Rifle Scopes S&B USMC Civilian scope

[Judge]

Guys,

I've finally saved enough pennies for a S&B USMC civilian scope (M-8541 copy)with Gen 2 reticle. However I have read that there are problems with these scopes in regards to reticle shifting and turret getting loose due to the MTC revision in which a pin for turret was used that was too soft and becomes loose. Since these scopes cost a considerable amount of money, I wanted to ask you guys what are your experiences with this specific USMC model from S&B?

Also would like to ask if this scope is issued with centimeter turrets or .25moa turrets which are an option. Anyway, any feedback in regards to this S&B scope would be appreciated including best prices.

Thank you,
Judge

 

[deadly0311]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

the SSDS is in mils. I havent heard of any problems like that, lots of people around here run them and dont have any problems. The ones on our 40s dont have any problems, and they have been put through more hell than most guns on here.

 

[DesertMonkey]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

+1 for what deadly0311 said. I have used them with out a problem.

L.

 

[rasheed]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

Problems with S&B??? Inconceivable!!!

 

[Judge]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

On the Snipercentral forums there is a discussion titled "M8541
SSDS PROBLEMS".

While the USMC issue M8541 is indeed in rads, the civilian version is cm or moa.

 

[Judge]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

BTW, what would you guys consider a good price on this scope?

 

[deadly0311]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

the civvy version also comes in mils, there are a ton of guys running them, RO crew runs S&Bs hard as hell and havent had any problems out of them. They definitely use their stuff a lot harder than you ever will. Buy it in Mils. If the CM model if its one cm per click, essentially thats what a mil scope is.

 

[Judge]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

Deadly0311,

I have spoken to various S&B dealers and they all stated that the civ USMC is 1cm a click, unless you were lucky enough to get the REAL M-8541 with NSN# stamped on scope, these are no longer available.

It was stated that the only differnce between USMC M8541 and civ version is cm instead of mil, and no NSN# stamp.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

a mil is .1 miliradin per click which turns into 1 cm per click at 100m, so if the civvy version is 1 cm per click, they seem to adjust the same to me. Like i said also, havent heard of any problems with the SSDS or for that matter the PM II series at all. We run the SSDS hard as hell, alot harder than you ever will and there are no problems with them. Buy it you wont be dissappointed

 

[lizzardking308]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Judge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Deadly0311,

I have spoken to various S&B dealers and they all stated that the civ USMC is 1cm a click, unless you were lucky enough to get the REAL M-8541 with NSN# stamped on scope, these are no longer available.

It was stated that the only differnce between USMC M8541 and civ version is cm instead of mil, and no NSN# stamp. </div></div>


Some have the USMC markings, but there are VERY VERY few with the NSN...

 

[rijndael]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">which turns into 1 cm per click at 100yds</div></div>

1 cm @ 100 M

 

[deadly0311]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

thanks missed that one, you are correct. My mistake

 

[chad3]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Judge</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Deadly0311,

I have spoken to various S&B dealers and they all stated that the civ USMC is 1cm a click, unless you were lucky enough to get the REAL M-8541 with NSN# stamped on scope, these are no longer available.

It was stated that the only differnce between USMC M8541 and civ version is cm instead of mil, and no NSN# stamp.</div></div>

Don't know who your dealers are, but mine is stamped 1 click = 1 mrad

Nothing about cm...
Chad

 

[Lindy]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

An angle of 0.1 milliradian subtends an arc whose length is 1 centimeter at a distance of 100 meters. For some time, S&B stamped their turrets "1 cm", and for some time, I was critical of that practice.

Finally, they corrected it. I don't know if the correction was because I made fun of them for so long that they got tired of it, or some other factor convinced them to change. I don't really care, as long as they got it right.

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

Lindy, the marking "1 cm at 100 m" is also 100% correct (as is 0.1 milliradian) and easier to understand for all the rest of the world (read: everyone but the USA) that uses the metric system

 

[Lindy]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

"1 cm at 100 m" is correct. That's not how the ones I saw were marked. They were marked simply "1 cm", and, as you know very well, that's not correct.

But if you want to be metric, the SI unit of angular measurement is the radian, so if you want to hew to metric standards, the milliradian marking is <span style="font-style: italic">more</span> correct.

So, I'm afraid that you are hoist with your own petard.

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

Lindy, the "problem" is that the world is metric and real state in the turrets is limited... everyone outside the USA knows what it means is and this is only an american problem.

Since the metric system is decimal, it goes hand in hand with the milliradian and there is no need to even teach the milliradian concept... just say "the distance betweens dots is 10 cm at 100 m, 20 cm at 200 m... and so on", and to correct POI "1 click is 1 cm at 100 m, 2 cm at 200 an so on". Done.

 

[Lindy]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

Given that "0.1 mrad" is shorter than "1 cm at 100 m", there's no reason to mark the turret in anything but "0.1 mrad".

It's not an American problem, and given that Americans use radians as an angular measure, it has nothing to do with the metric system.

If you're going to mark the turrets, mark them with a unit of angular measure. "0.1 mrad" works fine.

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

Lindy...........

"1 click = 0.1 mrad" is indeed shorter than "1 click = 1 cm at 100 m"

I'm an engineer and I fully agree that "1 click = 0.1 mrad" is technically correct

But not everybody remembers instantly what a milliradian is from their high school years. Nor everybody remembers what distance one MOA subtends at 100 yds or 100 m, or we would not have all these questions here at SH about it every week, year after year, from (I guess) smart and educated people.

So it is VERY convenient for all the math simpletons in the world (except to the decimal and metrically challenged USA

) to use "1 click = 1 cm at 100 m" or even "1 click = 1 cm" because everybody knows it is at 100 m and understanding of the reticle + click system is fast and effortless.

 

[Lindy]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

Well, S&B is now marking the turrets on the scopes I've seen of late as "0.1 mrad", so I guess they don't agree with you.

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

I'm pretty sure this recent move has less to do with technical correction than to make the scopes clicks more pallatable to the US users (large market, BTW) that have a knee-jerk reaction every time they read anything remotely "metric"... this "issue" was never a problem before elsewhere.

I can assure you that all the milliradian yadda yadda is cut short in the rest of the world, and for simplicity (or simpleton's) sake all the training and basic use explanation one gets of the reticle and clicks is something like this:

"the distance betweens dots is 10 cm at 100 m, 20 cm at 200 m... and so on, and it is equals 10 clicks at all ranges"

"1 click is 1 cm at 100 m, 2 cm at 200 an so on". Done.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"1 click is 1 cm at 100 m, 2 cm at 200 an so on". Done.</div></div>

Why would you want to reduce the system to a linear measurement, when its supposed to be an angular one.

saying is, X at 100, Y at 200, creates errors, instead of saying 1 Mil at 100 is 1 Mil at 200 and 1 mil at 333.666 meters... no error, a mil is a mil, not a mil is X at Y

 

[Lindy]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why would you want to reduce the system to a linear measurement, when its supposed to be an angular one.</div></div>

You wouldn't. The only reason anyone would advocate that is so that they can arrogantly beat up on the U.S. for not adopting the metric system.

There is no other reason, because angular measurement has nothing to do with the metric system or linear measurement.

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

LL, read it again:

"the distance betweens dots is 10 cm at 100 m, 20 cm at 200 m... and so on, <span style="font-weight: bold">and it is equal to 10 clicks at all ranges</span>" <span style="font-style: italic">...the angular measurement thing is implicit here</span>

"one mil is 10 cm at 100 m, one click is 0.1 mil and so it is 1 cm at 100 m, 2 cm at 200 an so on".

You can add the old distance estimation formula:

"distance (m) = target size(m)/mil reading*1000"

Please understand this is for <span style="font-weight: bold">basic</span> users with a metric mind. No mistakes whatsoever induced with this short explanation, and much simpler than having to review the radian as a unit of angular measurement, and review/explain what is a milliradian and the arc it subtends.

Lindy, I like to "arrogantly" (more like friendlily) poke fun of the US for being the only country in the world that has not adopted the metric system for common use... even though every industry in the US is using it and everyone involved in science/math/physics/engineering/architecture/chemistry/etc. has a working knowledge of it and no one with a technical background will ever defend the US system. How come one of the most advanced and educated nations in the world has so much trouble with it?

 

[Lowlight]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

trust me, telling people anything is 1 @100 2 @ 200, etc, creates problems because they are always trying to figure out what that means in their head instead of reading the reticle directly.

if you see a splash or impact 1 mil from center at any distance the answer is to dial or hold 1 mil, it doesn't matter what that equals in linear distance. There is no reason what so ever to say its 20CM at 200, it doesn't matter. Its a MIL.

That is easier and most basic way to show it... I can say that from experience and having dealt with people coming from both directions, mils or MOA, the MOA people who learn that 1 @ 100, 2 @ 200 always try to add things up.

 

[JRose]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

Wouldn't the same hold true for MOA provided your using an MOA reticle though? If you see your splash at 1 MOA from center, then you dial or hold 1 MOA . If so you get the same thing, 1 MOA is 1 MOA no matter the distance. Saying 1 MOA is 10" (or 10.47") at a 1000y would be no different than saying 1 Mil is 36" at 1000y.

Seems to me like the importance of the measurement of angle is secondary to having the scope's reticle match the turrets...

 

[He Shoot Me]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">if you see a splash or impact 1 mil from center at any distance the answer is to dial or hold 1 mil, it doesn't matter what that equals in linear distance. There is no reason what so ever to say its 20CM at 200, it doesn't matter. Its a MIL.</div></div>

*Smacks forehead* That's so freaking simple, I'm such a dumb-ass.

 

[supersix4]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

You are correct JRose, mil or moa does not matter. but the reticle and turrets MUST match. anything else is extra work. Matching reticle and turrets makes it stupid easy.

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">trust me, telling people anything is 1 @100 2 @ 200, etc, creates problems because they are always trying to figure out what that means in their head instead of reading the reticle directly.

if you see a splash or impact 1 mil from center at any distance the answer is to dial or hold 1 mil, it doesn't matter what that equals in linear distance. There is no reason what so ever to say its 20CM at 200, it doesn't matter. Its a MIL.

That is easier and most basic way to show it... I can say that from experience and having dealt with people coming from both directions, mils or MOA, the MOA people who learn that 1 @ 100, 2 @ 200 always try to add things up. </div></div>

This is TRUE, and I'm not disputing it, I only mentioned a very basic explanation for people used to the metric system. After this short explanation, when the first shots and their corrections are made the "think in mils" becomes second nature.

 

[Lindy]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

Both milliradians and MOA are measurements of angle which have <span style="font-weight: bold">nothing</span> whatsoever to do with any system of linear measure.

There are two times Pi radians in a circle, and a milliradian is simply one-thousands of a radian.

One milliradian is an angle which subtends an arc whose length is 1/1000th of the distance from the vertex.

In other words, one milliradian subtends an arc whose length is:
1 yard at 1000 yards.
1 meter at 1000 meters.
1 mile at 1000 miles.
1 league at 1000 leagues.
1 fathom at 1000 fathoms.
1 inch at 1000 inches.
1 foot at 1000 feet.
1 lightyear at 1000 lightyears.
1 attoparsec at 1000 attoparsecs.
3.6 inches at 3600 inches (100 yards).

Angular measurement has nothing to do with linear measurement.

Personally, I have no problem with the metric system.

But telling an entire country what system of measurement they "ought" to be using is the height of arrogance. You've been doing it for years, and it's boring. Please stop, or I'll start telling jokes about Alfredo Stroessner.

 

[TiroFijo]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

Come'on you have been using the same attoparsec joke for years too...

And I do think the good old USA should use the metric system (because it is arguably a much better system, and everybody else in the world uses it), but hey, do as you please... I'm not a dictator like Alfredo.

 

[Lindy]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

No one gives a crap about what you think about that issue.

 

[terrygood]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

The civilian model is exactly like the mill model. The mill model has the premier reticule installed. Unless you are collecting dont worry, get the civilian model. Yes the very early models had problems. They where do to rush orders from the military. That has all been corrected. You should be able to get the civilian model for around $2600 USD. The mill model with markings will cost $4000+. I have both, and once you S&B you will not go back.
Terry

 

[gabstersmoma]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: terryg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The civilian model is exactly like the mill model. The mill model has the premier reticule installed. Unless you are collecting dont worry, get the civilian model. Yes the very early models had problems. They where do to rush orders from the military. That has all been corrected. You should be able to get the civilian model for around $2600 USD. The mill model with markings will cost $4000+. I have both, and once you S&B you will not go back.
Terry </div></div>

+1 Enough said!!!! S&B all the way. The rest is semantics.

 

[valmet76]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

I have a "civilian" model (no NSN), 3-12, Gen II, MTC turrets marked "0.1 MRAD".

 

[RTH1800]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

OP,
I generally agree that the Civ and USMC are ABOUT alike. Most of the commercial scopes have a clockwise elevation and the USMC has a counter clockwise elevation and a bit different system on top of the turrent, to indicate rotation. Also has detents every 10th click. I have both and love them. My USMC has been back to Germany to fix a short in the illumination Ret. Which ran the batt down in about 36 hours. Even when off. Also corrected some other issues from when P/R was assembling them. Mine is marked on top, USMC, 8541, P/R on left side, S&B on the right. It is now a great tool, which is true of all S&B scopes. I do agree with those that say you will never go back to the other scopes when you have a S&B. I have about all of them and like the S&B best. I do not fault any of the other scopes, it is just that when I am looking through or at S&B I like it best. I would reccomend the counterclockwise 0.1 MR which can be ordered in the commericial scopes as well.

 

[Poundcake]

Re: S&B USMC Civilian scope

Judge,
I would like to answer your questions, and the suggestion of the problems with the SSDS M8541,
You referred to problems with the scope from a thread that was posted on Sniper Central over 2 years ago, I remember it well, I posted it. The issues were addressed, and corrected Marine Corps wide, and what it basically came down to was the fact that the scope was designed, built, fielded, redesigned and refielded in an extremely short period of time at a high demand. Those issues simply do not arise in the civilian market.
As for the adjustments, I love the mil turrets, once you get used to them they make everything easier, but whichever you decide on, get a reticle to match. IF I had the cash, I would get one in a heart beat.