I am going to buy some high end ceramic plates and I am not sure if I should go SAPI or Shooter cut. I am 6’ tall and weight 175 lbs. If I go with a shooter 10x12 cut, am I giving up significant coverage? If I go SAPI medium, am I really giving up “that” much movement/introducing more shouldering issues?
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SAPI or Shooter?
- Thread starter Cold_Bore_88
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- body armor plate sapi
Take a look at what a plate covers. Most minimalist plates will still result in a fatal shot if you cannot get to advanced care VERY soon.
Always go with more coverage all things being equal. A good wrap around soft armor like BALCS or MBAV will dramatically increase survival as well.
Buy good plates and the weight is not an issue going bigger.
HESCO U210 is what you want, unless you are poor, then go with the M210.
Always go with more coverage all things being equal. A good wrap around soft armor like BALCS or MBAV will dramatically increase survival as well.
Buy good plates and the weight is not an issue going bigger.
HESCO U210 is what you want, unless you are poor, then go with the M210.
The area of the shooter cut 10x12 is slightly larger than a SAPI Medium. Just a different cut at the top corner. Looking at Hesco 3810s so not going cheap.
Both are minuscule unless you have the body of a 10 year old boy.
The special threat plates are a much better package for expected threats CONUS. Its what most higher end LE units run for same reason. They will be significantly lighter and thinner, especly ICW soft armor.
The special threat plates are a much better package for expected threats CONUS. Its what most higher end LE units run for same reason. They will be significantly lighter and thinner, especly ICW soft armor.
Pardon my ignorance. I am not sure what you are saying here. The size/cuts of the U210 and the others listed above would all be the same. Most of not all soft armors won’t stop standard green tip.
Again, I am no expert so my questions are purely curious. Not starting an argument. Lol.
I misread this “ICW” part. Apologies.
The main confusion on my part is the “10 year old” comment.
I may actually go with Shot Stop. After reviewing their GT2 option is seems like they have a great product. Hesco will always have the historical benefit but based on what I am seeing Shot Stop is widely respected.
Do you see the same?
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I used the shooter cut. It was easier to move my arms in.
The good news is your far more likely to be killed by crashing your vehicle vs being shot. Unless you shoot yourself in the face on purpose like many do.
What's your job?
The good news is your far more likely to be killed by crashing your vehicle vs being shot. Unless you shoot yourself in the face on purpose like many do.
What's your job?
Haha! Love it.
I work in O&G. This is purely a preparedness purchase. I want to get it before it’s not available or made illegal to own. I have steel plates now but weight, spall and comfort are major concerns.
Great graphic. Base on what I am seeing, they both offer the same level of coverage (lungs and heart) but the shooter cut gives more mobility.
This gets even worse when one considers the fact that armor tends to sag a bit in the plate carrier pockets, and that threats tend to come from oblique angles.
To your point, I wear the armor as high as possible to avoid sag. The multi curve on the Shot Stop helps promote proper placement.
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this:
In my inexperienced thought train:
Assuming door kicker is NOT your actual official job and you are not being paid to go fight bad guys, so you are the average civilian:
If your plate is good at stopping the top end .223 and let's say AK ammo, it might be better to stop there and not have the weight / movement penalty for higher end plates that can stop higher powered rifle rounds.
It's very uncommon in your running around, not looking for trouble, to encounter more than that, in a crime / terrorist event.
Generally anyone shooting something that can punch thorough more than that, is probably going to have a way to aim and probably know to hit you where those big bulky plates are not at.
I've been told lots of the folks who's profession is getting paid to go rock up on bad folks are starting to learn to aim for the head or places where the vest is not at and I'm sure many that one day are worried about having to stand up for freedom are doing the same thing.
So what you mostly need to be worried about is a criminal with a handgun or an AK, or some incel that got groomed into grabbing an AR-15 and getting all their hate for the world out in the open.
10x12 plate is miniscule compared to available target area.
Head or pelvic girdle are going to be the targets when a bad guy recognizes a plate carrier.
Head or pelvic girdle are going to be the targets when a bad guy recognizes a plate carrier.
I see what you mean now. The plates would protect “instant” or quick death zones though. IMO, I don’t think most “bad guys” will have the, the smarts, calm or the skill to shoot in unarmored areas on purpose.
I have not. I tried to stick with Hesco, Spartan and Shot Stop only because it seems like there is a lot of respect for these and a lot of reviews.
As Clint Smith says, body armor only works if your opponent knows how to aim. Just something else to consider.
Anyone have any info or links to testing done on plates at distance. In other words, at what distance does a level 3 plate stop a level 4 threat. While many plates are tested at very short range, having more specific data may help others decide if the weight over protection level is worth the trade off. Granted, face to face rifle shooting is one thing but if the target is at distance it will be different.
I have always wondered this as well. I have wondered if you could look at steel core penetration as a value (kinetic energy) and find where a .308 and .30-06 AP equal that if a green tip at 15 yards.
I ran 10x12's overseas for 2/3 deployments. I was 5'11'' - 175 at the time. I didn't have any serious issue with it. I have short torso and I couldn't DX my L plate carrier so sometimes it pinched a bit vertically on me, but an appropriate carrier shouldn't give you issues.
The argument is always mobility vs protection and I tended to, as well as everyone else in my unit, prefer mobility. The armor leaves so many holes that you still need to be fast, so sacrificing speed for not that much protection was not conducive for most guys. That being said, I think its a worthwhile investment if you have the money, I currently only have steel plate setups, which was insurance I bought 8 years ago...but damn they suck lol.
Lets put it this way...if SHTF right now... I wouldn't be wearing my plate carrier.
I'd like to get a Hesco 210 setup at some point, but its going to be minimalistic as possible. In a prepardness scenario you're more than likely going up against people without armor so you'd prefer speed over 10-15% protection. Just my $0.02
Beat feedback and insight from experience I have seen yet. I appreciate the feedback.
I hear you on the steel. I have 2 steel plates with build up spall protection weighing 9.5 lbs each. Plus a MMAC which weighs 3.5 lbs. I am looking to invest in some lighter plates and a lighter carrier for the same reason. Preparedness. Odds of use are low but I do want to give myself a reasonable chance if shot center mass. Everything else is relatively “survivable”.
I train with steel plates in a carrier - so when you put on the carrier with lightweight stuff - you hardly notice the mobility change from "naked" to with carrier on. A rifle-rated wrap-around vest makes you feel secure, but you pay the price in mobility and heat retention.
No problem. @TheGerman may be able to give better insight than me on this stuff. He's tested and used probably 10x the gear I have. But I'm pretty confident in my experience, albeit not as extensive as some.
Never once did my plate carrier make me feel secure in a firefight LOL. My training, weapon system, tactical knowledge, and the dudes next to me did though.
In my 3 deployments, no one ever took a round to the plates, although I did hear about one or two from other companies so I'm sure it happened(statistically its going to happen). But we did have dudes shot in the arm, thigh(non-arterial), throat, down through the collar bone area from above, and actually in between the front plate and side plate.
So again... mobility and speed is my thought process now, ESPECIALLY in some SHTF scenario stateside. I want to either get to legit cover to protect my whole body or I want to hit my target before I get hit...that all requires speed and mobility. Firefights aren't going to be on open flat ground. So mobility isn't just weight, but size as well. Cars, trees, logs, homes, crawling over/under shit, on top, pulling yourself up, etc... all plays a role in that.
There's a reason our fastest dude(sub 10min 2 mile) couldn't run down afghanis .... weight.
Older GWOT experience here, through the 2010’s. Steel is absolutely a no go bc of spalling.
That out of the way, I prefer a swimmers cut (what you are calling shooters cut) plate. Have been issued only Ceradyne and LTC plates, but zero complaints there. Still use LTC.
I’m 6’2, 245, lift and train 4-5 days a week. I have adequate coverage with a 10x12 swimmer and most guys my size would opt for one size down for more mobility. 11x14 is my “ true “ size and I wouid absolutely run my carrier with larger plates if I was going to be more stationary or in a rig. IMHO you don’t lose much coverage going from standard sapi to swimmer.
Regarding manufacturer, I’d stick with those on the NIJ list for accurate testing and certifications.
nij.ojp.gov
If their name isn’t on this list, their “ testing “ is dubious at best.
I’ve attached a pic of my 10x12 swimmers vs 11x14 to give you an idea of the difference in case you don’t have plates you can physically touch. Thats a L swimmer behind a M swimmer. The only really dimensional difference is the height. As you have noticed the corners are the only big difference between cuts but make a big difference if you have sizeable pecs and shoulders. Multicurve is a MUST if you’re wearing them more than an hour.
Edit: To add I agree with the above poster, a lot of the injuries I saw were bc of no side plates or where the side plate met the front plate. I always recommend you run side plates on a 2-way range even more so if you’re DA or FISHing.
That out of the way, I prefer a swimmers cut (what you are calling shooters cut) plate. Have been issued only Ceradyne and LTC plates, but zero complaints there. Still use LTC.
I’m 6’2, 245, lift and train 4-5 days a week. I have adequate coverage with a 10x12 swimmer and most guys my size would opt for one size down for more mobility. 11x14 is my “ true “ size and I wouid absolutely run my carrier with larger plates if I was going to be more stationary or in a rig. IMHO you don’t lose much coverage going from standard sapi to swimmer.
Regarding manufacturer, I’d stick with those on the NIJ list for accurate testing and certifications.
Compliant Products List: Ballistic Resistant Body Armor
NIJ has updated the ballistic resistant body armor standard.
nij.ojp.gov
If their name isn’t on this list, their “ testing “ is dubious at best.
I’ve attached a pic of my 10x12 swimmers vs 11x14 to give you an idea of the difference in case you don’t have plates you can physically touch. Thats a L swimmer behind a M swimmer. The only really dimensional difference is the height. As you have noticed the corners are the only big difference between cuts but make a big difference if you have sizeable pecs and shoulders. Multicurve is a MUST if you’re wearing them more than an hour.
Edit: To add I agree with the above poster, a lot of the injuries I saw were bc of no side plates or where the side plate met the front plate. I always recommend you run side plates on a 2-way range even more so if you’re DA or FISHing.
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Thanks for the in-depth feedback. I went with Shot Stop (on your list) shooter cut Level IV.Older GWOT experience here, through the 2010’s. Steel is absolutely a no go bc of spalling.
That out of the way, I prefer a swimmers cut (what you are calling shooters cut) plate. Have been issued only Ceradyne and LTC plates, but zero complaints there. Still use LTC.
I’m 6’2, 245, lift and train 4-5 days a week. I have adequate coverage with a 10x12 swimmer and most guys my size would opt for one size down for more mobility. 11x14 is my “ true “ size and I wouid absolutely run my carrier with larger plates if I was going to be more stationary or in a rig. IMHO you don’t lose much coverage going from standard sapi to swimmer.
Regarding manufacturer, I’d stick with those on the NIJ list for true testing and certifications.
Compliant Products List: Ballistic Resistant Body Armor
NIJ has updated the ballistic resistant body armor standard.
If their name isn’t on this list, their “ testing “ is dubious at best.
I’ve attached a pic of my 10x12 swimmers vs 11x14 to give you an idea of the difference in case you don’t have plates you can physically touch. That a L swimmer behind a M swimmer. The only really dimensional difference is the height. As you have noticed the corners are the only big difference between cuts but make a big difference if you have sizeable pecs and shoulders. Multicurve is a MUST if you’re wearing them more than an hour.
Of these 3 only Hesco and Shot Stop are worth a look imho. A high end boron carbide plate will be the best bet.
Mobility is what people often talk about. Yea Mobility matters when you are chasing Haji up and down the mountains, Where you have a squad of 12 to 40 pipe hitters with you, CAS on standby, Medivac on standby and internal paramedics/PA/DR who can keep you alive until you get to advanced care.
Think about the applications or situations you as a US civilian would use body armor. Think of the threat matrix and expected ballistics you need to protect from. Think about in more than half of those situations, there won't be advanced care or you will be walking into enemies hands where they are more likely to smoke you than treat you.
Level 4 is Heavy, bulky and not realistic since I don't plan to get raked by a PKM shooting AP 7.62x54 or a Dragonov. Black tip .308 is very rare, as is M80A1 outside of the military (This may change).
What I do expect is any flavor of 5.56/.223 up to and including M885A1, which you can buy right now of the internet in a few places. What I care about is Maximizing coverage while minimizing weight and bulk. Get the best practical coverage you can get while also staying light as you can.
A good Carrier, good plates and good soft armor are a no brainer IMO if you don't plan on dieing too fast. Even a non fatal shot can become fatal without medical treatment due to infection and if shit really does go sideways, not like you can walk into CVS for antibiotics.
Not a popular view, but for CONUS and basic home defense consider just soft armor or a IIIa plate in a carrier (1#)
You will have almost full speed and mobility, with the ability to stop pistol and mostly shotgun threats
Obviously will not stop .223 or up
But for people that are petite, older, disabled, or just on a budget, or don't want to lose speed or mobility
It is a compromise that favors the lesser armor
The newer lightweight plates might change that equation, but for some people even 7 pounds on their torso is going to slow them down a lot
For others, 40 pounds isn't going to slow them down too much indoors
Your money, your body, your gun fight
You will have almost full speed and mobility, with the ability to stop pistol and mostly shotgun threats
Obviously will not stop .223 or up
But for people that are petite, older, disabled, or just on a budget, or don't want to lose speed or mobility
It is a compromise that favors the lesser armor
The newer lightweight plates might change that equation, but for some people even 7 pounds on their torso is going to slow them down a lot
For others, 40 pounds isn't going to slow them down too much indoors
Your money, your body, your gun fight
LOL.
.223 is by far the most prolific rifle round and there are Tens of Millions of Ar15's in circulation, much more than any other rifle/carbine in the US.
If you can't wear #15-20lbs of armor/carrier then you are going to die fast anyway.
- Nov 3, 2010
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I’d be more worried about some reloaded M2AP projectiles than I would M855A1. M2AP is WAY cheaper and easier to find than 855a1 in my limited time ever spent looking for either.
Seniors, disabled, petite females, etc
Different people need different options
Not everyone can rack the slide of a 9mm handgun
Doesn't mean they should just lie down and accept defeat. Just adapt with a less optimal toolset and do the best they can with what they have.
Not everyone is fully kitted out with NODs and the best guns/optics for basic home defense. Many people haven't the budget, training, or storage to make use of full kit.
A $5 flashlight and $250 revolver is still better than nothing.
In that case - I would recommend $300 worth of additional food - before body armor.
I’ve got 4 cans of Swiss 885 in case any of you armored faggots show up at my house during the Tribulation.
I practice pelvic girdle & head shots.I’ve got 4 cans of Swiss 885 in case any of you armored faggots show up at my house during the Tribulation.
You would be lucky to be in front of my Canon Powershot.
My head shots could make you famous!
Recent events have shown that while handgun is probably the most common threat, .223 or an AK is something you should be planning for, especially as the .223 has become the weapon of choice for "random" Incel types.
This is important stuff. Find your collarbone, check that you are wearing the plate high enough. Almost no one (and I mean even deployed military) does because it's a pain, hard to get your head through the hole at the top, etc.
This gets even worse when one considers the fact that armor tends to sag a bit in the plate carrier pockets, and that threats tend to come from oblique angles.
I’ve got 4 cans of Swiss 885 in case any of you armored faggots show up at my house during the Tribulation.
If I show up at your house and squeal the Snipers Hide mating call I expect a warm cup of coffee
Whats more likely? FINDING M2 black tip bullets, then having t loading them and having to shoot out of a 30 cal rifle of some sort.
OR.
Pick up one of the tens of millions of AR'15s, Buy some M885A1 and shoot it.
https://sharkarms.com/ Has had it in stock for the last year. Anyone can buy it and you can find it cheaper elsewhere. $90 for a mag of fuck your peasant armor is a cheap price to pay to win a gunfight.
You should pay attention to history.
Those people end up dead, as slaves or as fuck toys before becoming dead or slaves.
An invalid will not last long in any time of remote survival situation. There won't be excess resources to devote to someone who can't take care of themselves.
Its a fact people need to come to grips with. If you want to have any chance of survival, you will need every advantage you can get.
- Nov 3, 2010
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What’s harder to believe is the number of people that think when shit goes south there won’t be people on both sides that have been hoarding and prepping for this shit.
Nearly impossible to find and RIDICULOUS prices of M855a1, or surplus M2AP that can be found at almost any military based show/sale. And which one is restricted to civy sales and requires digging? Did I mention the M2AP surplus is exempt from oversight of big brother. Does 855a1 fall into that category?
I don't know how long they'll last when the SHTF, but a few Boomers with dad's Garand and stash of M2AP are going to put more than their fair share of wannabes in the ground. (Too bad their Greatest Generation parents aren't still around, or else the battlefield would have been way more interesting.) And then there will be the guys who wear the proper plates properly, and die a long agonizing death from sepsis (or a very short death from a hit to all the arteries that aren't covered).
While I wouldn't be walking around naked, I have a fairly clear idea of how much armor will do in a situation where advanced trauma care is not available within minutes, and this certainly makes the idea of carrying an extra 20lbs somewhat less attractive.
While I wouldn't be walking around naked, I have a fairly clear idea of how much armor will do in a situation where advanced trauma care is not available within minutes, and this certainly makes the idea of carrying an extra 20lbs somewhat less attractive.
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Most will be dead in less than a week when they can't get their insulin and meds. Fat Old and reliant on meds....... not really worried.
Always shooter or some sort of curve; just be careful on some of the extreme or 'triple' curved plates as they bend quite a bit and will not fit a lot of people because they won't lay on your chest, but rather, the ends of the plate with sit on it as a pressure point.
SAPI is basically almost flat. Shooter has a curve. Curve wears better as well as clips off the size of the plate that hinders you from getting the stock into the sweet spot on your upper shoulder.
SAPI is basically almost flat. Shooter has a curve. Curve wears better as well as clips off the size of the plate that hinders you from getting the stock into the sweet spot on your upper shoulder.
On paper the Shooter's Cut 10x12 (well, Swimmer's really) helps with -- well -- swimming and shouldering your rifle. On paper. Everyone's geometry is a bit different and you may go through a half-dozen or more plates until you find something that works for you.
I've been issued everything from ESAPIs to LTCs and Ceradynes as well as some goofier geometry plates by VelSys and always go back to Hesco's. 3810 or U210 minimum for sure.
Make sure you get multi-curves, they're a bit more comfortable, and it's likely the way I'm shaped and have been shooting but I'm fine with SAPI's. As long as you're investing in an equally quality carrier that fits you and your plate and wear the plate correctly (positioning the top of the plate right below the suprasternal notch) you should be fine.
Get side plates as well that match whatever main plates you get. Hesco pairs them off but as long as they're the right level of protection you will be fine.
You could get even crazier and look into a LAP plate (dickplate, the big triangle one), an abdominal plate, and/or something like the Crye Blast Belt which has soft armor to cover your mushier areas. I rock a blast belt because I dislike the queer 2-piece setups and like a good war belt I can spin around in a vehicle but anything other than an abdominal plate or a dangler worn inside the plate bag with an insert sucks ass in a vehicle.
The most important thing though is not getting shot. Conflict avoidance and all that.
I've been issued everything from ESAPIs to LTCs and Ceradynes as well as some goofier geometry plates by VelSys and always go back to Hesco's. 3810 or U210 minimum for sure.
Make sure you get multi-curves, they're a bit more comfortable, and it's likely the way I'm shaped and have been shooting but I'm fine with SAPI's. As long as you're investing in an equally quality carrier that fits you and your plate and wear the plate correctly (positioning the top of the plate right below the suprasternal notch) you should be fine.
Get side plates as well that match whatever main plates you get. Hesco pairs them off but as long as they're the right level of protection you will be fine.
You could get even crazier and look into a LAP plate (dickplate, the big triangle one), an abdominal plate, and/or something like the Crye Blast Belt which has soft armor to cover your mushier areas. I rock a blast belt because I dislike the queer 2-piece setups and like a good war belt I can spin around in a vehicle but anything other than an abdominal plate or a dangler worn inside the plate bag with an insert sucks ass in a vehicle.
The most important thing though is not getting shot. Conflict avoidance and all that.
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