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Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

K

Kevin1

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 26, 2011
526
144
Allen, TX, USA
#1
Probably not
grin.gif



But more seriously… I’m reading many people saying “my rifle shoots 0.5 MOA all day long” and many other saying that they are not objective. I’m trying to develop a load for my 308 and wanted to get your impressions on these groupings.
First I cleaned the rifle with Hoopes 9 copper sovent, followed by JB Bore Bright, Hoppe’s elit gun oil, dry patch. The barrel wasn’t clean to the bear metal (obvious trace of copper still remaining)
I shot the first 3 shots to sight the scope.
Then shot the following groups in sequence (1 to 7) without cleaning the rifle:
Rifle: Savage 10FP 308 (everything stock) with SS 10X42 shooting 100 yards off sand bags.
Bullets A-Max 168G
Powder IMR 4064
Primer CCI no.200
Brass Federal GM (except grouping 6 that was with Hornady Match)

Grouping in sequence (1 to 7):

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/833/dsc3353l.jpg/


1- 3 shots: 40 G powder, Grouping 2.5”
2- 5 shots: 40 G powder, Grouping 1.45”
3- 5 shots: 42 G powder, Grouping 1.03”
4- 5 shots: 40 G powder, Grouping 0.7” (first 4 bullets in the same hole)
5- 5 shots: 42 G powder, Grouping 0.53”
6- 3 shots: 40 G powder, Grouping 0.58”
7- 7 shots: 40 G powder, Grouping 0.78”


I haven’t started playing with the seating depth as I’m first trying to find the powder quantity the rifle likes best.
Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle? Personally I don’t think it is. But I would really appreciate reading your comments on how can I improve the accuracy of this rifle.




 
#2
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

I've read a lot of good things about this rifle and from what I understand, it's one of the few production rifles with a test target and a performance guarentee. Another few boxes and she'll be broken in. Also, try other ammo brands and bullet weights to truely find out what it likes. It could be a .5 gun if you do your part.
 
#3
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

People usually just remember the best group of the day since it's the best. Take this: I have a gun that I shoot 3 days a week 5 groups a day one group a day is .5 the other 4 is .8 so that means out of 15 groups a week 3 are .5. Does that make it a .5 moa all day?
 
#4
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

My 10FP with 175 SMK's, 43.5 grains of Varget seated to 2.815 has shot several 100yd 5 rd groups under 1/2" and none over 3/4" so far. I have not had good luck from the A-Max bullets out of my rifle but it really likes the 168 and 175SMK (nothing against the Hornady bullets, my friends 300NM shoots 208 A Max VERY well).
 
#5
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

Try taking your best 2 or 3 grouping loads and shoot 3 groups from each load and see what is the most consistent for you. Also try those best grouping loads at 300 yards and see if the grouping is consistent with distance. You can also do a latter test with a good load adjusting the seating depths and see if you are able to tighten your group up.
 
#6
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Probably not
grin.gif



But more seriously… I’m reading many people saying “my rifle shoots 0.5 MOA all day long” and many other saying that they are not objective.


</div></div>

I have called folks on this with their 500$ bone stock 1/2moa all day rifles

I said ok I put up 10K and you do, we make an appointment 2 weeks out, your range or mine 200yds, 50 rds, 1 inch targets, 1 hour, 5 groups of 10, 10 groups of 5 or whatever, all shots touch the target; loser also pays transportation, this is more like 5/8 moa but no one ever wanted my money

apparently everyone with those rifles/skills is independently wealthy, unless they are FOS ------my gut tells me it is the 2nd option
 
#7
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

In my experience the Amaxs in 308 are not as accurate as the SMKs. I never had a problem getting 1/2moa in my 10FP. My go to load was 47.2gr 2000MR behind a 175SMK in a WIN case with CCI primer. Try a different powder. Varget is stable and very consistent. I have used it a lot to. Also you mentioned cleaning the barrel. My 10FP always shot better on a dirty bore. This debate will forever go on but my opinion is clean it when you loose accuracy. Im sure you can obtain 1/2 moa with you rifle with a little work. Try different powders, measure you lands and adjust depth and so on. You really havent worked with it enough to know the capabilities it doesnt sound like. As far as the accuracy of my Savage and the others I have shot. I am happy as hell with it. Dont need anything more and will not spend the money chasing any further accuracy. Let the debate continue with this but thats where I stand.
 
#8
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

Try varget behind the 168 Amax at about 44.5 to 45.5gr and see where that gets you. I found 44.5gr varget with the Amax was a superb load in my 10fp. I loaded it alittle long at 2.825 (i think) but that was jamming it .010" into the lands. You'll have to check your rifle to see where it meets the lands, but even at a standard 2.800 it shot very good groups.
 
#9
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

Apparently Varget seems to have the favor over the IMR 4064 (is this the Hodgdon Varget?)? Also I have found that it’s easier to measure the OAL with A-Max. The tip of the SMK is a little irregular making the measurement less consistent. I’m going to do some long range shooting this Thursday and will try the SMK 175 and A-Max 168 with Varget.
BTW , I have also noticed that the rifle shoots better with a dirty barrel. You can see that the groupings get better after the third series.
 
#11
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

I just looked this up the loads in my Sierra reloading manual.
How come you are all exceeding the max loads in the manual? The max load for Varget and SMK 175G is 41.7G and it seems to have less velocity compared to IMR4064.

Sierra reloading manual for SMK 175G:
Varget Max load 41.7 G for 2500 velocity
IMR4064 Max load 42.8 G for 2600 velocity
 
#12
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

I think you're already well into the max accuracy regime with the NIB rifle.

Enjoy what you have and concentrate on minimizing unnecessary bore wear, which additional load development would probably add, and probably wthout any really appreciable gains.

I think IMR-4064 is an ideal prepellent for .308 loads with from 147gr to 175gr bullets.

Try commercial brass (I used Rem), 175SMKs and 42.2gr IMR-4064. Match primers if you must, but I got by fine with WLR's. Good for both the 10FP and the M1A. If not ideal, keep development to a minimum, as I suggested above. This was developed as a reliable 1Kyd supersonic load in the M1A/M14.

More than this is not needed, and may not be wise.

Greg
 
#15
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

Kevin if you learn how to read pressure signs on your case you will find almost every MAX load in most any reloading manual is below MAX, true MAX anyway they have to put a safety in there for simple people. You will almost, Not always but almost always be able to push well beyond the MAX of any manual unless you get an old one. You just creep up to your rifles max and back off a little then start looking for the magic.
 
#16
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

While loading above max is true and alot of people on here do it. You really need to learn how to read brass flow before you try to do that. I believe the load that I gave you for your 168gr amax is not over max...if I remember right. As you go higher in bullet weight, the less powder charge there will be due to pressures. Same is said for loading into the lands (jammed) or loading out of the lands (jumped), it will change the initial pressure and where pressure may spike or peak.
I wouldn't get crazy over max unless I was confident in my ability to see signs of pressure when they first start and not just when it blows up!
 
#17
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TacticalJ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While loading above max is true and alot of people on here do it. You really need to learn how to read brass flow before you try to do that. I believe the load that I gave you for your 168gr amax is not over max...if I remember right. As you go higher in bullet weight, the less powder charge there will be due to pressures. Same is said for loading into the lands (jammed) or loading out of the lands (jumped), it will change the initial pressure and where pressure may spike or peak.
I wouldn't get crazy over max unless I was confident in my ability to see signs of pressure when they first start and not just when it blows up! </div></div>

According to Sierra, for the 168G bullet the max Varget load is 43.5G.
http://www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/f/sierra308Win.pdf

Now I'm not very experienced and don't plan on finding the max load of my rifle.I just don't to reduce the barrel or the rifle's lif. But I think I will still try your load of 44.5 G of Varget with the 168 Amax with 2.8 OAL, as it seems pretty popular and safe for the rifle.
 
#18
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

Just bought a pound of Varget powder and on the box it says 46gr is the max load for a 168 gr SMK (I suppose it should be the same for 168gr AMAX).
I also bought some new Winchester brasses (I'm hopping to get more consistency compared to my Honrady and FGM brasses) and another box of 168gr A-Max bullets (I already have some 175gr SMK too).

I'm going to reload some rounds and take into consideration all your above advices.

This savage might not be a sub 0.5 MOA all day long rifle yet, but I will make sure it becomes one (if developing a load is not enough, I'll change the stock, and then will change the barrel. It's going to be a journey and I love it.)
 
#19
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

Not trying to hijack but my lyamn manual says 175 hpbt
Varget start at 40gr max 45.2
Ive been loading that for a while now with good results
 
#20
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

Consider this. Hodgdon sells powder, so it might make sense for them to be somewhat less conservative about their data. The other folks don't, and may be a tad leery of assuming anything, including consistency, about another maker's products. Varget, for instance?

For one thing, whatever I read on a particular bottle, I tend to only believe about that bottle. Assumptions can be hazardous when you're building what can potentially be little bombs.

In any case, no data is spot on for every barrel. Some judicious caution is in order, along with some close observation of pressure signs any time you're loading at or near anybody's published maximum load data. They don't know, I don't know, and I suspect you're kinda unsure yourself until the signs give you a closer estimate. So work in smaller steps when near the limits of published max (and min).

Nearly twenty years of handloading has taught me the value of a conservative approach. With considerable respect for other opinions, mine is that max loads are a poor substitute for a more capable chambering.

When you move out of the yellow and into the red, the first tradeoff relates directly bore life. I spent most of those twenty years in a very poor position to be able to replace a burnt barrel. As a result, I am only now reaching a point where I suspect my first one may be due.

My considered opinion is that max loads, hot loads, whatever you call them; they are not really necessary, and that many of the advantages one expects are ephemeral.

Velocity is not about getting all you can. For me, it's a lot more about getting to the target at or around 1300fps. Any more is a serious waste of bore life, and a bit less may still be adequate; i intentionally build some shrinkability into that estmate. If your chosen chambering can only achieve that with stiff flogging, maybe you have the wrong chambering.

My approach to improving on a chambering is to step down bullet diameter. My choice would be to replace an inadequate .30-'06 with a .280 Rem, and an inadequate .308 with a .260 Rem. When I choose test loads, I will consult various sets of data, and will not exceed the lowest published max until vary cautios pressure testing says I cna go further [i[with my particular rifle[/i]. I've been watching pressure signs for nigh on twenty years, and I'm <span style="font-style: italic">no</span> expert.

Others are perfectly free to do otherwise, but I have taken some time to learn how to like my particular approach.

Greg
 
#21
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

When I first got my FCP-K, I spent a great deal of time working up loads. Initially with ultramax match, it was around 1moa. I got into reloading and used almost every match bullet. After playing around with varget and amaxs I was able to get a load that would shoot under .5MOA but the ergonomics sucked so bad that I didn't usually get those groups. .75MOA average. I swapped stocks, trigger, bedded and .5 is more my average. 44.2gr varget, 168amax, lapua brass, FGGM primer, 2.800 COAL and that should shoot pretty good. I'm tired of the 308 anyway, time to get out the nut wrench and swap the barrel.
 
#22
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

I'd suggest the 7-08/.260; you may even be able to resize your used brass. Neck turning may be necessary initially, though.

Greg
 
#23
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

Throwing out your 2.5" group as an outlier and averaging your 6 others your at an average of .84" MOA after your first range session...If that is outside to outside measurement, subtract .308 for bullet diameter and your at .53 MOA...nothing to sneeze at either way. I'm about 90% sure that any 10-110FP that left the factory, if broken in right and having had a decent load development should be a sub MOA gun...a finely tuned gun even better...

Like a few above said...play around with the load and bullets...I've had real good luck with Sierra 168gr BTHP Match Kings, they make a damned fine hunting load as well accurate and EXPLOSIVE on deer and hogs...I've never had one take more than a step after being hit...most drop like you turned off a switch...
 
#24
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just bought a pound of Varget powder and on the box it says 46gr is the max load for a 168 gr SMK (I suppose it should be the same for 168gr AMAX).
I also bought some new Winchester brasses (I'm hopping to get more consistency compared to my Honrady and FGM brasses) and another box of 168gr A-Max bullets (I already have some 175gr SMK too).

I'm going to reload some rounds and take into consideration all your above advices.

This savage might not be a sub 0.5 MOA all day long rifle yet, but I will make sure it becomes one (if developing a load is not enough, I'll change the stock, and then will change the barrel. It's going to be a journey and I love it.) </div></div>

I tried Varget and SMK 175 with Lapua brass. I didn’t get much better results. I wonder if it’s not because the Lapua brasses were brand new. I suppose a once fired brass would shoot better than a brand new. I did like Varget though. I’m not sure that it’s more accurate than IMR 4064, but it requires less case capacity (especially with Lapua brass that has less capacity than Winchester brass) and is easier to meter.
At this point I don’t think this gun is a consistent sub 0.5MOA. I got many groups with the first 4 shots in the same hole and the 5th shot expanding the grouping size from 0.3 to 0.7. That’s why I’m replacing the stock with a B&C A2 (I’ll receive it this coming Friday).
 
#25
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

I'm not sure about a bone stock Savage shooting .5 MOA, I frequent savageshooters.com a lot and I've never read anything of that sort. I have read, however, of set ups that cost well below 1k that shoot consistently .5 MOA, so with a few upgrades you can get a very accurate rifle.

As for me, I'm not there yet, I shoot somewhere in the 3/4 MOA area, with a sub .5 MOA coming once in a while, would probably be a bit better if I do my part. Also, as it stands my Savage is still bone stock, I'm still waiting for my Stockade stock and other accessories to add to the rifle, so it might bet better.

A note, I shoot from a bipod, and the flex on the stock is so bad that with the bipod, the stock touches the barrel. This might have a negative affect on my accuracy, it might not, I'm just throwing that out there.
 
#26
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

Look at group 4. You said 1st 4 in same hole. Sounds like the rifle is doing fine, the one flier was more than likely you. I have done the same with my 10fp in 308 and know that the gun can shoot better than I can.
 
#27
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

Coug,
just a bit of advice from someone who does know how to read pressure signs.

If you are basing good/bad (ie: needs more or less powder)based on what your brass looks like, then you are showing complete ignorance. The only way to know your true pressure is either a crusher device (rather crude) or a piezo transducer properly calibrated to the specific unfired brass you are using. If you are getting pressure rings, flat primers, sticky cases, etc, then you have problems. It can be because of your powder charge OR in your brass preparation. How do I know this? I used to manufacture and test ammunition for a living.

Please don't go around telling people to ignore the loading manuals. That's how people get hurt. As Greg alluded to, accuracy always beats velocity.

Now go read the thread on stuck cases in the gunsmithing section...

Just my (experienced) 2 cents worth...
 
#28
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just bought a pound of Varget powder and on the box it says 46gr is the max load for a 168 gr SMK (I suppose it should be the same for 168gr AMAX).
I also bought some new Winchester brasses (I'm hopping to get more consistency compared to my Honrady and FGM brasses) and another box of 168gr A-Max bullets (I already have some 175gr SMK too).

I'm going to reload some rounds and take into consideration all your above advices.


This savage might not be a sub 0.5 MOA all day long rifle yet, but I will make sure it becomes one (if developing a load is not enough, I'll change the stock, and then will change the barrel. It's going to be a journey and I love it.) </div></div>

I tried Varget and SMK 175 with Lapua brass. I didn’t get much better results. I wonder if it’s not because the Lapua brasses were brand new. I suppose a once fired brass would shoot better than a brand new. I did like Varget though. I’m not sure that it’s more accurate than IMR 4064, but it requires less case capacity (especially with Lapua brass that has less capacity than Winchester brass) and is easier to meter.
At this point I don’t think this gun is a consistent sub 0.5MOA. I got many groups with the first 4 shots in the same hole and the 5th shot expanding the grouping size from 0.3 to 0.7. That’s why I’m replacing the stock with a B&C A2 (I’ll receive it this coming Friday).
</div></div>


I think I now have my "sub 0.5 MOA all day long" rifle.
I went shooting with my new B&C stock and the following load:
41g Varget, 175SMK, Lapua once fired brasses (first 3 grouping on the target, the forth is with IMR).

Pics of target and rifle

http://imageshack.us/g/62/dsc3580.jpg/

Average grouping is 0.62 with no flyers (all grouping are 5 shots).
Very nice overall consistency.

BTW I love the look and the feel of that B&C stock.

Considering that the shooting conditions were less than ideal and that I have not done much of load development, I think this rifle is now a sub 0.5 all the long rifle.


 
#29
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

Shouldn't a "sub 0.5 MOA all day long" rifle actually shoot sub 0.5 MOA groups? Maybe even one group, if you are going to say it is "capable" of sub .5 MOA accuracy?

At the end of the day, whether that gun and ammunition combination shoots .5 or slightly more at 100 yards shouldn't concern you too much. If you arrive at a combination that can deliver, or close thereto, minute of angle accuracy from zero to 1000 yards, is far more important.

I don't want to discourage you too much here. I agree it is "possible" that gun may be a sub .5 rifle; its just that it hasn't demonstrated that yet and realistic assessment of how the rifle and load development is actually performing is necessary. A great deal of the .5 all day long claims made, but not supported by target photos, that we read about are based on self delusion I suspect.
 
#30
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KIMO</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shouldn't a "sub 0.5 MOA all day long" rifle actually shoot sub 0.5 MOA groups? Maybe even one group, if you are going to say it is "capable" of sub .5 MOA accuracy?

At the end of the day, whether that gun and ammunition combination shoots .5 or slightly more at 100 yards shouldn't concern you too much. If you arrive at a combination that can deliver, or close thereto, minute of angle accuracy from zero to 1000 yards, is far more important.

I don't want to discourage you too much here. I agree it is "possible" that gun may be a sub .5 rifle; its just that it hasn't demonstrated that yet and realistic assessment of how the rifle and load development is actually performing is necessary. A great deal of the .5 all day long claims made, but not supported by target photos, that we read about are based on self delusion I suspect. </div></div>

I totally agree with you. It’s a possible sub 0.5 moa candidate but It has not yet demonstrated itself.
That’s why I’m saying <span style="font-weight: bold">I think</span> this rifle is now a sub 0.5 all the long rifle.
I just wanted to point out that after changing the stock; I did notice an improvement in the overall accuracy. Before, I was pretty sure that this isn’t a sub 0.5 MOA rifle. But with the new stock and only 1 trip to the range (as I mentioned, less than ideal condition), it looks very promising. I believe that with just a little load development this rifle could shoot consistency sub 0.5 moa grouping. But I could be wrong. Let’s wait and see how it shoots next time.
 
#32
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kevin1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just bought a pound of Varget powder and on the box it says 46gr is the max load for a 168 gr SMK (I suppose it should be the same for 168gr AMAX).
I also bought some new Winchester brasses (I'm hopping to get more consistency compared to my Honrady and FGM brasses) and another box of 168gr A-Max bullets (I already have some 175gr SMK too).

I'm going to reload some rounds and take into consideration all your above advices.

This savage might not be a sub 0.5 MOA all day long rifle yet, but I will make sure it becomes one (if developing a load is not enough, I'll change the stock, and then will change the barrel. It's going to be a journey and I love it.) </div></div>


If someone has QL, they can give you a real close number.. ive learned thus far field data can not be replaced with IT or hear-say. It only cost the shooter a few loads to find out what your rifle really likes....
 
#33
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

I have read of bone stock sub .5 MOA FCPs in various places. But mine isn't one of them. It shoots sub MOA with almost any ammo and will print .75 MOA with handloads all the way to 600 yards every time out. I have had one or two five-shot .550" - .600" groups when the planets aligned, but I wouldn't call a stock FCP/FP a .5 MOA rifle. But I'm not a .5 MOA shooter either.
laugh.gif


This reminds me of all the 1 MOA Saiga 308s I read about, yet with barrel work and handloads mine will not come anywhere close to that. Nor will anyone else's once you get them on an actual range.

IMHO a Savage FP/FCP is one of the best precision rifles you can buy for less than $800, and one that will occasionally dip into the 1/2 MOA range when the shooter is having a good day. But it ain't no .5 MOA weapon out of the box.
 
#34
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

About loading for the FP/FCP ...

I found my max load with IMR 4895 by accident. At about 44+ grains of 4895 I started tasting powder and the bolt gets heavy when jacking the case out. The last Georgia Arms match ammo I bought actually stuck the bolt hard and required a rubber mallet to open the bolt (accurate as holy hell though).

With 168gr Amaxes and SMKs there seems to be two accuracy nodes with my rifle. One around the 41gr mark and another just above 43gr. Yours is likely similar. No reason to max out a load with any powder for the FCP.
 
#35
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

I went to the range to try some new loads to finally see if this rifle is a sub 0.5 MOA or not.
I have also the target pic. I have intentionally included all the targets and load data, without hand picking only good groupings and pretending this rifle is a sub 0.5 MOA all day long gun.

I was using a bipod with rear sand bag.

The good:
I have found a load that performs well.
Lapua brass, 41gr Varget, 175 SMK OAL 2.81
With that load, it’s a consistent 0.59 MOA (even with cold and clean bore) all day long rifle. It’s not a sub 0.5 MOA, but it’s good enough for now.

The bad:
I’m hitting a wall at 0.59 MOA (average grouping). Even though today was very windy; I think I have reached the accuracy limit. I’m not sure if it’s the equipment, or my own ability to shoot better. I did get some sub 0.5 MOA groupings, but not enough to consider it consistent. I’ll probably stop developing additional loads and shooting this rifle at 100 yards just to make it shoot sub 0.5. With what I already have, I’ll start shooting at longer range.


 
#36
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

Have you tried using the Optimal Charge Weight method ?

I just shot some similar rounds to these in a 700-5R today so 44-46gr of Varget should be in the ball park for you.

45.4 yielded .464 MOA
 
#37
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

A good quality stock and bedding job might help out a bit. It did in my case anyway. Brought my gun down from a .75MOA gun to a .4MOA gun. For any stock rifle anything less than 1MOA is pretty acceptable. I would be happy with what you have and go stretch it's legs!
 
#38
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

I have 2 Model 12's and they are as different as night and day. One bullets sit .003 off the lands the other they sit .006 and they shoot clover leafs at a 100 if I do my part. I think most rifle will out shoot their owners hands down. the .5 group is a so what show my it does that at 1000 yds. all day long now I'm impressed.
 
#39
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

Kevin1:

While I respect your conservative approach, I REALLY think you may be leaving accuracy on the table with the rather light loads your experimenting with. I have run thousands and thousands of 175s out of my 10fp with 45.5gr Varget. Max with my rifle is 46. I'm not suggesting you go out and load 45+, but a couple of ladders that go higher than you are now might really help you identify some excellent charge weights. Many 308s shoot best with rather stiff charges of Varget. Mine shoots so-so up to about 44, and just gets tighter and tighter the higher I go. Mine, at 45.5gr, will do bugholes at 100 yards - and thats with a 5000+ round barrel.
 
#40
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

Turbo54 -- I agree .. my rifle did so so up to 44 gr. of Varget. When I hit 44.5 gn. it was locked on-I was making a dime hole with a string of 10 shots. when I went up to 45 -- I did not see any visible difference at 100 or 200 yards .. so I backed off to 44.5. I currently use 175 SML Lapua brass and Federal 210M.

-K
 
#41
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

The reason of my “conservative approach” is that the max load for 175 SMK is 41.7gr (Sierra handbook).
But from what I see everybody is putting 44-46 gr with 175gr SMK. I have already tried 42.5gr in Lapua brasses, and I thought I saw some flat primers (sign of high pressure). But again I’m not sure how good I am in reading those signs. All I know is that past 42gr, the powder gets compressed in Lapua brasses.
So what should I do? Put directly 45 gr (+/- 0.5) and see how it goes?
 
#42
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

Here is a picture of my Hodgdon manual for 308 with 175smk:

1327293480.jpg

Sierra's manual is FAMOUSLY conservative - don't know why, but it is. They always have the lowest charges listed of anybody. Maybe their lawyers aren't as good? Who knows?

Here is a picture of an overpressured cartridge. This is bad (not death or anything - but to be avoided). What you're looking at is the raised circle mark on the casehead at ~3 o'clock, which was caused by the brass literally flowing into the ejector hole in the boltface. This one is rather severe, as you can catch your fingernail on it. Note this came out of a Savage model 10! The circle would be larger in diameter if it came out of a Remington. A less severe "ejector mark" might only leave a shiny circle. You sometimes have to change your viewing angle and catch the light just right to notice the less severe ones. When the ejector is lined up with the writing on the casehead, it can also be more difficult to notice.

1327293361.jpg


This particular one did not exhibot the infamous "sticky bolt lift". When the brass REALLY starts stretching and flowing, it will be too long for the chamber it's in after firing, and will require more upward force than normal to unlock the bolt. In severe cases, you might have to smack the bolt...or even hit it with a mallet! Proper cautious load workup will prevent that from happening to you!

Lastly, no! Don't just try 45gr! Follow proper, cautious load workup. I recommend "ladder testing". Search that term and study the concept. My advice is to load two identical ladders and run them side by side at a minimum of 200 yards with a 308, and 300 yards is better. For a 308, load in 1/2 grain increments, ending at ~ 46-47gr. Fire them one at a time feeling for bolt lift force and carefully checking each fired round for the ejector mark. When you get a sticky bolt OR an ejector mark, STOP!!!!!, and quarantine the remaining cartridges for disassembly ASAP. Now you know your SAFE pressure limit. Post pics of your ladders here and we'll help you analyze them so you can load some OCW tests. Thats it!

PS: I know the first thing we learn about pressure is flat primers, but quite honestly, it is the most unreliable method out there - besides not checking at all. Some primers are softer, some are harder, and headspace has a dramatic effect on flatness too. If you have a micrometer, you can also measure "casehead expansion", by measuring before/after firing diameter of your case, just forward of the extractor groove. If they are growing more than .0015", "danger will robinson"!

Hope this helps.

 
#44
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

Turbo54,
Thank you for your detailed response. I was not planning to do any additional load developments, but after reading your response, I will go ahead with the latter testing at 300 yards.
Quick questions:
With how many grains of Varget should I start my loads? I was thinking to start at 42 gr.
When you say “to load two identical ladders”, does it mean that for each powder increment, I need to load 2 rounds? Isn’t better that I load 3 rounds of each? If so, I’ll end up with 27 rounds (42 to 46 gr with 1/2 gr increments will give 9 different powder charges which I multiply by 3 to get the total rounds I need to load).

Thanks,
 
#45
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

Kevin, 42 or 42.5gr would be a fine place to start the ladders. I think 2 rounds at each charge weight is sufficient, but 3 certainly can't hurt....but remember, the objective of a ladder test is to see what "zone" of charge weights DO NOT AFFECT the vertical dispersion of your point of impact. You're looking for 2 or 3 consecutive shots (each charged differently) that impact the same or close to the same point (heightwise) on the target. Running two ladders will reinforce your results. That way, if target 1 shows shots 3&4 and 9&10 to look close, but target 2 shows 3&4 have a bunch if dispersion - but 8,9&10 are close, you can feel confident you've got a legit node somewhere in the 8-10 chargeweight. Next you'll load/fire groups at these charges to find the center of the node, and youve bracketed the node. With that data, you now know that ANY chargeweight inside the bracket eill have the same point of impact. This makes your final resulting load very tolerant to variations/errors in chargeweight and also environmental conditions. Ideally, you would aim to charge in the center of the node, to give you the most +/- leeway in charge.

Lastly, I might point out that it is a good idea to seat bullets ON/INTO the lands throughout this process, giving you the worst case pressure scenario. If you're throat is long and you need your ammo to fit the magazine, and will always be seating at maglength, forget about the lands. Only once you've laddered, OCW'd and found that magic charge weight do you move on to fine tuning seating depth by loading groups @ .010" off, .020" off and. 030" off. Those results should indicate where things were improving or deteriorating - or that they were just getting better. In the first xase, load more groups in between to fine tune. In the second case, load some deeper yet to fine the maguc spot.

In many cases, you'll find a great load LONG before you've had to get this deep into it.

Lastly - if you aren't seeing something pretty darn promising after your FIRST OCW groups, switch powder or primer cause you can't polish a turd. However, from the looks of your development so far (and your using proven components ), I'm sure you'll find something great pretty quick.
 
#46
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

Turbo54
I just prepared two series of latter with Varget and SMK 175g

1. Lapua brass 42.5g to 46g- 0.5g increment and 2 rounds for each powder charge (16 rounds). The powder is pretty compact in Lapua.
2. Same thing but with Winchester brass that have higher capacity.



This is the protocol I want to follow: Shooting distance 300Y
Clean the gun
Shoot around 20 fooling shots
Start the latter test by shooting the first round of each powder charge. And only then start shooting the second round. For example:
1st shot: 42.5g (first round of this powder charge)
2d shot : 43g
.
.
.
8th shot: 46g (assuming there has not been any pressure sings)
9th shot: 42.5g (second round of that powder charge)

This will help minimize cold/clean barrel effect.

Let me know your thoughts on this. Hopefully I can go shooting in a couple of weeks.
 
#47
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

be careful about believe everything you hear on a rifle being .5 moa this or that. besides does it really matter how well it shoots at 100 yards, I have had a load that shoots .75 at 200 yards turn into over 5" of vertical spread at 500 yards. that would get grouping in the 3's at 100 yards and most guys would say it shoots .5 moa all day long.

I have owned one savage, a 6.5-284 bvss, I never really found out how it would shoot, but I can say one thing the factory bedding was horrible. yeah it was pillar bedded and all but I never liked that metal tab that holds the mag box in place and sandwiches itself between the action and the pillar. the throat was also so long it was insane, which isn't the best for long VLD bullets. not bashing savage but if their other rifles come with this type of bedding setup I would think extreme accuracy would be tuff to come by.

for a 308 out of the box give me a tikka varmint, that might just be able to make the .5 moa cut with the right shooter.
 
#48
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

I did the ladder testing:
Distance: 300 yards
Lapua brass with 175 SMK
Powder charge (Varget): From 42.5Gr to 46Gr.
The test: It was very cold and windy.
I started with Target 1 (42.5 to 44gr)
1st and 5th shots was with 42.5 gr
Then I dialed down 2moa and shot the 2d target (44.5 to 46gr)

Thank you for convincing me to do this. It was definitely useful. I think based on this test, I will need to stick with 43Gr of Varget that produced 0.58 inch of vertical variation at 300 yards (1st pic, 2d target).

Below the two targets and the pics of the brasses (from left to right, 42.5 to 46 Gr)





 
#49
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

cummins cowboy: I have two of the savage b308's one a 10fp and a 10FCP 5r. Both of these guns have short throats. Max bullet length is 2.79 to 2.80, any longer and the bullet contacts bthe rifling. The best I've shot is a .4. But I cannot do this all day long but it will shoot sub 1moa all day.
 
#50
Re: Savage 10FP: Is this a 0.5 MOA rifle (with Pics)?

This is interesting. My accuracy nodes seems to be the same (41 and 43 gr of Varget with lapua brass and 175 SMK).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Snakum</div><div class="ubbcode-body">About loading for the FP/FCP ...

I found my max load with IMR 4895 by accident. At about 44+ grains of 4895 I started tasting powder and the bolt gets heavy when jacking the case out. The last Georgia Arms match ammo I bought actually stuck the bolt hard and required a rubber mallet to open the bolt (accurate as holy hell though).

With 168gr Amaxes and SMKs there seems to be two accuracy nodes with my rifle. One around the 41gr mark and another just above 43gr. Yours is likely similar. No reason to max out a load with any powder for the FCP. </div></div>
 
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