Safe Recommendations

FUNCTIONAL

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Minuteman
  • Feb 19, 2012
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    Eastern, NC
    Had my house broken into and the only thing they got were my guns. Had just started looking into gun safes to get a proper one but was too late.

    Anyway...figured I'd reach out to the hide and see what you all recommend.

    Would like more gun storage than shelving if possible (or no interior shelving/lining at all if they do that)
    10gage or better shell steel
    1hr fire rating minimum
    prefer combo lock but can live with digital
    4 side active locks
    pry proof

    trying to stay at 1500 or less delivered.

     
    Couple of things.

    Get one bigger than you'll ever think you'll need. They will fill up fast.

    Look at the warranty closely. They will all talk about them but only a few will cover shipping freight charges if you ever do send one back. Homeowners insurance may cover some but it's worth thinking about if you're looking to ship an 1100 pound safe.

    Be careful where you buy. Ask who has access to the safe at the store and might have access to the combination.

    Shipping may also be "curb" which means you get it into the house. Some companies may bring it into place for a small fee.

    I have a Heritage. Door face is 3/8" plate steel. Hinges are internal do nothing to cut or pry on.
     
    Liberty Fatboy Jr is generally easily available to buy anywhere, and too big to move even if you don't bolt it down. Not the best, but lots of space per dollar.

    I personally prefer Drake Safes in Roxboro, NC. Made from a single 1/4" steel sheet. You can have him build a smaller safe inside of a standard size if you actually fear break in for valuables that are small. Fire resistance isn't the same as the big box brands, not tested. Very tight and solid, very heavy.

    Most people are fine with something better than a gun cabinet as most thieves cannot defeat actual RSC or safes. Smash and grab is easier unless you KNOW what's in the safe is wroth a LOT. guns are generally not that great a deal to steal as they're harder to sell than jewelry or camera/laptops
     
    Sorry to hear about the burglary... that really sucks.

    Regarding a safe at your price point, I think it'll be tough to find something with a 10 gauge body and a one hour fire rating that offers much in the way of storage capacity. That said, if you're (slightly) more flexible on price than you are on steel thickness, I'd look to see if there are any Champion dealers near you; they offer a great bang-for-the-buck.

    If, however, you're more flexible on safe specs than on the price, I'd look for something from the Safe Guard line. They're a Champion brand, and are often priced similarly to the Chineseum RSCs like you'll find at Academy or Dick's, but are considerably more robust. Don't get me wrong, they offer a 12 gauge body (instead of 10) and a 45 minute fire rating... so they're close to your spec, but not quite there.
     
    Thank you guys. I'm going to take a look at the Fatboy Jr. for the cost it seems to come closest to the specs I was hoping for. I will also give Drake Safes a look since they are pretty close to me.

    Fire rating isn't a huge concern but theft is. Seems there has a been a huge spike in break ins specifically for pistols and ARs. Left the house completely untouched except for the gun cabinet, left every single bolt action and only took the Mk12 and pistols. Cops say there are a group of 5 of them doing it in my area and most of them are wanted for assault with a firearm and 2 of them wanted for shooting at police. Not exactly comforting when you know they are willing to blast you as much as you are them. Just glad no one was home.
     
    A buddy of mine is in the security system business they sell safes also. He sent me this picture the other day of a local break in, looks to be a browning safe. You get what you pay for, I got an American Security Safe from my buddy, there more expensive but well worth it. Couple things, as mentioned get a bigger safe then you think you'll need, I like the dial better then the key pad, batteries and electronics can go bad not good if you need in quick. Make sure you bolt it to the floor, a thief with a handful of golf balls can roll one right out the door. Good luck.

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    A buddy of mine is in the security system business they sell safes also. He sent me this picture the other day of a local break in, looks to be a browning safe. You get what you pay for, I got an American Security Safe from my buddy, there more expensive but well worth it. Couple things, as mentioned get a bigger safe then you think you'll need, I like the dial better then the key pad, batteries and electronics can go bad not good if you need in quick. Make sure you bolt it to the floor, a thief with a handful of golf balls can roll one right out the door. Good luck.

    My comment on this as someone that has worked as a locksmith, installed alarm systems, and has drilled open safes:

    1) It is imperative that the safe door be a true 1/2" plate steel today. 1/4" plate steel walls as wall if you can swing it. If you can't afford a 1/2" plate steel door safe, get one with 1/4" plate steel as a minimum. Do not go any thinner. This safe is an example of a product that has a door that looks thick, but just wrapped thin sheet metal around drywall. IMO, the best value in a true burglary safe is the Amsec BF series. If you have a very expensive collection, consider getting their higher rated models. The lower models are more affordable and will at least have 1/4" plate steel doors. But the BF series I consider entry level for solid protection.

    2) If you have a monitored alarm system, put a monitored smoke alarm above your safe. When burglars attack the safe it can make a lot of smoke and it will set off the alarm. Most panels will call for a fire department dispatch if the alarm goes off even if the burglar alarm side is disarmed.

    3) If you can place the safe in a closet so the walls and back are protected by the walls being present, that is good. If you can also place the safe so that the opening side goes away from the wall that is good as well. This last point means someone trying to get a crowbar into the opening edge would be hitting the wall and can't get any leverage vs. having the opening edge away from the wall if that makes sense.

    4) You may want to consider buying some "Explosives" magnetic placards to put on your safe. They are cheap and may discourage someone from attacking your safe with cutting tools that are throwing around a bunch of sparks. Even the densest moron would think twice before throwing a bunch of sparks into a safe with that kind of labeling on the door, and the placards are cheap so it can't hurt.
     

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    Great suggestions XOR. Bolting down and shoving it in a corner was part of the plan but I didn't think of #2.

    and agreed....theft is priority over fire but anything with thick steel should have at a minimum 30min for rating.

    that browning safe is one of the main reasons 10 guage steel is important to me. Anyone with $50 can buy a cut off wheel from home depot and go to town.
     
    I have not seen a Sturdy safe in person, but looking at their website they look like they also could be an option to the Amsec BF series safes. They hit the major points about lots of steel and door construction. I would definitely pay for the heavier steel upgrade in their models though if you can afford it. It all comes down to how much steel is in the door and walls for a gun safe most people will see.

    Maximum security jeweller's safes often use a composite wall. It will be a mix of steel, then a proprietary composite that is a very hard concrete with steel reinforcements and even smaller particles of drill resistant materials designed to ensnare and break drill bits. These safes have passed a Underwriter's Laboratory safe attack to obtain a true burglary rating. This is NOT the same as the UL Residential Security Container (RSC) rating which is really weak. A UL rating will be TL-15, TL-30, TRTL, etc. (Tool Resistant, Torch and Tool Resistant, etc).

    The Amsec RF series is a true burglary safe for instance that is rated by UL against burglary attacks with TL-30. That means TooL resistant for 30 minutes. But it will be expensive and heavy. I would recommend it though for those with very valuable collections.

    30 Minutes doesn't sound like a lot, but that is total working time by UL trained engineers that have access to tools and safe drawings. Meaning the timer starts when a tool touches the safe, and then is stopped when the tool is removed. So a 30 minute rating would be just about impossible for the average burglar to overcome unless they happen to get the safe out of your house and back to their garage where they have unlimited time.

    Most gun safes are not going to be UL rated (too expensive and they will be too heavy for most). But that doesn't mean you can't get good protection anyway. I just suggest people study the specs of the Amsec BF series safe as the minimum baseline to accept. The BF series is what I recommend to my own friends that want a gun safe. The list of desirable features for a gun safe are:

    - TRUE 1/2" plate steel door.

    - Heavy gauge steel walls. I prefer at least 1/4" steel for all walls if it is an option. The BF uses thinner steel, but composite construction to make a very strong wall though.

    - Poured fire insulation and not gypsum board if you can afford it. Some people use ceramic fiber which I don't think is as good as other fire insulation methods, but it has its fans.

    - Avoid fancy brass, gold, and elaborate paint jobs which are expensive and take away from the cost of security which is what is important.

    - Don't get distracted either by lots of bolts and elaborate bolt work. They just add complexity and cost. The most secure safes I've worked on have very few bolts and simple bolt works.

    Amsec makes lower rated safes with 1/4" steel doors that may fit one's budget as well. They are lower security obviously, but still much better than the average gun safe you'll find in a store or from most major manufacturers.

    One final thought as well, if you have tools in your shop where the safe is that could be used to attack the safe, you may want to strongly consider locking the tools up as well. Any kind of grinder, pry bar, hammer drills, etc. should be secured. A locking metal cabinet is better than just leaving them about if you don't want to take up safe room with them. Make the burglars bring their own tools if they want to use them against your safe. Don't hand them yours to do it!

    I'm not an Amsec salesman. It's just that I see a lot of smoke and mirrors in the gun safe world and the bad guys are getting smarter about breaking into them. Keeping guns locked up securely prevents giving anti-gunners any more reasons to try to jam legislation down our throats.
     
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    I did a lot p research and I knew I needed a big heavy duty safe. I went with the Superior Untouchable 65. Yes it cost a lot but the body is 1/4 on 5 sides and the door is 1/2 outer and 5/16 inner. The only other safe I looked at was the Grafunder. If you really want a SAFE not a Residential Security Container you need to go to safe company. Nothing you get from a box store will be a real safe. It just comes down to are you willing to put $50,000 to $75,000 worth of firearms in a $2500 to $3500 RSC I was not!!! Oh and one last thing bolt it down, two guy with the right tools will take ANY safe out of your house in minutes if its just sitting on the floor. Do you research and choose well. Good luck!!
     
    Feel for ya, been there, wish you the best in the future. Im on the fence for the Fatboy Jr as well. Finally have a proper spot, looking like a good investment.

    Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk

     
    My Cannon safe electronic lock malfunctioned, it would not lock unless I gave the safe a good hit with a rubber mallet above the touch pad. I have owned the safe for over ten years. I called Cannon and they are sending me a new electronic lock. I will never get another electronic lock safe. Anyway, if a pro wants in your safe they will get in in no time unless you have a high end safe and that will just slow them down.
     
    If you're looking at something new, and only $1,500, you won't be buying anything other than a residential security container. Which is not really for keeping bad guys out, but to keep honest people honest. In other words, it will keep your kids and/or their friends from getting in without you knowing. That's about it.

    A cheap metal cutting blade and the circular saw in your garage will rip off the entire side of such a "safe" in a couple minutes tops. A batter powered angle grinder would do the same. The door is not usually the target, but is often not much more secure. The sides, back, or top, are extremely vulnerable.

    I'm sure it's possible a drugged up burglar, extreme idiot, or someone in a panicked rush, might be discouraged. But I wouldn't bank on it.

    Even 1/4" steel sides aren't particularly effective.

    You need an alarm system and something that can keep someone out long enough for the police to respond to the alarm.

    That means something with all six sides filled with concrete containing tool breaking aggregate.

    I know this sounds expensive. And can be. Especially new rather than used. But there appear to be MANY guys on this forum with guns and glass in the six figures of worth. And I can almost guarantee your insurance will cover almost none of it without an expensive rider to your homeowner's policy. Thinking one can't afford a real safe is probably false-economy in a lot of circumstances.

    And consider that thieves often return to the same target. After all, many people replace what was stolen. Especially if insurance paid for it.

    If you want it already configured for firearms, these are what you should be looking at (I have no connection to either company):
    http://www.deansafe.com/amsec-rfx582...-gun-safe.html
    http://www.deansafe.com/amsec-rfx703...gun-safe1.html

    Please let me know if you have any questions about safes. I've done quite a lot of research over the years.
     
    I've now read some of the other responses above. From what I've read I wouldn't put too much stock in thicker steel. The cement and tool resistant matrix is where it's at.

    I don't think the Amsec BF provides a whole lot of extra protection. Two layers of sheet metal vs. one. But I believe I've read Amsec's safe guy explain the fill in between is for fire resistance not burglary. And speaking of fire resistance, let me explain why they use gypsum board. It isn't for properties such a fire resistance or insulation. The dry-wall (despite its name) contains moisture. As the safe gets hot the wallboard releases water vapor. That's what keeps everything from burning. You can see the water vapor shoot out the edges of the door when a safe is heated.

    Thus, if you want something to keep dry, you much keep it in sealed bags or containers in your safe. And why safes that use dry-wall for their fire protection are not for document storage. Document fireboxes are, if I remember correctly, insulated with beeswax in the walls and door.

    Hope this helps.
     
    Well as an update....got a 15% off Gander MTN. coupon and signed up for a credit card with them for more off. Walked out for just under $1200 with the door organizer and lights on a Fatboy JR.


    The alarm company also installed their top tier system at their expense for never notifying us the system stopped checking in months before the break in (a service we paid for). So in other words the alarm would go off but never send a signal out to notify the company/police/us. Bolted it to a slab of concrete and enclosed the safe all around. Cops are less than 5 minutes away so I'd be pretty surprised if anyone is able to get into this one.
     
    Cartman- I hear what you're saying, and agree with much of it... in principal. The long and short of it is that anyone with enough time and motivation can get into anything. Given that, the goal then has to be to make it inconvenient enough for the bad guy(s) to take your stuff that they say to hell with it and head over to your neighbor's house, where hopefully (for the bad guy), things are much easier to take. I know that's a shitty thing to say, but that's the reality of it.

    Realistically, most of your smash-and-grab kind of folks aren't going to have the expertise, patience, or testicular fortitude to spend all that much time trying to get into even an RSC. They may beat on it with a hammer for a few minutes, or perhaps try to pry it open, but beyond that, they're generally looking for an easy score. I recommend to people who have metalworking tools on premise that they take small, crucial bits of those tools, and put them in the safe... things like cutting torch/plasma cutter tips. Without the tips, those tools don't work worth a damn, and they (the tips) won't take up much room in the safe. For things like cut-off tools/angle grinders, it gets a bit more cumbersome to store the discs in the safe, but again, it's better than leaving them out where they can be used.

    The above thoughts pertain to smash-and-grab burglars... they're unlikely to travel with their own metal cutting tools, and while they may spend a few minutes trying to let themselves into an RSC, I would guess that if they can't get it done in 10 minutes or less, they're going to take what they can and hit the road. However, if you have managed to somehow attract the attention of someone a little more... specialized... in regard to safe-breaking capability, that's where the extra security features come in handy. True, a TL-rated (or better) safe would be the ideal here... but in reality, few have the wallet (or the foundation) to support a TL-rated safe with enough storage capacity for the types of gun collections that many of us have. So, you start looking for a compromise... something that offers enough storage capacity that also offers enough security for the types of threats that we're likely to face. That second part, the likelihood of threats, is where each of us has to determine not what is possible (hell, ANYthing is possible), but what is likely. There are steps that we can all take in order to reduce the likelihood that we're going to attract attention from, shall we say, "talented", burglars.

    Things like stickers... it seems like every piece of gear we buy comes with a sticker. I have a stack of them, and I'm guessing that you do, too. I don't have a single one of them on my vehicle; this is very intentional. While I'm enthusiastic about my shooting hobby, and proud of the collection of firearms and accessories that I've managed to cobble together, I don't advertise that I have any of it. Not because I don't believe in the products, but because if I don't let Joe Public know that I have those products, then Steve Burglar (Joe Public's asshole cousin) isn't likely to come looking for them. The same goes for clothing/T-shirts, though not to the same extent, IMO. Also, things like (gun) safe placement... you don't want to put it where casual visitors/workers (party attendees, plumbers, etc...) can see it, and you DAMN sure don't want it visible from the street. Ideally, it would be inside the home (as opposed to the garage), and not visible through a window. All of this speaks to "security through obscurity"; while this approach is inadequate if it is your only security measure, it is certainly viable as a layer of security. These are the sorts of things that help balance what is a realistic/likely threat against what is possible.

    Once we determine what sorts of threats are likely, we then have to look at our budget, available space (within the home), storage requirements (within the safe/RSC), and, in some cases, strength of the floor (most commonly a concern in pier-and-beam homes) in order to determine the right security solution for our firearms and/or other valuables. It's certainly easy to tell people to scour Craig's list for a used TL30x6 jeweler's safe, but the reality of it is that in terms of weight (often 5k+ pounds), capacity vs. external size, and features (typically no way to run lights/dehumidifiers), that solution is less than ideal... it offers more security than is likely to be needed (for most of us), and doesn't include a number of features that border on "gotta have" (as opposed to "nice to have") status. As is the case with nearly everything in life, it's all about a balance/compromise.