Savage now and then AKA why people hate Savage
- Thread starter MoBoost
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I have used both platforms for a long time. The Remington I have been shooting for more than 30 years both work and hobby.
Today an out of the box accustock beats any entry deal on the market.
The Remington can be made a superb machine but initially prepare more out of pocket and in any case including a good glass.
If one wants an extreme machine then do not even bother with a factory setup or simply reuse the action and the rest barrel, stock everything goes into the recycling bin.
Folks need to overcome the ugliness factor and really concentrate on what a rifle can do.
Lots of attention goes into the owning and not so much on the doing. It is not important how you get there but if you get there at all. Bullet holes have no brands.
Rifle equipment alone and what brand is the least of one's worries if one really wants to get good and enjoy extreme accuracy.
Often overlooked professional training, good quality supporting equipment and a truck load of good quality ammunition and lots of trigger time is what is really needed, savage, remington, sako or whatever brand.
With all those things considered, when one shoots the equivalent value of a brand new sports muscle car out of that system then they might be getting somewhere.
For the rest 99% of the masses printing some 100-200 yds cherry picked groups during the weekend will give the reward they need to carry on with the sport.
Today an out of the box accustock beats any entry deal on the market.
The Remington can be made a superb machine but initially prepare more out of pocket and in any case including a good glass.
If one wants an extreme machine then do not even bother with a factory setup or simply reuse the action and the rest barrel, stock everything goes into the recycling bin.
Folks need to overcome the ugliness factor and really concentrate on what a rifle can do.
Lots of attention goes into the owning and not so much on the doing. It is not important how you get there but if you get there at all. Bullet holes have no brands.
Rifle equipment alone and what brand is the least of one's worries if one really wants to get good and enjoy extreme accuracy.
Often overlooked professional training, good quality supporting equipment and a truck load of good quality ammunition and lots of trigger time is what is really needed, savage, remington, sako or whatever brand.
With all those things considered, when one shoots the equivalent value of a brand new sports muscle car out of that system then they might be getting somewhere.
For the rest 99% of the masses printing some 100-200 yds cherry picked groups during the weekend will give the reward they need to carry on with the sport.
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^ +1
really when you think about it, doesn't savage have that more mall rat "tactical" look folks are trying to acheive?
faceted and flat surfaces like a stealth or F22, barrel nut matches the pic rail grooves, nothing hanging off the back of the bolt other than the handle, safety that is high speed low drag and tough to get caught on stuff or having to completey jack up your grip to disengage. ugly or ahead of it's time?
rem 700, smooth blended surfaces, like a fat chic
honestly just trolling a little, both are fine pieces of machinery, but notice rem implemented alot of savage features in the 783, but savage hasn't changed to be more like a 700.
hmmm.
now a win. model 70, that's an ugly action.
really when you think about it, doesn't savage have that more mall rat "tactical" look folks are trying to acheive?
faceted and flat surfaces like a stealth or F22, barrel nut matches the pic rail grooves, nothing hanging off the back of the bolt other than the handle, safety that is high speed low drag and tough to get caught on stuff or having to completey jack up your grip to disengage. ugly or ahead of it's time?
rem 700, smooth blended surfaces, like a fat chic
honestly just trolling a little, both are fine pieces of machinery, but notice rem implemented alot of savage features in the 783, but savage hasn't changed to be more like a 700.
hmmm.
now a win. model 70, that's an ugly action.
This is as true as it gets.
Rem and savage really can't offer the quality Sako can. Besides i wonder who have ever heard about QC issues with Tikkas?
Thanks for the comparison, that's really nice to see how these rifles have developed over time. I would love to see a similar comparison with Remington rifles, or an old Model 70 vs. a current FN SPR.
Got a savage 10 FCP with HS precision stock. Shoots awesome, half moa easy at 100 yards, with a good shooter I reckon you could keep that accuracy at 200 yards. I'm just not a good enough shot to maintain that accuracy. There's one thing I have realised in the short time I have been shooting, the difference between a $6000 rifle and a $1500 rifle is that the $6000 is usually guaranteed to shoot half moa, the $1500 one is usually not. At the end of the day it's all wank factor. Factory rifles have a lower standard but that doesn't mean you won't get lucky and get a half moa shooter, actually you have a pretty good chance of getting one, so why pay for the $6000 rifle?
As much as I would love to get my hands on an AI or a TRG simply because of the quality put into them, and yes I have shot an AI before, and yes you can operate the bolt with your little finger, well balanced etc. I can see why there so expensive, but after all that, guess what, a factory rifle will shoot just as good. Most of the time it all comes down to the shooter + shooter's knowledge behind the rifle.
I'm not dissing quality rifles or having a go at anyone and no I don't work for savage lol, just my opinion is all. Woot, go the Savages! Hopefully they keep their quality streak up, its basically a game of cat and mouse and Savage is the cat at the moment.
As much as I would love to get my hands on an AI or a TRG simply because of the quality put into them, and yes I have shot an AI before, and yes you can operate the bolt with your little finger, well balanced etc. I can see why there so expensive, but after all that, guess what, a factory rifle will shoot just as good. Most of the time it all comes down to the shooter + shooter's knowledge behind the rifle.
I'm not dissing quality rifles or having a go at anyone and no I don't work for savage lol, just my opinion is all. Woot, go the Savages! Hopefully they keep their quality streak up, its basically a game of cat and mouse and Savage is the cat at the moment.
So we all agree Remington sucks..... J/K! I will say this, as a owner of both and some other brands. The Savages absolutely shoot better out of the box. The Savage is absolutely "Uglier" than the pretty Remmys. I think if the Rem triggers were a bit better they would do almost as good as the Savages out of the box.
Don't tell anyone, but you can also do the above with a Japanese Howa Axiom heavy barrel Varminter resting in a Blackhawk stock. It's good for 1/2 to 1/4 MOA with decent ammo out of the box. After about 100 rounds the bolt feels like it runs on oiled glass.
From someone that has obviously never owned one. Seems to be a lot of snobbery in here. If it's not custom made and costs less than $4000.00 it's not worth having and can't shoot accurately? Time for the children to mature a little and leave the Yuppie stuff behind.
Most of the expensive stuff in here will only shoot as good as the person behind it. There's some pretty darn good shooters out there that don't use all the trick toys. A name does not make them superior, the shooter does that.
Most of the expensive stuff in here will only shoot as good as the person behind it. There's some pretty darn good shooters out there that don't use all the trick toys. A name does not make them superior, the shooter does that.
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I'll keep that in mind, still deciding on a hunting build I'm planning. I don't usually tell anyone about factory rifles, I let them discover that for themselves or not. Don't wont the big names to lose business. In this case I couldn't help myself, sorry
The Howa is a better rifle than a Savage, or a Remington - and cheaper, too.
That said, this is particularly on-point:
call_me_E said:
This applies to most any of the heavy barrel, target-oriented rifles!
I'm with you on this one, I couldn't care less how the rifle looks or feel's, if it can pop half moa, it can pop half moa. End of story.
Yeah the jewellery stuff is showing up more because I think there's a bit more feminine side in guys these day's J/K. Realistically I think it's because there's more woman shooters and there just catering to their "oohhh, shiny" weakness. I can tell you now, a woman is rarely going to buy a shooting magazine lol, my woman shoots crazy good, and she couldn't care less about guns lol, go figure. She could be a sniper any day of the week, shh, don't tell her I said that lol.
Yep, sure are.
One piece bolt, flat bottom receiver, integral recoil lug, shoot lights out.
The Weatherby Vanguard is just a rebadged Howa, by the way...
I would not say that some people hate Savages. Everyone has there favorite action for many reasons.
I build lots of custom rifles on many different actions and find them to be good if properly blue printed and assembled.
All factory actions have problems. I have never blue printed any action that did not have something wrong with it.
There are good factory rifles and there are bad ones. It is just the luck of the draw if you get one that shoots, the same as a bad one.
I have blue printed some that shot well and still had many things that were not square and concentric and actually the problems seem to cancel the effect out because they were oppsite each other.
I personaly don't like the barrel nut because it is two more threads to contend with not because it may look bad to some.
There is no question that Remington has more aftermarket parts available than any other rifle making them very popular for customizing.
Accuracy lies in the trueness of everything from the bolt, action, chamber, barrel, ammo and the shooter skills. they all have to be good to shoot well. the type of action has little are nothing to do with accuracy.
J E CUSTOM
I build lots of custom rifles on many different actions and find them to be good if properly blue printed and assembled.
All factory actions have problems. I have never blue printed any action that did not have something wrong with it.
There are good factory rifles and there are bad ones. It is just the luck of the draw if you get one that shoots, the same as a bad one.
I have blue printed some that shot well and still had many things that were not square and concentric and actually the problems seem to cancel the effect out because they were oppsite each other.
I personaly don't like the barrel nut because it is two more threads to contend with not because it may look bad to some.
There is no question that Remington has more aftermarket parts available than any other rifle making them very popular for customizing.
Accuracy lies in the trueness of everything from the bolt, action, chamber, barrel, ammo and the shooter skills. they all have to be good to shoot well. the type of action has little are nothing to do with accuracy.
J E CUSTOM
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Savage, the number 1 gun when it comes to killing your mom before shooting up a school full of children.
Not a Savage hater, but not a fan either.
But, back in the mid-80s, I bought a new Savage .308. Beech stock, long action and 8# trigger. Shot like house afire and my reloading skills were pretty marginal at the time.
But, back in the mid-80s, I bought a new Savage .308. Beech stock, long action and 8# trigger. Shot like house afire and my reloading skills were pretty marginal at the time.
I feel much the same way. There is something just wrong about a country that doesnt have any problem building firearms for sale and profit in other countries, but denies their own people the right.
Not meaning to introduce politics, but we're only about one mid term election away from being in the same boat. Let's just call it a head's up that needs some attention.
The nut has threads, but what's the second extra thread?
What's your take on barrel stress during traditional torquing VS stress free with the nut?
Ar-15 is a rifle also; you can't out-customize them things
Savage is obviously easier to customize - much closer to ARs than anything else; but the fact that they keep dicking with dimensions of the receiver hurts the aftermarket R&D.
With all that said - the only thing that Savage lacks in aftermarket parts availability is the actions - but by all accounts it seems unnecessary.
Mostly agree. However there are some (vintage) actions that will just not cooperate - SMLE comes to mind: rear locking lugs with open top receiver - no matter what you do it will just keep flexing.
I was just recently told that years ago Remington "borrowed" many of it's main features from Savage for their 700 at the time. So if true, they are actually like cousins!
LOVE MY SAVAGE!! Had one of the old 10FP about 15-16 years ago in 308. It shot 1/2" all day long. The trigger was crappy, but that was along time ago. I put over 6000 rounds through it and would still hold 1/2" with hand loads. Now have one of the target accutrigger LRPV's in 223... A bad group is 1/4", good group is in the "1's" and on occasion in the "0's". It's stock from the factory. How can anyone complain about that!!! Show me another $950.00 gun that performs like that.
The nut has threads, but what's the second extra thread?
What's your take on barrel stress during traditional torquing VS stress free with the nut?
The nut and the barrel threads have to make up, Increasing the chance to misalign the action and barrel, also the face of the barrel nut is most often not perfectly square. As far as the stress free connection, there is no such thing. Threads are always going to apply stress when torqued. While customizing a Savage I always replace the barrel nut and the factory recoil lug because they are a source of many problems and install a precision ground lug. this also allows me to use a larger shank (Normally 1.250) adding strength around the chamber.
This method assures me that the threads make up square to the receiver and concentric to the bore. also I can cut better fitting threads for the actions and the barrel. The Savage design does not require a gunsmith to head space and assemble making them very popular. It does how ever encourage some to think anyone can assemble them correctly. Savage recognizes this and on some models have installed a smooth barrel nut to discourage this practice .
Ar-15 is a rifle also; you can't out-customize them things
Savage is obviously easier to customize - much closer to ARs than anything else; but the fact that they keep dicking with dimensions of the receiver hurts the aftermarket R&D.
There is no question that the AR platform has become very popular and have many after market parts But I was referring to
bolt guns.
With all that said - the only thing that Savage lacks in aftermarket parts availability is the actions - but by all accounts it seems unnecessary.
Mostly agree. However there are some (vintage) actions that will just not cooperate - SMLE comes to mind: rear locking lugs with open top receiver - no matter what you do it will just keep flexing.
I personally don't like the rear locking lugs on anything, but there have been some fine shooting rifles with this type of action.
With the advent of high pressure cartridges (55,000 to 65,000 Psi) I don't think they will ever do a comeback.
PS; I did not separate your questions and posted my opinions between your questions (Sorry)
Just the way I do it.
J E CUSTOM
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this is my savage 110ba in 300wm. I have done a few modifications to it over the 3 years I have owned it but in the end its a great rifle. 1/2 moa if I do my part with good hand loads. have never had a problem pinging steel out to a grand or more with it either.
imo its not that ugly.
I think my Savage is sexy.
Started life out as a 300wm.Then became a 308 and is now a 338 edge.
I can switch calibers in a 1/2 hour with a barrel vise, barrel nut wrench, Screwdriver(the tool) and go gauges, Almost Anywhere.
If Savage made a .50 Bmg action, all my rifles would be Savages.
Started life out as a 300wm.Then became a 308 and is now a 338 edge.
I can switch calibers in a 1/2 hour with a barrel vise, barrel nut wrench, Screwdriver(the tool) and go gauges, Almost Anywhere.
If Savage made a .50 Bmg action, all my rifles would be Savages.
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I have tried to like Savage, and to say they wont shoot is ridiculous. That being said, every single one I have ever picked up, or laid down behind, jest feels cheap. Its personal bias, and nothing more, but it is what it is.
I've had 3 savage rimfires, 1 centerfire, and worked on a few rimfire and centerfire savages that where not mine. All of them shot acceptable to really good for out of the box performance. All left much to be desired when it comes to fit and finish. All shot excellent after modifications both with the stock pipe and shilen pipes. Really what it all comes down to is budget and personal preference. IMO there is nothing wrong with a savage. Would I ever build a savage for my own personal use? My answer is no cause I'm willing to pay more for better fit and finish.
You guys who shoot Remington because you just can't bring yourselves to shoot something as ugly as a Savage crack me up. Its like closing time at a bar and you're taking home the second ugliest skank left. Neither Savage nor Remington have any great looking guns in their current catalog when compared to Blaser, Mauser, Steyr and a bunch of others.
As for "Savage Now and Then".
I've got a few Savages (a couple of Remingtons too), most are from mid 90's through early 2000's. I had very good luck with them, I actually liked the factory trigger before the accutrigger, though there is nothing wrong with the accutrigger. The old factory trigger could be polished up to break crisp at 3-4 pounds, to me that's perfect for a single stage hunting trigger. And I've never had accuracy or reliability issues. The stocks suck but there are plenty of aftermarkets out there.
Then a few years ago I bought a project gun. My daughter would be ready for her first big girl gun, so I bought a beater .243 to fix up and re-barrel. This was one of the old 110E series from the 80's. And it was a POS, I wonder if a lot of the Savage hate comes from guys who had experiences with rifles from this time period.
The stock was laminate, and was cracked. The issue was the rear screw being tightened too much on a broken plastic trigger guard putting stress on the stock. We re-barreled to 7mm-08, glassed and screwed the stock back together, reinforced the front screw by countersinking a steel washer into the hole and replaced the plastic trigger guard with a steel one. Then shortened the stock a couple of inches, and installed a thick hi-vis recoil pad. DUra Coated the stock and we were off to the races, almost.
Bullets wouldn't feed from the magazine. Close inspection showed the magazine was bent slightly, and I couldn't seem to get it straightened out, no matter what I did it just wouldn't feed. So a new mag, spring and follower were installed. Then the feed ramp was polished, it was extremely rough with a spiral grove going around it. Now it works great, I've only shot a handful of reloads through it, but they all are MOA. It will be a fine rifle for my kid to take out west hunting in a couple of years.
If that Savage had been my first Savage I'd have never bought another. Hats off to Savage for pulling themselves up by their bootstraps and becoming an innovative, competitive rifle company.
As for "Savage Now and Then".
I've got a few Savages (a couple of Remingtons too), most are from mid 90's through early 2000's. I had very good luck with them, I actually liked the factory trigger before the accutrigger, though there is nothing wrong with the accutrigger. The old factory trigger could be polished up to break crisp at 3-4 pounds, to me that's perfect for a single stage hunting trigger. And I've never had accuracy or reliability issues. The stocks suck but there are plenty of aftermarkets out there.
Then a few years ago I bought a project gun. My daughter would be ready for her first big girl gun, so I bought a beater .243 to fix up and re-barrel. This was one of the old 110E series from the 80's. And it was a POS, I wonder if a lot of the Savage hate comes from guys who had experiences with rifles from this time period.
The stock was laminate, and was cracked. The issue was the rear screw being tightened too much on a broken plastic trigger guard putting stress on the stock. We re-barreled to 7mm-08, glassed and screwed the stock back together, reinforced the front screw by countersinking a steel washer into the hole and replaced the plastic trigger guard with a steel one. Then shortened the stock a couple of inches, and installed a thick hi-vis recoil pad. DUra Coated the stock and we were off to the races, almost.
Bullets wouldn't feed from the magazine. Close inspection showed the magazine was bent slightly, and I couldn't seem to get it straightened out, no matter what I did it just wouldn't feed. So a new mag, spring and follower were installed. Then the feed ramp was polished, it was extremely rough with a spiral grove going around it. Now it works great, I've only shot a handful of reloads through it, but they all are MOA. It will be a fine rifle for my kid to take out west hunting in a couple of years.
If that Savage had been my first Savage I'd have never bought another. Hats off to Savage for pulling themselves up by their bootstraps and becoming an innovative, competitive rifle company.
Savage makes solid rifles, and the majority of them shoot better than the people shooting them. Some lemons leave the factory.
Remington makes Solid rifles, and the majority of them will shoot better than the people shooting them. Some lemons leave the factory (quite a few actually).
Winchester makes solid rifles, and the majority of them will shoot better than the people shooting them. Some lemons leave the factory.
Apply the above to pretty much every rifle mass manufactured (a few exceptions are there).
A custom build is guaranteed not to be a lemon. Whether or not that is worth an additional $2,000-$6,000 is up to you.
Pick a gun you want based off of your preferences and fuck what everybody else thinks...seriously. Of course the guy who dropped $4,000 grand on a rifle is going to say his rifle is the shit, and it probably is to him. The guy who dropped $600 plus an additional $1,000-$2,000 grand building their rifle is also going to say it's the shit, and it probably is to him. The guy who rocks a bone stock (insert rifle company here) will say his rifle is the shit, and it probably is to him.
Buy the rifle you want and shoot it. If it needs soome work done, then get the work done. If it doesn't then give yourself a high five.
Also the line of thinking that if all you can afford is a savage than you are in the wrong sport is bullshit. Pure garbage. The funny part is the member who made that statement didn't even know you could zero out your turrets on your scope until early this year.
Buy your (insert factory rifle here) and with your savings buy a shitload of ammo and go find out what you would change about the rifle (if anything) and get proficient. Or, max out your credit cards, dump the college fund, and take your new (insert retardedly expensive rifle here) to the range to fire your 1 box of ammo before you stick it in the safe and come post pictures of it.
Many opinions on rifles and gear, but in the end you are the one using the shit. Buy what you want!! Learn with it and figure out what you really want. Who knows? You may be satisified with the factory fodder, or you may decide to go with a custom build, AI, TRG, etc. The important part at that point is that you will be making an informed decision based off of your experience.
Remington makes Solid rifles, and the majority of them will shoot better than the people shooting them. Some lemons leave the factory (quite a few actually).
Winchester makes solid rifles, and the majority of them will shoot better than the people shooting them. Some lemons leave the factory.
Apply the above to pretty much every rifle mass manufactured (a few exceptions are there).
A custom build is guaranteed not to be a lemon. Whether or not that is worth an additional $2,000-$6,000 is up to you.
Pick a gun you want based off of your preferences and fuck what everybody else thinks...seriously. Of course the guy who dropped $4,000 grand on a rifle is going to say his rifle is the shit, and it probably is to him. The guy who dropped $600 plus an additional $1,000-$2,000 grand building their rifle is also going to say it's the shit, and it probably is to him. The guy who rocks a bone stock (insert rifle company here) will say his rifle is the shit, and it probably is to him.
Buy the rifle you want and shoot it. If it needs soome work done, then get the work done. If it doesn't then give yourself a high five.
Also the line of thinking that if all you can afford is a savage than you are in the wrong sport is bullshit. Pure garbage. The funny part is the member who made that statement didn't even know you could zero out your turrets on your scope until early this year.
Buy your (insert factory rifle here) and with your savings buy a shitload of ammo and go find out what you would change about the rifle (if anything) and get proficient. Or, max out your credit cards, dump the college fund, and take your new (insert retardedly expensive rifle here) to the range to fire your 1 box of ammo before you stick it in the safe and come post pictures of it.
Many opinions on rifles and gear, but in the end you are the one using the shit. Buy what you want!! Learn with it and figure out what you really want. Who knows? You may be satisified with the factory fodder, or you may decide to go with a custom build, AI, TRG, etc. The important part at that point is that you will be making an informed decision based off of your experience.
Hey man, there is nothing you can do when you have the rifle in your hands and you just don't like it. My Savage shot great, I just didn't like it. For the life of me. My new 700 seems to shoot just as well, if not better, and I love it.
I guess it's like a preference to women. There are hot blondes out there. But damn, nothing like an exotic Latina woman. That's just what I like.
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I guess everyone that runs a custom action has no "fit and finish" skills either lmfao!
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