pull the trigger on a used US, but then read about the Atacr, now I don’t know what to do.
Both optics I am looking at are in the forsale on here, $800 in difference. All I keep telling myself is that is a lot of ammo for training, not to mention my range only goes to 500.
I have no idea what to do.
I am wanting something for an SR25 ACC. I was about to pull the trigger on a used US, but then read about the Atacr, now I don’t know what to do.
Both optics I am looking at are in the forsale on here, $800 in difference. All I keep telling myself is that is a lot of ammo for training, not to mention my range only goes to 500.
I have no idea what to do.
Earlier in this thread, I expressed my consternation regarding picking between these two scopes. I ended up purchasing a NIB ATACR at slightly used pricing, and kept that extra $1000 to buy a couple cases of ammo. I am glad I did.....
Price was right, no illumination tumor, so more flexibility for scope mounting and rings.. also, I've read the illume is pretty dim on these.. More for NV.
and I don't really use the illum on any of my other scopes either.
What number mount is that? I'm also curious why you mounted the rmr there instead of on the spuhr? What rmr mount as well?
MTC can be disabled, requires simple removing of MTC pin. However, unlike 5-25 DT or some other PMII scopes, Ultra-Short turret removal voids warranty, it is not meant to be opened. Turret assembling is possible without special tools but requires steady hand. I have some photos of opened turret during surgery, but really wouldn't want to encourage anyone to mess it up..
S&B 3-20 Ultra-version DT turret comes as 2 versions now. Original version is one with 350 clicks in 2 revolutions. Second one added later 2017 is with 270 clicks in 2 revolutions, so mechanical movement between clicks is larger -> better felt feedback. I have used 350 click version only without any problem but I can still imagine someone might not prefer rather dense steps. But for those who appreciate turret feel over some extra turret travel, 27mrad version is better.
I now have both in hand and will do a review when time permits:
NF 4-16 on a Tikka 6.5x47
Schmidt 3-20 on Surgeon 6.5x47
NF 4-16 on a Tikka 6.5x47
Schmidt 3-20 on Surgeon 6.5x47
I’m glad someone else said it first. Having owned both I also prefer the ATACR. The NF options gives you mil-c, a better zero stop for multical set ups, and a few hundred bucks in your pocket. I also like the NF turrets better.
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