SBR sidesteps/avoidance

[roostercogburn98]

Maybe get some further information on what I have dug up so far. I am curious about a project I have in my brain. I’m not against going the SBR route if that is the only legal choice I have in the matter.
-Situation is this.
I want to make a rifle(bolt action) with a 5.5 inch barrel. I want to PERMANENTLY affix some AR STYLE handguards to the BARREL in accordance with the AFT guidelines. The actual project is not the important piece. I say attach to the barrel because they state anything permanently attached to the barrel is included in OAL for barrel.

A: barrel nut material will decide how that permanent attachment is done. Since big brother says alloys and steel are not considered permanently bonded with high temp silver solder, that will include a weld. The weld has to cover 50% of circumference, or four major spot welds from my understanding. If it is steel on steel, then high temp solder it will be. That makes no difference to me. I would be ok with adding a pin in there for added measure as well. The barrel will be thick enough to not incur any damage from this procedure. The rifle will fire a pistol caliber round.

B: the handguard itself will be fastened to the “barrel nut” with high temp solder in the threads of attaching screws, and heads of attachment hardware will be made useless to any type of tool for removal. This will ensure a drill bit is used, and thus should make it permanent if I understand that correctly as well.

—-once these two tasks are done, it should be legally considered permanently attached to the barrel and OAL should include the handguard? Am I reading into this and completely wrong, or does this sound like it would be legal?
I know there are companies that attach a “shroud” to the end of short barrels to make them length compliant, and this is in the same realm, just with the shroud starting at the rear of the barrel instead of the muzzle end. Let me know what you think. Angry poor noises can be thrown out here, I have thick skin. The point is to see if it is possible without a stamp. I have stamps now, and not worried about getting one if needed, but someone will say it I’m sure.

 

[GreenCanoe]

So it sounds like you want to make a bolt action pistol, but with a stock, then? Whatever you build, send pics.

 

[strikeeagle1]

 

[Clayman]

Tac Sol has their sbx barrels. It's essentially a shroud for a suppressor. I'm not sure if its considered a muzzle device or not but it seems somewhat similar to what you are wanting to do. Well not quite. I'm not sure the barrel nut or a handguard would be considered part of the barrel even if welded like this thing.

Have you thought about just doing a jtac elf owl pistol

Or black collar arms pork sword pistol

 

[308pirate]

Maybe get some further information on what I have dug up so far. I am curious about a project I have in my brain. I’m not against going the SBR route if that is the only legal choice I have in the matter.
-Situation is this.
I want to make a rifle(bolt action) with a 5.5 inch barrel. I want to PERMANENTLY affix some AR STYLE handguards to the BARREL in accordance with the AFT guidelines. The actual project is not the important piece. I say attach to the barrel because they state anything permanently attached to the barrel is included in OAL for barrel.

A: barrel nut material will decide how that permanent attachment is done. Since big brother says alloys and steel are not considered permanently bonded with high temp silver solder, that will include a weld. The weld has to cover 50% of circumference, or four major spot welds from my understanding. If it is steel on steel, then high temp solder it will be. That makes no difference to me. I would be ok with adding a pin in there for added measure as well. The barrel will be thick enough to not incur any damage from this procedure. The rifle will fire a pistol caliber round.

B: the handguard itself will be fastened to the “barrel nut” with high temp solder in the threads of attaching screws, and heads of attachment hardware will be made useless to any type of tool for removal. This will ensure a drill bit is used, and thus should make it permanent if I understand that correctly as well.

—-once these two tasks are done, it should be legally considered permanently attached to the barrel and OAL should include the handguard? Am I reading into this and completely wrong, or does this sound like it would be legal?
I know there are companies that attach a “shroud” to the end of short barrels to make them length compliant, and this is in the same realm, just with the shroud starting at the rear of the barrel instead of the muzzle end. Let me know what you think. Angry poor noises can be thrown out here, I have thick skin. The point is to see if it is possible without a stamp. I have stamps now, and not worried about getting one if needed, but someone will say it I’m sure.

 

[hafejd30]

 

[Makinchips208]

Those pistols look awesome!

 

[308pirate]

@roostercogburn98 be like

 

[roostercogburn98]

So it sounds like you want to make a bolt action pistol, but with a stock, then? Whatever you build, send pics.

Pistol is out of the question due to the origin of the receiver.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Tac Sol has their sbx barrels. It's essentially a shroud for a suppressor. I'm not sure if its considered a muzzle device or not but it seems somewhat similar to what you are wanting to do. Well not quite. I'm not sure the barrel nut or a handguard would be considered part of the barrel even if welded like this thing.

Have you thought about just doing a jtac elf owl pistol

Or black collar arms pork sword pistol

I have been tempted to build a porksword/elf owl pistol yes. It is on my short list to do, and my BIL is currently gathering parts to do a build on one as well. This build has been on my radar for a while and just want to do it now

 

[roostercogburn98]

Hope this thread can stay on track.... but this morning I was reading about ruby ridge.
Those pistols look awesome!

When has a single track on this place stayed on track?

 

[redbullitt]

Origin of action is not considered a problem if a new custom action is used I think? Kinda like using a new stripped lower?

Definitely do not grab a random r700 and start this is my understanding.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Origin of action is not considered a problem if a new custom action is used I think? Kinda like using a new stripped lower?

Definitely do not grab a random r700 and start this is my understanding.

It’s a rifle now so has to stay a rifle or sbr it. Origin of action is the key to the question in my case. There are zero pistol braces that are designed to work with my starting action

 

[308pirate]

It’s a rifle now so has to stay a rifle or sbr it. Origin of action is the key to the question in my case. There are zero pistol braces that are designed to work with my starting action

I think his point is that you don't have to go through all these contortions if you just buy a new, unbarreled action.

Then you can make a pistol (on a chassis) with a brace and be done with it.

it might be worth to not be a groundbreaker on this one.

 

[roostercogburn98]

I think his point is that you don't have to go through all these contortions if you just buy a new, unbarreled action.

Then you can make a pistol (on a chassis) with a brace and be done with it.

it might be worth to not be a groundbreaker on this one.

If they made this action new and sold it by itself, I’d be all over it.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Or if they still made this action at all

 

[LeftyJason]

Or if they still made this action at all

Which action?

 

[308pirate]

Which action?

+1

Not sure what would warrant this kind of hassle but I'm curious.

 

[CoryT]

Well, with the attachment permanent and the action starting as a rifle, you only have one problem. The moment you cut the barrel you made an SBR. You could remove the barrel, send it out to have the work done (document that) and be OK, but that's the only way to be legal in the process.

Blind pin and weld should work fine, but hanging 11+ inches of AR handguard out there is not going to improve accuracy.

 

[TxWelder35]

Well, with the attachment permanent and the action starting as a rifle, you only have one problem. The moment you cut the barrel you made an SBR. You could remove the barrel, send it out to have the work done (document that) and be OK, but that's the only way to be legal in the process.

Blind pin and weld should work fine, but hanging 11+ inches of AR handguard out there is not going to improve accuracy.

Can you not disassemble the entire gun, then cut the barrel down, do the work on it, then reassemble? At not point would there be a functioning firearm during the build. Or let a buddy borrow the receiver while you do it

 

[CoryT]

Can you not disassemble the entire gun, then cut the barrel down, do the work on it, then reassemble? At not point would there be a functioning firearm during the build. Or let a buddy borrow the receiver while you do it

Nope. Even disassembled it becomes an SBR. Just a friend that's not in the business of working on guns would still make you "in possession". Same as owning an AR15 that sits in AZ, but you own a short barrel upper that sits in FL. If you don't have a registered SBR or MG that goes with that upper, you own an unregistered SBR.

I'm not saying it makes sense, but that is how the law works. All it takes is some moron to rat you out cutting his own deal on his/her stupid shit. You just posted your intent on a public forum. The ATF has not been shown to have a sense of humor on this stuff.

 

[TxWelder35]

Under that same logic, if you owned a pistol upper, with it attached to a braces lower, and any completed lower with a rifle stock wouldn’t that technically put you in possession of an SBR also? I’ve never heard of the aft being that strict about constructive intent

 

[TxWelder35]

Nope. Even disassembled it becomes an SBR. Just a friend that's not in the business of working on guns would still make you "in possession". Same as owning an AR15 that sits in AZ, but you own a short barrel upper that sits in FL. If you don't have a registered SBR or MG that goes with that upper, you own an unregistered SBR.

I'm not saying it makes sense, but that is how the law works. All it takes is some moron to rat you out cutting his own deal on his/her stupid shit. You just posted your intent on a public forum. The ATF has not been shown to have a sense of humor on this stuff.

Under that same logic, if you owned a pistol upper, with it attached to a braces lower, and any completed lower with a rifle stock wouldn’t that technically put you in possession of an SBR also? I’ve never heard of the aft being that strict about constructive intent

 

[roostercogburn98]

Which action?

+1

Not sure what would warrant this kind of hassle but I'm curious.

Action is irrelevant to the build, so that would just muddy the conversation and take it in a different direction not needed. I’ll post it all when it is complete though

 

[roostercogburn98]

Well, with the attachment permanent and the action starting as a rifle, you only have one problem. The moment you cut the barrel you made an SBR. You could remove the barrel, send it out to have the work done (document that) and be OK, but that's the only way to be legal in the process.

Blind pin and weld should work fine, but hanging 11+ inches of AR handguard out there is not going to improve accuracy.

Barrel will never be cut. It will be a fresh barrel spun to fit my need when dimensions are figured out. The rough estimate for barrel diameter is 1.25 or maybe thicker and 5 or 5.5 inches long, so I don’t believe the HG will have much impact on accuracy. We are talking about a pistol caliber round as well, so accuracy will be limited as well as range.

Correct me if I am misreading, but I thought the courts already decided that constructive intent was if the swap was readily available or doable? Not arguing the point you made, that is the why I am reaching out to the knowledge of this site. In the end, a call to technical branch may be warranted to see if there are any cases in the same realm of my question. Nothing will be done until it is verified legal though.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Blind pin and weld should work fine, but hanging 11+ inches of AR handguard out there is not going to improve accuracy.

HG will not be hanging off the end of barrel. It will be close to the chamber end. A majority of any flex should be stopped by the fact the action is close to the HG mount and the barrel is so thick at the mounting area.

To add to this, I have none of these parts yet. This thread is to figure out the little bugs that would put me in a bad spot with big brother. Can’t spin the barrel until I know the tenon length and pitch, or know how big the hole in the barrel nut is so the barrel will be a thermal fit and ensure a better permanent attachment. I have to find the correct HG that has enough room to fit my can that I wouyld like to use on this gun as well. In essence, it all revolves around a handguard that will accommodate a 1.75 inch suppressor.

 

[CoryT]

Under that same logic, if you owned a pistol upper, with it attached to a braces lower, and any completed lower with a rifle stock wouldn’t that technically put you in possession of an SBR also? I’ve never heard of the aft being that strict about constructive intent

In this case you have a legal configuration for the short upper, along with another lower. That's OK. The trouble comes when you have no legal configuration for the short barrel.

 

[CoryT]

HG will not be hanging off the end of barrel. It will be close to the chamber end. A majority of any flex should be stopped by the fact the action is close to the HG mount and the barrel is so thick at the mounting area.

To add to this, I have none of these parts yet. This thread is to figure out the little bugs that would put me in a bad spot with big brother. Can’t spin the barrel until I know the tenon length and pitch, or know how big the hole in the barrel nut is so the barrel will be a thermal fit and ensure a better permanent attachment. I have to find the correct HG that has enough room to fit my can that I wouyld like to use on this gun as well. In essence, it all revolves around a handguard that will accommodate a 1.75 inch suppressor.

Ahh, I see now. Like a Savage action barrel nut. OK, now you need to permanently attach the nut to the barrel, and I don't see how that can happen while the barrel is still at a legal length. If the nut/handguard could be removed from the barrel, you'd be in trouble. If the suppressor was long enough you could have it welded in place. Perhaps you could make a collar for the barrel just ahead of the nut, pin and weld it, then pic and weld the handguard to that. Now the barrel nut works, but the 'barrel length' is fixed at a legal length. Then the suppressor can be on or off, no issue there.

You could end up with a finished system that would be legal, but it would still be an SBR during the build process. While this seems unlikely to cause trouble, it would have that potential if push ever came to shove. You should be safe if you send the barrel out for the work and document it.

 

[roostercogburn98]

Ahh, I see now. Like a Savage action barrel nut. OK, now you need to permanently attach the nut to the barrel, and I don't see how that can happen while the barrel is still at a legal length. If the nut/handguard could be removed from the barrel, you'd be in trouble. If the suppressor was long enough you could have it welded in place. Perhaps you could make a collar for the barrel just ahead of the nut, pin and weld it, then pic and weld the handguard to that. Now the barrel nut works, but the 'barrel length' is fixed at a legal length. Then the suppressor can be on or off, no issue there.

You could end up with a finished system that would be legal, but it would still be an SBR during the build process. While this seems unlikely to cause trouble, it would have that potential if push ever came to shove. You should be safe if you send the barrel out for the work and document it.

More or less the reason for this thread. There is plenty of room in the gray area to build it. I don’t wish to roam too far into that area and have someone slap me with a case. Seems more thought or sketching is in order.

Thank you for your insight on a detail I hadn’t thought about.

 

[RayDBonz]

I once had a Pachmayr Dominator.
It's a .308 bolt action upper for a 1911.
Just a pistol with no paperwork needed.
Maybe play with one of those while contemplating. . .

 

[roostercogburn98]

I once had a Pachmayr Dominator.
It's a .308 bolt action upper for a 1911.
Just a pistol with no paperwork needed.
Maybe play with one of those while contemplating. . .

Interesting for sure. Not what I am going for. I’m kinda an all in our out guy. Guess that old cadence comes to mind, “my way or the highway”?