Suppressors Sandstorm recall

[Jmilera]

My sandstorm was recalled anyone else have to send theirs back?

 

[remau308]

Re: Sandstorm recall

Recalled for what?

 

[dt00083]

Re: Sandstorm recall

Did Gemtech contact you? What is the recall for?

 

[beretta989]

Re: Sandstorm recall

http://www.gem-tech.com/store/pc/viewContent.asp?idpage=6

 

[KYS]

Re: Sandstorm recall

The found that some of the internals were not fully welded and are taking them back in to finish weld they baffles. Nothing major but you need to send it back in for the upgrade.

 

[Outsydlooknin75]

Re: Sandstorm recall

Wasnt there an ad campaign pointing out that not all suppressors were made equally and not all of them had fully welded cores? This just kinda proves those ads doesnt it?

 

[124C41]

Re: Sandstorm recall

It's not just the Sandstorm, I'll have to see if my HVT is on the list.

HVT QD was on back order for 6 months. Now that I'm expecting the form 4 within the next few weeks, there is a recall...

 

[BookHound]

Re: Sandstorm recall

We should at least give Gemtech credit for identifying the problem and owning up to it then making it right. No one is perfect and there will always be something that doesn't go 100% right in manufacturing.

Mark

 

[m1garand30064]

Re: Sandstorm recall

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BookHound</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We should at least give Gemtech credit for identifying the problem and owning up to it then making it right. No one is perfect and there will always be something that doesn't go 100% right in manufacturing.

Mark </div></div>

Absolutely this. Things like this happen to every company, and it is how they react to it that should be the deciding factor in how to view them. You could chose to be like Toyota a few years ago and try to cover it up, or you could do what Johnson & Johnson did in the early 80's. Thankfully Gemtech went the Johnson & Johnson route, and while not always easy I salute them for it. It speaks highly of their management.

 

[malaga2]

Re: Sandstorm recall

Plus one on that

 

[dt00083]

Re: Sandstorm recall

Well its good to know that gemtech is taking care of the problem, Im also glad that mine is not part of the recall.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Sandstorm recall

Toyota didn't cover up anything. LaHood had to eat his own humbled pie on that one..After being forced to recall 8,000,000 cars...THIS is what the final verdict was:

http://capitolcommentary.com/2011/02/09/...leration-cases/

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/nasalife/features/nesc-toyota-study.html

http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/08/autos/nhtsa_nasa_toyota_final_report/index.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/09/business/09auto.html?pagewanted=all

Welds....imo,

No, this does not happen to every company, and certainly not to this extent. YES, this was the right way to handle it when your welding leaves a lot to be desired and your inspection/testing process appears to be worse than your welding. When THAT happens, this is the very best customer centric way to handle it.

 

[pprochnow]

Re: Sandstorm recall

Awwww crap...been waiting for 8 months now, I haven't even been able to take mine home yet - sure enough it made the list.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: Sandstorm recall

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pat98</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Awwww crap...been waiting for 8 months now, I haven't even been able to take mine home yet - sure enough it made the list.
</div></div>

They will probably appreciate getting to work on one that isn't filthy.

I agree though that's too bad.

 

[SHWILL]

Re: Sandstorm recall

All companies mess up sooner or later, it is how they handle it is what makes the difference.

 

[Wade]

Re: Sandstorm recall

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Griffin Armament</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pat98</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Awwww crap...been waiting for 8 months now, I haven't even been able to take mine home yet - sure enough it made the list.
</div></div>

They will probably appreciate getting to work on one that isn't filthy.

I agree though that's too bad. </div></div>

This seems like a good situation. They can work on it while you would not have had it anyway.

 

[G-Force911]

Re: Sandstorm recall

Once you send it back how long are they saying until you see it back

 

[louboyd]

Re: Sandstorm recall

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Satan's Sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Once you send it back how long are they saying until you see it back</div></div>

The faq at the bottom of the announcement says 2-3 weeks.

http://www.gem-tech.com/store/pc/viewContent.asp?idpage=6

 

[pprochnow]

Re: Sandstorm recall

Talked to Exeter Arms - they are going to send it off while I wait. I shouldn't bitch - at least it didnt blow up on me the first 20 through the tube. I really want some solid time behind the rig/can before hunting season comes up again.

 

[LtDan]

Re: Sandstorm recall

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lou Boyd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Satan's Sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Once you send it back how long are they saying until you see it back</div></div>

The faq at the bottom of the announcement says 2-3 weeks.

http://www.gem-tech.com/store/pc/viewContent.asp?idpage=6 </div></div>

Good luck. My Gemtech "couple of weeks" quote turned into 5 months.

 

[pprochnow]

Re: Sandstorm recall

My fingers are crossed.

 

[chooter]

Re: Sandstorm recall

Gemtech +1 for customer care and service.

 

[freerangevoter]

Re: Sandstorm recall

Whew. Mine was before the recall.

I just took the class "Suppressor History, Technology and Testing"
taught by Phil Dater, owner of Gemtec, and he is a stand-up guy.

 

[KYS]

Re: Sandstorm recall

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LtDan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lou Boyd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Satan's Sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Once you send it back how long are they saying until you see it back</div></div>

The faq at the bottom of the announcement says 2-3 weeks.

http://www.gem-tech.com/store/pc/viewContent.asp?idpage=6 </div></div>

Good luck. My Gemtech "couple of weeks" quote turned into 5 months. </div></div>

Man, they clearly don't like you very much! I had some service done by Gemtech. They paid for shipping both ways and had me done in 5 business days. When you need it their customer service is great.

 

[louboyd]

Re: Sandstorm recall

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: freerangevoter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Whew. Mine was before the recall.
I just took the class "Suppressor History, Technology and Testing"
taught by Phil Deter, owner of Gemtec, and he is a stand-up guy. </div></div>

So who was responsible for the 700+ questionably welded suppressors which went out the door? Quality control can make or break any company.

My recently acquired Sandstorm is on the recall list but I'm not sending it back. I'd rather gamble on the welds than gamble on UPS delivering it.

 

[KYS]

Re: Sandstorm recall

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lou Boyd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: freerangevoter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Whew. Mine was before the recall.
I just took the class "Suppressor History, Technology and Testing"
taught by Phil Deter, owner of Gemtec, and he is a stand-up guy. </div></div>

So who was responsible for the 800+ questionably welded suppressors which went out the door? Quality control can make or break any company.

My recently acquired Sandstorm is on the recall list but I'm not sending it back. I'd rather gamble on the welds than gamble on UPS delivering it. </div></div>

Insure it for triple the amount its worth and overnight it. Tell gemtech thats the only way you feel comfortable sending it.

 

[pwc001]

Re: Sandstorm recall

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lou Boyd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: freerangevoter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Whew. Mine was before the recall.
I just took the class "Suppressor History, Technology and Testing"
taught by Phil Deter, owner of Gemtec, and he is a stand-up guy. </div></div>

So who was responsible for the 800+ questionably welded suppressors which went out the door? Quality control can make or break any company.

My recently acquired Sandstorm is on the recall list but I'm not sending it back. I'd rather gamble on the welds than gamble on UPS delivering it. </div></div>

Insure it for triple the amount its worth and overnight it. Tell gemtech thats the only way you feel comfortable sending it. </div></div>

Good idea, but you still have to prove the value of the package before they even consider paying a claim.

 

[louboyd]

Re: Sandstorm recall

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Insure it for triple the amount its worth and overnight it. Tell gemtech thats the only way you feel comfortable sending it. </div></div>

It's Gemtec sending it back to me I'd be worried about. I've had bad luck with UPS in the Nogales area. UPS might get me the cost of the suppressor but they can't refund my 3 months waiting for Gemtech to provide the suppressor and 7 months of waiting for the BATF to approve it. They cannot replace it. Money isn't the issue at all.

I have no idea what one goes though with the BATF if you "lose" a suppressor.

I'm 66 and won't go though the hassle. At least if I keep it I'll have a conversation piece and paperweight even if it fails. From Gemtec's description the probability of it being defective is low. Since others have said Phil Deter is an upstanding guy shouldn't I assume the recall notice is truthful?

 

[KYS]

Re: Sandstorm recall

Why would they enact a recall if it was nothing but truthful? You think they are just recalling shit to inconvenience you and your shooting?

 

[freerangevoter]

Re: Sandstorm recall

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lou Boyd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: freerangevoter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Whew. Mine was before the recall.
I just took the class "Suppressor History, Technology and Testing"
taught by Phil Deter, owner of Gemtec, and he is a stand-up guy. </div></div>

So who was responsible for the 700+ questionably welded suppressors which went out the door? Quality control can make or break any company.

My recently acquired Sandstorm is on the recall list but I'm not sending it back. I'd rather gamble on the welds than gamble on UPS delivering it. </div></div>

You do have a very good point there. My company manufactured high-performance motorcycle kits. We used a 72 point "spec-sheet" and each measurement at each process had to be initialed by the machinist and also by his supervisor.

The company that I sold my business to started slacking on the spec sheet and thought they could make up for any failures with discounts and generous warranty measures. I explained to them that most of caring about the customer takes place BEFORE the sale. Not after. Building something right is more important than "making it right" after it breaks.

Having said that, Dr. Dater's presentation and manner indicated to me that Gemtec does take care to sell products that they have methodically developed.

 

[louboyd]

Re: Sandstorm recall

From the recall: "Gemtech has recently identified a few samples from a specific lot of 7.62mm suppressors that had incomplete weld penetration, and so in an abundance of caution, we are voluntarily recalling all the serial numbers from the affected lot for inspection and re-welding where necessary."

I'm counting on the honesty of that statement to weigh the odds of my suppressor being defective. "Incomplete weld penetration" is not "weren't welded". A few out of over 700 seems like decent odds if the term "a few" is used honestly.

Whether it fails or not I'll live with my decision to not return it. I've already spent more time obtaining the suppressor than it's worth to me.

 

[HPLLC]

Re: Sandstorm recall

It depends on the process I guess. They do some laser welding, and if the laser diode was worn out, that can mean things like welding - - - - instead of a straight line.

I know what laser engraving work looks like with a bad diode, and it is absolutely spotty as hell.

If the only parts of the unit that are welded are the front and rear caps to keep them from un-threading, there again, that may not really matter in that it will only manifest itself in the form of a loose cap if it ever does at all.

A call to gemtech might help explain how important that is or isn't.

 

[kel]

Re: Sandstorm recall

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lou Boyd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My recently acquired Sandstorm is on the recall list but I'm not sending it back. I'd rather gamble on the welds than gamble on UPS delivering it. </div></div>




***jmilera, Lou, (and anyone else affected in this serial number range) - you have our understanding and apologies. I know this sort of thing is an inconvenience, so have tried to make it as painless as one could hope for.

In the last week, your dealer (or the end-user, if it has been already Form-4-approved) has been called personally, emailed, and has been provided with a pre-paid, properly insured, UPS shipping label so it's at no charge to you for us to do the inspection. We encourage you to go through with the process - it shouldn't take long, and please be reassured that if anything unlikely happens like UPS losing it, there's no way we'd leave someone on the hook for that. Both UPS and GEMTECH would cover full value for any loss, to include any tax stamp costs, etc. and we could make a direct transfer to you without having to involve a dealer in this highly-unlikely, theoretical scenario. (IIRC, our various shippers have lost a total of <span style="font-style: italic">eight</span> suppressors (six of them in the same box, going to the U.S. military...) in our twenty years of doing business, so the odds are pretty against UPS fumbling yours.)


Obviously, no one's enthused with having an inspection/recall happening, but the only proper course of action is to man up and do the right thing by our clients and do whatever it takes to make this satisfactory for our customers.

Again, our corporate - and my personal - apologies. I do hope you'll let us perform the inspection and get your suppressor squared away so there won't be any uncertainty for you in its future.


Regards,




Kel

 

[Jmilera]

Re: Sandstorm recall

No problem kel thanks man keep up the good work. Maybe I will get the second one I ordered to.

 

[louboyd]

Re: Sandstorm recall

Hi Kel,
Thank you for your personal interest in this matter. I'd appreciate it if you'd answer some questions to help me make my decision on whether to send it back. I already have the the suppressor, it's not in the hands of my dealer. (BlackWeaponsArmory in Tucson)

1. What is your position at Gemtec?

2. Within the serial number range of the recalled Sandstorms, (136 of them according to the recall) how many have been inspected since the problem was discovered? How many were declared ok with no rewelding? How many are awaiting rewelding? How many have been rewelded? Were there any which were not repairable?

3. If you don't mind, could you give more information on the problem? "Incomplete weld penetration" doesn't tell the whole story. Was it an intermittent problem or continuous relative to all of those units? Were they all welded with one machine? One operator? One inspector? Any inspector? Of the 136 in the recall have any actually failed from being fired with or without being identified as defective and with or without being rewelded? Have other Sandstorms not in this recall failed while firing "suitable" ammo?. Roughly what number of the Sandstorms on the recall where already in the hands of end users before they were informed of the recall. Did any of them have failures or problems? Have the welding problems been completely diagnosed and cured for further production?

4. Does the inspection alone require disassembly and rewelding the endcaps? Is the inspection something the end user could do with a borescope? Is the inspection x-ray, ultrasound, electronic, visual, or what?

I have already used the suppressor. I had it a couple of weeks before I saw the recall on snipershide. I've not been contacted directly by Gemtec or my dealer. The ammo so far was 20 rounds of 168 grain Federal match 308 Win from an 18" DPMS LR-308. I realize that's not an exhaustive test, but I see no evidence of failure. I have several rifles with 5/8-24 threads it will fit but none harder on a suppressor than the 308 carbine. Had I not heard of the recall I would presently be quite satisfied with the Sandstorm.

I still have to decide between two alternatives. It will take most of a day to drive to the dealer then again to get it back. If it get's lost am I correct that another BATF stamp and waiting period would be required with the associated delay regardless of who pays for it? Owning a suppressor has never been a cost consideration. Only time and hassle. I didn't choose a cheap one.

The other choice is to keep it and shoot it. If it doesn't fail then all is well for everyone. If it does fail I can choose to keep it as a conversation piece (it's still a registered suppressor in any condition) or ship it to Gemtec for repair. I wouldn't expect that to be free but it should not have the wait of purchasing another suppressor. How much damage would it take to make it unrepairable? It could still get lost if it's shipped for repair but the probability of that is then multiplied by the probability of it failing at all. I've never heard of a person injured from a suppressor failure. If I was worried about that I wouldn't shoot at all.

I'm trying to make a logical decision. I no doubt have less information to go by than you, Gemtec's welders, or Gemtec's QC engineer must have. I'm still leaning toward keeping and shooting it unless you can provide facts or statistics to change my mind.

 

[kel]

Re: Sandstorm recall

Lou,

I'll try to answer as many of your questions as well as I can (keeping in mind it's a Sunday night, and I don't have access to current information to answer them all). I won't be able to answer everything, but would like to try to explain what I have the ability to, and am able to comment on.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lou Boyd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
1. What is your position at Gemtech?
</div></div>



***On the board of directors, one of the three owners. My job/business card lists me as the Government & Industry Liaison.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lou Boyd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
2. ...how many have been inspected since the problem was discovered? How many were declared ok with no rewelding? How many are awaiting rewelding? How many have been rewelded? Were there any which were not repairable?
</div></div>


***Starting backwards, none of them will be/are/were "not repairable". All of them can be inspected and corrected. I can't give a blow by blow of what is currently at our Michigan factory, as I'm in the Idaho office. I can say there have been "dozens" promptly inspected, re-welded, and sent back within the first few days, that's about as specific as I can be about a situation that just came up, not being at that location. I'm sure that most of the suppressors are just now headed our way - just this last week we made contact with our dealers and sent out UPS call tags. Everyone we've spoken to has been very understanding and respects that we're trying to do what's right by them and their customers.





<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lou Boyd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
3. If you don't mind, could you give more information on the problem? "Incomplete weld penetration" doesn't tell the whole story. Was it an intermittent problem or continuous relative to all of those units? Were they all welded with one machine?</div></div>


***All welded with one machine, yes. On that note, my understanding is that Surefire, AAC, and GEMTECH all have the same brand/model robotic welding machine. The only way to determine a continuous or intermittent problem is to have opportunity to see all the units back and make that determination.



4. Does the inspection alone require disassembly and rewelding the endcaps? Is the inspection something the end user could do with a borescope? Is the inspection x-ray, ultrasound, electronic, visual, or what?


***Disassembly and rewelding will be done. Not something an end-user could determine, even with an x-ray.




<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lou Boyd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I've not been contacted directly by Gemtech or my dealer. The ammo so far was 20 rounds of 168 grain Federal match 308 Win from an 18" DPMS LR-308. I realize that's not an exhaustive test, but I see no evidence of failure. I have several rifles with 5/8-24 threads it will fit but none harder on a suppressor than the 308 carbine. Had I not heard of the recall I would presently be quite satisfied with the Sandstorm.
</div></div>


***We have contacted every dealer that purchased directly, as well as made a general notice to all our dealer lists and made effort to get information to everyone that might have purchased them through any resellers or distributors. If we haven't yet spoken to your dealer, we *have* made efforts to do so, left documented messages, etc. and will continue to do so.

We're glad you're liking your SANDSTORM, and would like the opportunity to make sure you remain satisfied with it.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lou Boyd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I still have to decide between two alternatives. It will take most of a day to drive to the dealer then again to get it back.
</div></div>


***If you have it in your possession, there's no reason to take it to your dealer. We can receive it directly from you, and send it back directly to your home or other address you indicate for us to send it to. If there's some unique situation with UPS making delivery to your location, contact our office directly and we can work out whatever shipping arrangements are satisfactory to you.

208.939.7222 is the office phone, I'll make the office staff there aware of your concerns if you'd like to contact us. Otherwise, dropping an email directly to techstaff @ gem-tech . com and letting them know the situation and your serial number, they'll send you out information, instructions, and a prepaid UPS call tag.

Again, we understand the inconvenience, apologize for it, and would like the opportunity to put any unease behind us all, and get you up and running with shooting and having fun with your suppressor!



Kel

 

[louboyd]

Re: Sandstorm recall

Thank you Kel,

I'll call the office. I have no doubt you're trying to do what's right by me.

"I can say there have been "dozens" promptly inspected, re-welded, and sent back within the first few days"

Are you saying all of the returned suppressors are being rewelded? That's different from what the recall notice says but if that's true it makes the information I was asking for irrelevant. It also leaves me no reasonable choice but to return mine for rewelding too.

Safe shipping is the only remaining issue and it sounds like that can be worked out.

 

[beretta989]

Re: Sandstorm recall

Finally got around to checking mine its good....Currently very happy.

 

[LtDan]

Re: Sandstorm recall

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYS338</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LtDan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lou Boyd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Satan's Sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Once you send it back how long are they saying until you see it back</div></div>

The faq at the bottom of the announcement says 2-3 weeks.

http://www.gem-tech.com/store/pc/viewContent.asp?idpage=6 </div></div>

Good luck. My Gemtech "couple of weeks" quote turned into 5 months. </div></div>

Man, they clearly don't like you very much! I had some service done by Gemtech. They paid for shipping both ways and had me done in 5 business days. When you need it their customer service is great. </div></div>

I thought Dater loved me when he had me ship my whole rig to him so he could check the problem first hand, was supposed to be back by mid December.

I still need their customer service, after having my gear for five months untouched, I got it sent back. Customer service consisted of a letter of apology and some reasons (very busy, out of town,other duties...) why it was never checked. I still have an unusable HVT with less than two hundred rounds through it. I'd suck shit through a straw before purchasing another Gemtech product.

 

[Jmilera]

Re: Sandstorm recall

Anyone experiencing first round drift cold bore with gas gun and sand storm threaded suppresor?

 

[wattsdk]

Re: Sandstorm recall

I might have helped start this recall. I got my Sandstorm about Jan-2011. Shot it less that 20 times on a 300 win Remmy 5r. The interals started to rattle. Called them and they said no problem just shoot it and will stop when it gets dirtier. Had it at my gunsmith's to do a threading job in March 2011. He looked at it thru his smithing head band and asked if I knew that it had hairline cracks all they way around both end caps. About that time he threaded it on a rifle and when he went to unthread it and PING. the end cap weld broke, and the guts came out. I called Gemtech up and they said send it back. I was about 2 weeks from going to Rifles Only class, last April. They promised me to get it to me. I had to pay the shipping there. They wouldn't refund me the 25.00 bucks but sent me a Tee shirt. Woopee. That Thursday before I was to leave( that Saturday). The finally got it in the mail over night UPS. That next day the UPS driver stopped to deliver 2 other packages and said he had a overnight pacakage for me but couldn't find it. I raised some kind of Heck with UPS. On a friday afternoon about 200pm. They had every truck in greater Houston area stopped looking for my suppressor. Couldn't find it. I left the next morning and Told UPS if I didn't get it Monday, I would have to get Houston Police and the Batfe involved. Gemtech started paperwork to get me a new one free of charge including the tax stamp. I got a call Wednesday moring while I was at Rifles Only from my Local UPS driver saying some how it JUST appeared on his truck. DON'T EVER send anything important UPS. Use Fedex. I got the can. Gemtech treated me well. They did admit to me they had/have a welding issue and started using a new welding company. I know they sent my can for service work all the way to Michigan if I remember to be rewelded.