Suppressors SBR/Trust Transport Question

CMH

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  • Dec 17, 2010
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    Billings, MT
    I know about the requirement to file a form with the ATF to travel outside your home state with an SBR. However, can you add a Trustee to your trust from outside your home state? And if so, could you then transport an SBR in that state without paperwork? States would be geographically adjoining (No transport through other states that at least one Trustee does not reside in), and both states are SBR and Suppressor OK. Trustee is someone I would legitimately add, and not a shill to just get around this law, if adding such a person would be legal. Not sure if this is even worth the hassle or just better off to file the paperwork every year.

    Also, I am well aware of the risks of taking legal advice off the interwebz, etc. If this seems feasible, I will contact my trust attorney before attempting to proceed. Just something I thought of and I was interested if others have run into this, or thought about it. What say you all?
     
    I know about the requirement to file a form with the ATF to travel outside your home state with an SBR. However, can you add a Trustee to your trust from outside your home state? And if so, could you then transport an SBR in that state without paperwork? States would be geographically adjoining (No transport through other states that at least one Trustee does not reside in), and both states are SBR and Suppressor OK. Trustee is someone I would legitimately add, and not a shill to just get around this law, if adding such a person would be legal. Not sure if this is even worth the hassle or just better off to file the paperwork every year.

    Also, I am well aware of the risks of taking legal advice off the interwebz, etc. If this seems feasible, I will contact my trust attorney before attempting to proceed. Just something I thought of and I was interested if others have run into this, or thought about it. What say you all?

    I would say no. The requirement for getting permission (not just notification) for interstate transportation is attached to the NFA item itself, not the entity that owns it. Thus, even if the entity is organized in Ohio, but the NFA item is warehoused or stored in Nevada (a machine gun used by a casino for protection for example), which it lawfully may be, transporting the NFA item across any state line requires prior authorization from the BATFE.

    Of course, the real question is whether this requirement is itself lawful, since the GCA and NFA are TAX STATUTES. The BATFE can collect a tax on NFA items, just like it does on liquor, but does it have the legal authority to demand that a liquor distributor as for prior permission to ship a truckload of liquor from one state to another? I don't think so. It can INSPECT shipments of liquor, or NFA items, to ensure that the items are properly taxed and sealed...and it may, according to federal law enter ANY PLACE where a taxable item is stored to inspect the tax seals/stamps WITHOUT WARRANT or probable cause.

    But can it demand that prior permission for movement across state lines be granted? I really don't think so, but I'm going to research the cases a bit anyway.
     
    Call the NFA folks at the ATF. I have found them quite helpful. We might not get the answer we want, and might get different answers on different days, and might get different answers from different people, but document the answer if there is any doubt.

    Yes, you can add a person from another state as a trustee to your trust. My logic in thinking through the next question "could you then transport an SBR in that state without paperwork?" is, a trust is valid in the state in which it was written, signed and notarized. The Form 4 was approved with an address (ie. a specified state) of the trust. If the approved device leaves the approved state, an ATF Form 5320.20 Application To Transport Interstate or to Temporarily Export Certain NFA Firearms, is required. Temporary or permanent transportation of the firearm is another part of the question, but I think you are only talking temporary. So, I believe the 5320.20 is required. I have not heard of a request being denied.

    ATF Form 4 (5320.4) reads: Interstate Movement: If the firearm identified in the item 4 is a machinegun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, or destructive device, the registrant may be required by 18 U.S.C. §922(a)(4) to obtain permission form ATF prior to any transportation in interstate or foreign commerce.

    From the NFA Handbook:
    Definitions: Person. A partnership, company, association, trust, estate, or corporation, as well as a natural person.

    Section 9.3 Interstate transfers of NFA firearms. ATF will not approve the transfer of an NFA
    firearm to a non-FFL/SOT residing in a State other than the State in which the transferor’s licensed
    business is located or the transferor resides. Such interstate transfers would violate the GCA.

    Section 13.8. Requesting permission to transport certain firearms in interstate or foreign
    commerce. A person, other than an FFL/SOT, may not lawfully transport in interstate or foreign
    commerce any destructive device, machinegun, short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, without
    prior written approval of ATF, specifically the NFA Branch.214 For definitions of these firearms and
    devices, refer to 27 CFR 478.11. Licensed collectors are not required to obtain such approval if the
    firearms and devices being transported are “curio or relic” firearms under the GCA. Approval for the
    transportation may be obtained by (1) a written request or (2) an approved application filed with ATF on
    Form 5320.20.

    13.8.1 A written (letter) request. A written (letter) request must contain:
    (1) A complete description and identification of the device or firearm to be transported;
    (2) A statement whether the transportation involves a transfer of title;
    (3) The need for such transportation;
    (4) The approximate date the transportation is to take place;
    (5) The present location of the device or firearm and the place to which it is being transported.
    (6) The mode of transportation to be used (including, if by common or contract carrier, the name
    and address of the carrier); and
    (7) Evidence that the transportation or possession of the device or firearm is not inconsistent
    with the laws at the place of destination.

    13.8.2 Form 5320.20. As stated above, transportation of these firearms and devices may also be
    approved by completing and filing this form and obtaining ATF approval of the form.

    13.8.3 One-year approval. If a person will be transporting his/her firearm(s) to the same location on a
    continual basis, ATF will approve a transportation request for up to 1 year. Example: the person lives in
    State A, has a farm in State B (State B allows possession of the particular firearm), and wants to take the
    firearm to the farm throughout the year. The person may request permission for a 1-year period to
    transport the firearm interstate to the farm. Any other interstate transportation would still require a
    separate request and approval. Second example: the person lives in State A and wants to transport
    his/her firearm to a site in State B where competitions and shoots occur several times a year (State B
    allows possession of the particular firearm). The person may request permission for a 1-year period to
    transport the firearm interstate to the site for competitions and shoots. Any other interstate
    transportation would still require a separate request and approval.

    SUBCHAPTER C - PROHIBITED ACTS
    § 5861 Prohibited acts.
    It shall be unlawful for any person:
    (j) to transport, deliver, or receive any firearm in interstate commerce which has not been registered as
    required by this chapter
     
    Good discussion and points so far. A followup question: how does merely transporting a duly stamped firearm for personal or non-business purposes constitute "commerce?"
     
    SBR/Trust Transport Question

    It doesn't have to. The Commerce Clause gives the government the authority to regulate. When it has the authority the regulation takes place regardless of whether there is commerce in individual cases.
     
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    It doesn't have to. The Commerce Clause gives the government the authority to regulate. When it has the authority the regulation takes place regardless of whether there is commerce in individual cases.

    Yes. The best example of Commerce Clause authority is found in Wickard v. Filburn, a case from the Depression era where FDR's Department of Agriculture took action against a farmer who grew 11 acres more wheat than he was allocated to grow under FDR's Agricultural Adjustment Act. This Act gave FDR the power to dictate how much wheat could be grown and marketed. It was part of FDR's deliberate suppression of food production during the Depression in order to create artificial shortages in order to keep prices up, which FDR thought would help the economy recover (it didn't). Filburn's 11 acres of excess wheat were grown and used on his farm, to feed his family and his livestock, none of which ever entered commerce at all. The Court (a very Progressive one) ruled that because Filburn grew wheat that he was forbidden to grow he did not have to buy wheat in the government-controlled marketplace. This, the Court concluded, if done by many people, would "affect" interstate commerce in wheat by reducing demand and thereby interfering with FDR's desire to control the market for wheat.

    Other Court precedents have upheld the notion that if an objects, or any part of an object, or in some cases the raw materials that object is made from ever enter "interstate commerce" by either physically crossing a state line or by "affecting" interstate commerce in literally any way, Congress can regulate that object even if the object itself never crosses a state line or is never used in "commerce" and is only used by a private individual.

    The effect of these Progressive-era rulings is that there is almost nothing that Congress cannot regulate because nearly everything will in some way or another "affect" interstate commerce according to the Wickard v. Filburn rationale.

    In the last decade the Supreme Court has made a few minor adjustments to this near-plenary power of Congress to interfere with the lives of individuals using the Commerce Clause power. The most pertinent is gun related. The Court threw out a law that prohibited the possession of firearms within 1000 feet of a school by ruling that the justification for invoking Commerce Clause authority to make such a law was that schoolchildren eventually grow up to be workers who may move between states and therefore the federal government had authority to regulate gun possession near schools in order to protect these nascent workers in "interstate commerce." The court, after decades of deferring to this sort of assertion on the part of the government finally held that the alleged link to interstate commerce was too tenuous and that if upheld would grant the Congress virtually unlimited power to regulate every aspect of our lives, which defies the very concept of limited government enshrined in the Constitution.

    It was a small but important victory.

    But it still remains true that if the device or service ever enters interstate commerce, Congress can regulate it as it sees fit. The purpose of the "permission slip" for NFA items is to discourage interstate "commerce" in NFA articles by tightly regulating their possession, transfer and transport. This was done because at the time the GCA was passed the use of machine guns other NFA items was allegedly problematic for the federal government during the Gangster Era. It's probably an entirely unnecessary regulation now, but government agencies are loathe to give up power and control once they have it.

    But, in point of fact that's exactly what happened with regard to suppressors. The BATFE has exempted suppressors from the requirement to obtain prior permission to transport them across state lines, although this does nothing to guard against state prosecution if you transport it into a state where suppressors are unlawful, and they specifically say this in the manual. In theory, the Volkmer-McClure Act, which guarantees the right to transport firearms through states where it is unlawful to possess them, including stopping enroute, so long as your destination is to a place where the firearm is lawful, and this ought to apply to suppressors as well, as they are classified as "firearms" in the law.

    However, some states, New Jersey and New York being notable among them, often ignore Volkmer-McClure and routinely arrest people traveling through their states in possession of "illegal" weapons (like any handgun that can hold more than 7 rounds), and seizing (permanently) the "illegal" firearms.

    So the upshot is that you do not have to file the form to transport a suppressor interstate, but you still need to comply with state laws and be careful when transporting them so as not to get them seized by some overzealous cop.