Gunsmithing SBR Bolt Action question regarding Barrel fitting

[sid]

So im going to build a SBR Boltaction, can i send the barrel to get chambered and Cut to 11" while im waiting for my Form to come back, and the gunsmith sends me the action and barrel not installed so i install it myself when my form gets approved ?

can any gunsmith do this work? and am i still the maker?

of should i just get the barrel fitted to my action while its 16" or longer and when my form is approved i remove the barrel and send only the barrel for cutting and threading?

 

[ken226]

Having a sub 16" barrel on a bolt action receiver isn't any different than having a ar15 SBR upper receiver.

It isn't an sbr unless you attach a buttstock.

Theres the whole "constructive intent" thing, where the ATF could, theoretically, charge you with a crime if you have the SBR barrelled receiver, and a stock that fits the sbr receiver, but no tax stamp, and no standard length barrelled receiver that could be the legitimate mate to the stock.

But thats getting pretty far into the weeds.

 

[sid]

ohh i guess i looked at it the wrong way, i figured the reciever is the lower and the barrel is the upper.... but yes without a stock it could even become a pistol..
thanks!

 

[Dolomite_Supafly]

Here is my bolt action “pistol”. 3.5” barrel in 300 Blackout with my F1 silencer. It has a Shockwave brace.

 

[ken226]

ohh i guess i looked at it the wrong way, i figured the reciever is the lower and the barrel is the upper.... but yes without a stock it could even become a pistol..
thanks!

Exactly.

Technically, the barrelled action would meet the same legal classification as an AR pistol. Its not an sbr untill you attach it to a buttstock.

But, if you own a sub 16" barrelled action, and own an unassembled stock that fits the sub 16" action, then you have a sbr. Even if they aren't attached to each other at the moment.

 

[sid]

Exactly.

Technically, the barrelled action would meet the same legal classification as an AR pistol. Its not an sbr untill you attach it to a buttstock.

But, if you own a sub 16" barrelled action, and own an unassembled stock that fits the sub 16" action, then you have a sbr. Even if they aren't attached to each other at the moment.

Exactly.

Technically, the barrelled action would meet the same legal classification as an AR pistol. Its not an sbr untill you attach it to a buttstock.

But, if you own a sub 16" barrelled action, and own an unassembled stock that fits the sub 16" action, then you have a sbr. Even if they aren't attached to each other at the moment.

i guess then i should wait until the form is approved to be save....

 

[sid]

Here is my bolt action “pistol”. 3.5” barrel in 300 Blackout with my F1 silencer. It has a Shockwave brace.
View attachment 7211148

that looks fun!
my plan is to get a 11 or 12" barrel in 6XC for hunting, all my rifles have 16" barrels but they still get cumbersome when sitting in the treeblind with a suppressor.

 

[ken226]

You might not have to wait as long as you used to. My last form 1 got approved 1 month after i mailed it in.

It was a paper submission, not electronic, for a .40 suppressor. If i remember correctly, it was submitted to the Portland NFA office.

 

[Dolomite_Supafly]

My last F1 took 22 days.

 

[sid]

my last one about 6 months ago took me 2 months for efile... it always takes longer for me because of my greencard

 

[Codiekfx400]

Exactly.

Technically, the barrelled action would meet the same legal classification as an AR pistol. Its not an sbr untill you attach it to a buttstock.

But, if you own a sub 16" barrelled action, and own an unassembled stock that fits the sub 16" action, then you have a sbr. Even if they aren't attached to each other at the moment.

So if I have my ar pistol in possession unattached to lower and my ar carbine unattached to lower that would be a crime?

 

[ken226]

So if I have my ar pistol in possession unattached to lower and my ar carbine unattached to lower that would be a crime?

Your AR pistol upper half and AR carbine upper half are not assemblable into a firearm. So, no, that would not constitute possession of an unregistered SBR.

In a similar scenario, if you had your AR pistol upper half (unattached) and your ar carbine lower half (unattached), then despite thier unattached status, you would still be in possession of an unregistered sbr.

In another similar scenario, if you are in possession of a pistol upper half (unattached), and also have your complete AR carbine (upper attached to lower), then you are fine (in compliance) with ATFs interpretation of the intent of the statute. You can legally have the unattached pistol upper, and there is no obvious intent to attach it to the carbine lower, as the carbine lower is already attached to an upper.

 

[Easy_E]

Here is my bolt action “pistol”. 3.5” barrel in 300 Blackout with my F1 silencer. It has a Shockwave brace.
View attachment 7211148

What magazine are you using for the blackout ?

 

[Dolomite_Supafly]

Accurate makes a 223 magazine. You have to do a little clearance work but worked perfectly after.

 

[Easy_E]

Accurate makes a 223 magazine. You have to do a little clearance work but worked perfectly after.

I have the Accurate five round your looks like maybe ten round ?

 

[Sniperstud]

OP: What action are you going to use?

 

[sid]

OP: What action are you going to use?

A Remington 700 lefty in stainless that I impulse bought
I ordered a xcaliber barrel also in stainless with a 6mm 1/7 twist, senduro contour.
Don't have a stock yet , I'm thinking a wooden stock.

The suppressor ( omega300 direct thread and flat endcap) is planned to be around 2 inch into the stock where I will open the barrel contour.
Then I I'm planning a shorty scope like Leupold mk5 or so..

 

[Dolomite_Supafly]

I have the Accurate five round your looks like maybe ten round ?

They are.

 

[Hellbender]

I'd wait for the stamp.....If this bolt gun WAS a rifle already.

If an AR was EVER assembled into a rifle FIRST, you CAN'T convert it to an SBR or pistol without a stamp....legally.

If the AR was made into a pistol FIRST and was never a rifle first, you are GTG.

You can't just go buy a Rem 700 rifle, throw the stock away, cut off the bbl (to under 16") and call it a pistol, you have to SBR stamp it FIRST!

If you buy a Rem 700 PISTOL or a barreled action (that has NEVER been a rifle), you can build it into a pistol without a stamp.

 

[Dolomite_Supafly]

If an AR was EVER assembled into a rifle, you CAN'T convert it to an SBR or pistol without a stamp....legally.

Not exactly true. If it were assembled as a rifle first that is true but if it were a pistol first you can assemble it as a rifle later then go back to a pistol.

 

[LoanHarvey]

Not exactly true. If it were assembled as a rifle first that is true but if it were a pistol first you can assemble it as a rifle later then go back to a pistol.

Question please - just for clarification, if I have a R700 action that was never assembled as a rifle, then I fit an 11" barrel w/ suppressor and install it in a Manners compact stock, I am good to go? (I am thinking 300 BLK)

 

[spife7980]

If it were just a bare action, yes. It’s only when it is bought as a rifle that it is a “rifle”, just a bare action is sold to you as “other” on the form4473 so it’s not classified as anything yet.

 

[Hellbender]

Not exactly true. If it were assembled as a rifle first that is true but if it were a pistol first you can assemble it as a rifle later then go back to a pistol.

Yes, you are correct, I will amend my post above, I was talking in the context that the OP seemed to be explaining.

 

[Dolomite_Supafly]

If it were just a bare action, yes. It’s only when it is bought as a rifle that it is a “rifle”, just a bare action is sold to you as “other” on the form4473 so it’s not classified as anything yet.

If it is an action that was not assembled as a rifle first it can be built as a pistol. If it is a used action, even transferred bare, it was probably built as a rifle first and cannot be built into a pistol.

Regardless of how it was first built if it has a shoulder stock, not a brace, and has a barrel of less than 16” it must be a registered SBR. Even if it is a pistol, once you add a stock it becomes a rifle.

The mantra used to be “once a rifle always a rifle” but with the popularity of ARs that has been changed legally to “a rifle first always a rifle”.

 

[wadebrown]

Given your freedom could be at risk I would call your local ATF office and ask them whether what you want to do is legal, ask for the determination in writing. In a court of law I would rather have a piece or paper from the ATF saying what I was doing was legal, instead of a bunch of forum replies saying yes that is OK.

No disrespect to anyone replying trying to help out intended, I just think when the "10 and 10" rule applies it makes sense to go to the source.

10 and 10 rule - 10 years and $10,000

wade

 

[Dolomite_Supafly]

A local ATF office will not issue a written opinion on NFA stuff. They will tell you to write the NFA branch. Also, a verbal OK by a local office means nothing. You can write the ATF for an opinion letter but that will take some time and you will get the exact same things that have already been said just in fancier words.

Everything I, and others, have said is in the NFA Handbook or on the ATF website. The NFA isn’t some scary dark place manned by agents who are looking to arrest everyone. The vast majority of agents are like the rest of us, they aren’t looking for drama or extra work to do.

The ATF cannot come “inspect” anything an individual has without a warrant, whether you have an NFA item or not. The ATF cannot just show up at your door because you have an NFA item. They have no more authority than any other law enforcement agency.

To the OP, have a 16” barrel installed and then have it chopped after the approval comes back.

 

[Dolomite_Supafly]

Question please - just for clarification, if I have a R700 action that was never assembled as a rifle, then I fit an 11" barrel w/ suppressor and install it in a Manners compact stock, I am good to go? (I am thinking 300 BLK)

No, are NOT good to go.

No matter whether it has been assembled as a pistol or a rifle first it cannot have a barrel length of less than 16" with a shoulder stock unless it is first registered as a Short Barreled Rifle.

If you have a barrel of less than 16" but an overall length greater than 26" and it does not have a shoulder stock (but it can have a pistol brace) it is considered a "firearm". The definition of a "firearm" is sort of a catch all for guns that do not meet the definition of a "pistol", "rifle" or "shotgun".

My picture above is a "pistol" because it is less than 26" in overall length. If I installed a barrel, or buffer tube and pistol brace, that resulted in an overall length greater than 26" it would convert the "pistol" into a "firearm". A "firearm" has no minimum barrel length, only a minimum overall length.

 

[Dolomite_Supafly]

And one more thing, I am referring to national laws. State and local laws could supersede the national rules. I know there are some states that do not allow SBRs or silencers. Some measure the overall length of the gun completely collapsed instead of extended.

 

[LoanHarvey]

No, are NOT good to go.

No matter whether it has been assembled as a pistol or a rifle first it cannot have a barrel length of less than 16" with a shoulder stock unless it is first registered as a Short Barreled Rifle.

If you have a barrel of less than 16" but an overall length greater than 26" and it does not have a shoulder stock (but it can have a pistol brace) it is considered a "firearm". The definition of a "firearm" is sort of a catch all for guns that do not meet the definition of a "pistol", "rifle" or "shotgun".

My picture above is a "pistol" because it is less than 26" in overall length. If I installed a barrel, or buffer tube and pistol brace, that resulted in an overall length greater than 26" it would convert the "pistol" into a "firearm". A "firearm" has no minimum barrel length, only a minimum overall length.

Thank you Sir!! May I ask what chassis you have above? Also, where might a guy look to have a 3.5" barrel chambered in 300 BLK.

 

[Dolomite_Supafly]

Thank you Sir!! May I ask what chassis you have above? Also, where might a guy look to have a 3.5" barrel chambered in 300 BLK.

I made that barrel myself using an 8 twist Green Mountain barrel blank. The chassis was a XLR Carbon chassis with the hand guard removed. The railed section on the barrel was meant for a magazine tube on the shotgun. I cut the diameter of the barrel to use it.

Even with a 3.5" barrel I was able to shoot 265g bullets to supersonic velocities. It also stabilized those bullets at subsonic velocities. It was louder than longer barrels though. The action is an American Rifle Company Nucleus. I replaced the X Mark trigger with a Trigger Tech Diamond shortly after these pictures were taken.

Here are pictures of the action and barrel.

Here is my F1 silencer. It uses a 1.5" titanium outer tube that is .035' thick that is compressed between the two 17-4 end caps. The inner tube is 1.25" .065" wall 304 stainless and houses the 13 cone baffles made of 17-4. The holes in the inner tube vent gasses into the space between the inner and outer tubes creating a very large blast chamber. It works extremely well with both supersonic and subsonic loads.

 

[LoanHarvey]

I made that barrel myself using an 8 twist Green Mountain barrel blank. The chassis was a XLR Carbon chassis with the hand guard removed. The railed section on the barrel was meant for a magazine tube on the shotgun. I cut the diameter of the barrel to use it.

Even with a 3.5" barrel I was able to shoot 265g bullets to supersonic velocities. It also stabilized those bullets at subsonic velocities. It was louder than longer barrels though. The action is an American Rifle Company Nucleus. I replaced the X Mark trigger with a Trigger Tech Diamond shortly after these pictures were taken.

Here are pictures of the action and barrel.
View attachment 7212107View attachment 7212108View attachment 7212109
Here is my F1 silencer. It uses a 1.5" titanium outer tube that is .035' thick that is compressed between the two 17-4 end caps. The inner tube is 1.25" .065" wall 304 stainless and houses the 13 cone baffles made of 17-4. The holes in the inner tube vent gasses into the space between the inner and outer tubes creating a very large blast chamber. It works extremely well with both supersonic and subsonic loads.
View attachment 7212115

What is the purpose of the railed section between the barrel nut and the suppressor? I am really wanting to build one of these. Did I see where you were or are selling the chassis?

 

[Dolomite_Supafly]

What is the purpose of the railed section between the barrel nut and the suppressor? I am really wanting to build one of these. Did I see where you were or are selling the chassis?

The railed section was going to be for a bipod. Never got pictures of it before I tore the gun back down.

I built it mostly so I could go back and forth between a pistol and rifle. Had I built it as a rifle first it would have to have stayed a rifle. I built it as a pistol then took pictures to settle any doubts as to whether it was a pistol first.

I already traded the chassis for another chassis. Honestly, I wish I would have kept it because the XLR Carbon is really lightweight.

Brownells was selling Model Seven receivers a few years ago. I have one that I also built into a pistol.

 

[LoanHarvey]

The railed section was going to be for a bipod. Never got pictures of it before I tore the gun back down.

I built it mostly so I could go back and forth between a pistol and rifle. Had I built it as a rifle first it would have to have stayed a rifle. I built it as a pistol then took pictures to settle any doubts as to whether it was a pistol first.

I already traded the chassis for another chassis. Honestly, I wish I would have kept it because the XLR Carbon is really lightweight.

Brownells was selling Model Seven receivers a few years ago. I have one that I also built into a pistol.
View attachment 7213019

Do you think this would work - https://gearheadworks.com/product/one-pistol-chassis-raw/
The others I found that may work are: LSS Gen 2, Black Colar Arms Pork Sword Chassis or the Accurate Mag Sport-TAc Lite Chassis.

 

[Dolomite_Supafly]

I don’t see why it would not work.

What action are you using?

 

[LoanHarvey]

I don’t see why it would not work.

What action are you using?

I have a 700 that has been setting here!

 

[Dolomite_Supafly]

I have a 700 that has been setting here!

So you are building an SBR?

 

[Easy_E]

The dang Pork sword chassis is as much as the MPA chassis . I really want a compact pistol with a brace in a rifle caliber for woodchucks . Pulling a full size rifle with a suppressor out of a Jeep is a pain and too slow from a case. Registered as a pistol in Mi it can be transported uncased and ready .

 

[sid]

I finally got most of my parts.

I cut of the front of the wooden stock.
Got a xcaliber barrel in #19 contour which is the regular Remington Sporter contour in 1/7 twist and 6mm.

I did a mock up and will end up with around 10" barrel length.

So now I will measure the final rifle length and submit my form 1

In the meantime I will look for a used dbl bottom metal and a recoil pad.

I'm using a standard rem700 trigger for now, and the total cost with the tax but without the suppressor will be just under 1000$

 

[sid]

Here is the mock-up

 

[LRI]

Personally, I equate this to setting your cruise to 71 in a 65 when you know the man is out in droves. The SBR process is lengthy, expensive, and very easy to get sideways on.

If it were me, just leave your stuff in a box until the get out of jail free card comes along. The minimal added cost of screwing a barrel on and timing a lug is pretty trivial in the grand scheme. Gun laws in the eyes of the BATF are quite vague at times and subject to the inspector/agents interpretation. Charging you with something cost them nothing, however it ties you up in court and drains your resources like no other.

Just a thought.

 

[sid]

Chad, you mean this in reference to the original post in december, where i asked if i should get it chambered while waiting on the form to return,or my post from this morning?

if you are referencing my post this morning, i assume you mean the "constructive intent" "issue"
currently the barrel blank is 17" and i have nothing on my property where i could fit that barrel or even chamber it.
the intent of building an SBR is pretty clear, i have submitted today my form 1, so they know i want to build an SBR, but i think it is also clear that the intent is to NOT break any laws.

either way, i will box up some of the stuff, and once the form is approved i will send it your way

 

[sid]

The paperwork is approved! Now to send the parts off!!

 

[blksno]

No to resurrect to much dead space but this seemed like just as good of place as any to ask.

My Bighorn TL3 has been a rifle since its first assembly. I've got 4 barrels sitting here that get swapped back and forth for matches and hunting.

Now I'm considering doing a Form1 to SBR the action so I can get a 9" 300 blk barrel for it.

Question is...what are the legalities of having a registered SBR with a full length stock and +16" barrel. Can't imagine it would be an issue as long as it's registered. It's still a rifle.
I'll most likely do the same with my Ar-15 lower. It's currently a pistol...but I plan to register as an SBR and swap uppers back and forth at will , once the Form 1 clears.

Thoughts??

 

[sid]

The way I understand it is that that's legal to do, like you said everyone does it with an AR15

But don't take my word for it, hopefully someone with additional knowledge posts here soon

 

[AMMOWASTER]

It's only a SBR if it's a SBR. It's perfectly legal to put a long barrel on it. When it's assembled with the long barrel it no longer is a SBR nor subject to the NFA rules.

 

[sid]

i realized i never posted a picture of the finished rifle in this thread

here is it finished: