SAC And 419 Dies

[Tokay444]

Who has done it? I've never seen it before til SAC

Pretty sure Forster has in recent history.

 

[NFshooter150]

You're talking about the bushing that have the neck and shoulder in them right

 

[Tokay444]

Yes.

 

[AllenOne1]

Who has done it? I've never seen it before til SAC

I believe the Cortina Precision sizing die is currently using that style of bushing.

 

[hairy_pineapple588]

I like this. I’m going to add the decapping mandrel now.

 

[TheOE800]

I have the Zero die, and it's terrible.
I had completely eliminated the mandrel step in my process by using a SAC .265" bushing in my Redding die with no expander, with phenomenal results.
I got the A419 die on Black Friday sale when I grabbed their press, and have had to stand on my reloading bench and pull on the handle to ripped the mandrel back through the neck, so that I didn't picky my bench off the ground. I just pin gauged both the A419 sleeve and the SAC bushing with minus pins and nominal pins. The SAC is exactly .265" as marked. a .265- pin goes through with a bearing fit. The neck in the sleeve of the A419 lets the .259- pin start and .258 nominal pin bottoms out.
I'll probably end up either modifying the sleeve, or making my own to accept SAC/Redding bushing to go into the Zero die. There's absolutely no reason to crush the neck down that much just to turn around and rip it back open.

Being new to reloading I’m curious to hear more about this.

 

[DairyDictator]

Not trying to defend the expensive ass 419 dies here but there's some issues that I don't think should be attributed to the die necessarily.

I had completely eliminated the mandrel step in my process by using a SAC .265" bushing in my Redding die with no expander, with phenomenal results.

The 419 die is explicitly not set up to do this, as most people want a mandrel to push neck thickness inconsistency to the outside of the case. If you wanted to eliminate the mandrel, you'd need a custom sleeve made with different neck dimensions.

I got the A419 die on Black Friday sale when I grabbed their press, and have had to stand on my reloading bench and pull on the handle to ripped the mandrel back through the neck, so that I didn't picky my bench off the ground.

This sounds like an improperly set up die. Even .01" or more of regular sizing won't do this. The case was probably getting jammed between the mandrel and the sleeve wall because the mandrel was set too high.

I'll probably end up either modifying the sleeve, or making my own to accept SAC/Redding bushing to go into the Zero die. There's absolutely no reason to crush the neck down that much just to turn around and rip it back open.

I think you'd be surprised how many non-bushing dies crush the neck that far. The reason is to ensure plastic deformation in the neck during the mandrel operation with all available brass and chambers. It does "overwork" brass but most who would be using this die are annealing every firing anyway so it doesn't matter.

Sounds like you have a somewhat specific use case that works really well with bushing dies, but the 419 die isn't at all set up as a bushing die. Might be better off selling it and picking up a bushing die.

 

[jthor]

Been using the SAC die with an expander mandrel installed.

 

[hairy_pineapple588]

Been using the SAC die with an expander mandrel installed.

What carriage and mandrel size?

 

[Tokay444]

Not trying to defend the expensive ass 419 dies here but there's some issues that I don't think should be attributed to the die necessarily.

The 419 die is explicitly not set up to do this, as most people want a mandrel to push neck thickness inconsistency to the outside of the case. If you wanted to eliminate the mandrel, you'd need a custom sleeve made with different neck dimensions.


This sounds like an improperly set up die. Even .01" or more of regular sizing won't do this. The case was probably getting jammed between the mandrel and the sleeve wall because the mandrel was set too high.


I think you'd be surprised how many non-bushing dies crush the neck that far. The reason is to ensure plastic deformation in the neck during the mandrel operation with all available brass and chambers. It does "overwork" brass but most who would be using this die are annealing every firing anyway so it doesn't matter.

Sounds like you have a somewhat specific use case that works really well with bushing dies, but the 419 die isn't at all set up as a bushing die. Might be better off selling it and picking up a bushing die.

I never set the A419 die to run without the mandrel and I never eluded that I did.
Please, I'm all ears. Tell me how to adjust the depth of the mandrel...
...I'll wait.
What makes you think I'd be surprised?
I know the A419 die isn't a bushing die. There's no bushing. I'm not passing a problem down the line to someone else. I have more integrity than that.
Let me ask you this. Do you have one of their dies?

 

[jthor]

What carriage and mandrel size?

6 Dasher, 223 rem and 308.
I set my die up in a similar fashion to Primal Rights.

6 Dasher with Alpha Brass.
- mandrel .240
- bushing .261

 

[DairyDictator]

I never set the A419 die to run without the mandrel and I never eluded that I did.

I know the A419 die isn't a bushing die. There's no bushing.

Your entire post is literally bitching about how the 419 die doesn't act like a bushing die.

 

[Tokay444]

Your entire post is literally bitching about how the 419 die doesn't act like a bushing die.

Not at all.
It doesn't work properly.
Tell me how to adjust the depth of the mandrel, and answer the question. Do you have one?

 

[Tokay444]

I’ve had both dies as well, my area 419 dasher die is smooth and works perfect my BR die I worry I’m going to get a case stuck eventually. I don’t think either die is producing better ammo. I actually sent my br die back to get looked at, hoping it comes back working like my dasher die. My only complaint with the sac die is I had to back mine up a good bit from the shell holder to get the shoulder bump right.

Are you seeing this? Apparently we just need to, "adjust the mandrel" says a guy who doesn’t even have one.

 

[TheOE800]

I took your meaning @Tokay444 as eliminating a separate mandrel step.

 

[Tokay444]

I took your meaning @Tokay444 as eliminating a separate mandrel step.

That’s what I had previously done, before trying the A419 die. I eliminated the need for a mandrel completely, be it in the die, or as a separate step.

 

[TheOE800]

Then my take is incorrect, sorry.

 

[Tokay444]

The A419 die crushes the neck down way more than required, and the mandrel literally gets fucking stuck. It's a known issue to everyone I know who has one.

 

[jthor]

6 Dasher, 223 rem and 308.
I set my die up in a similar fashion to Primal Rights.

6 Dasher with Alpha Brass.
- mandrel .240
- bushing .261

To further expand on this I made an excel sheet with some simple math to tell me what bushing sized to get. My mandrel is always .003” under bullet diameter for my SAC dies. All I really have to do is plug in my bullet diameter and loaded neck diameter and it spits out the bushing size I need. Just made it quick easy and lazy for myself as I slowly transition all my sizing dies to SAC.

 

[HemiPowrd]

The A419 die crushes the neck down way more than required, and the mandrel literally gets fucking stuck. It's a known issue to everyone I know who has one.

I only have the A419 6.5 Creedmoor die, but did some measurements on brass neck sizing without the mandrel installed. I use the .262 mandrel it shipped with for reference.

Hornady brass sized without the mandrel measured .259 at the neck Inside Diameter. Running another piece of fired brass through the die with the mandrel installed had almost no resistance sizing it to .262 neck ID.

Lapua brass sized without the mandrel measured .257 at the neck Inside Diameter. Running another piece of fired Lapua brass through the die with the mandrel installed had a fair amount of resistance, but not excessive, sizing it to .262 mouth ID.

I use Lapua brass and would prefer it if the neck bore of the die would size it closer to .259 neck ID before the mandrel goes through it on the downstroke. It does seem to be overworking the brass a bit, but I wouldn't call it excessive.

Given this is a 6.5 CM die and using Lapua brass, my experience may be different from others.

 

[Tokay444]

I was using it for 6BR.

 

[Vivacious Stallion]

I bought a SAC Creedmoor die probably a year and half ago and added a mandrel probably 3/4 of a year ago and don't regret the purchase. It's still just a die, but for how much I use it, it's a nice quality of life improvement over some cheaper dies I've had.

Eliminating the seperate mandrel step was probably the biggest benefit and saves significant time when loading for matches.

 

[memilanuk]

Who has done it? I've never seen it before til SAC

Neil Jones was making custom F/L sizing dies with shoulder bushings since before SAC existed as a company. For less $$$.

Only downside is that by now he has to be getting old AF, and getting replacement / additional bushings may be a problem.

 

[hairy_pineapple588]

Has anyone had a decapping pin bend/break in a Sac die? I want to grab the decapping mandrel as I decap in a separate step. Just seeing if anyone has had issues.

 

[Painterbolt]

I’ve reloaded literally thousand of rounds with mine and have never had an issue.

Has anyone had a decapping pin bend/break in a Sac die? I want to grab the decapping mandrel as I decap in a separate step. Just seeing if anyone has had issues.

 

[DairyDictator]

Has anyone had a decapping pin bend/break in a Sac die? I want to grab the decapping mandrel as I decap in a separate step. Just seeing if anyone has had issues.

Only problem I've had with the decapping mandrels is the older ones didn't have much of a chamfer to them, so primers would sometimes stick. A fair amount of time with a cordless drill and a stone you don't care about fixed it for me.

The entire mandrel is carbide including the pin, so there's no bending it, it'll just snap if it takes a decent impact so don't drop it on concrete.

 

[Chris1972]

It should be pretty well aligned by the mandrel itself. I decap separately so I don’t have one. Just talking out my ass but it makes sense.

 

[NiteQwill]

Has anyone had a decapping pin bend/break in a Sac die? I want to grab the decapping mandrel as I decap in a separate step. Just seeing if anyone has had issues.

if it breaks, SAC will replace. Don't worry about it.

 

[hairy_pineapple588]

if it breaks, SAC will replace. Don't worry about it.

Yeah I’m going to buy the decapping mandrel. Turn 3 pulls Into 1 and save time.

 

[NiteQwill]

Yeah I’m going to buy the decapping mandrel. Turn 3 pulls Into 1 and save time.

Yup. It's fantastic. I run pretty much all SAC dies and they save a tremendous amount of time and built great.

My 6GT die (older, non-modular) with mandrel sits on an automated press and has seen upwards of 20000+ rounds and it's awesome.

 

[TheOE800]

Yeah I’m going to buy the decapping mandrel. Turn 3 pulls Into 1 and save time.

I assume you’re not concerned about cleaning primer pockets or are you tumbling the brass after sizing?

 

[hairy_pineapple588]

I assume you’re not concerned about cleaning primer pockets or are you tumbling the brass after sizing?

I’ve never cleaned primer pockets.

 

[hairy_pineapple588]

I bought a SAC Creedmoor die probably a year and half ago and added a mandrel probably 3/4 of a year ago and don't regret the purchase. It's still just a die, but for how much I use it, it's a nice quality of life improvement over some cheaper dies I've had.

Eliminating the seperate mandrel step was probably the biggest benefit and saves significant time when loading for matches.

Did you get the decapping mandrel?

 

[Tokay444]

Your entire post is literally bitching about how the 419 die doesn't act like a bushing die.

Still waiting for a guy who doesn’t have the die to tell me how to adjust the mandrel.

 

[Vivacious Stallion]

Did you get the decapping mandrel?

I did, but I generally decap separately. I decap, ultrasonic clean my brass, anneal and then put them through the sizing die.

 

[hairy_pineapple588]

I did, but I generally decap separately. I decap, ultrasonic clean my brass, anneal and then put them through the sizing die.

Do you happen to mandrel new brass with that setup?

 

[Vivacious Stallion]

Do you happen to mandrel new brass with that setup?

Yes, if not just for consistency.

 

[hairy_pineapple588]

Pricey but i am sold. Very consistent and makes life a lot easier. I want one for 6.5cm