Rifle Scopes SCAR 17S: swarovski-z6i-17-10x42 vs elcan 1.5-6x

[useruser]

Hello Forum,

I need your opinion on the optics choice for S17. swarovski-z6i-17-10x42 vs elcan 1.5-6x

Applications:
- Steady visits to a 100y range that is close by
- Semi-steady visits to 200+ range.
- I would LOVE to start getting involved in 3 gun competitions. I need to get my a$$ out to a local event to check it out.

Please dont bash me if the two choice I have are not even compatible, i.e. same class, application, purpose. I'm a newbie, but my eyes are sore from doing research for the last month. I know this much Swar is a hunting scope and Elcon is multi-role (CQB/mid range). However it seems to me that swar has an advantage w X10 magnification on the far end.

Big thanks in advance for all your input!!!

God Bless,
user

 

[Cobracutter]

Anything but the ELCAN, Really.

There are much better choices, but given the two, go with the swaro and make sure it's mounted solid.

One of the 1-6/8 or a Nightforce 2.5-10 would be superior to both.

 

[useruser]

Thank you sir!! Which 1-6/8 are you referring to? So nightforce 2.5-10 over z6i-17-10x42, even though svaro is close to zero @ 1.7 vs nf @ 2.5???

Cheers!

Anything but the ELCAN, Really.

There are much better choices, but given the two, go with the swaro and make sure it's mounted solid.

One of the 1-6/8 or a Nightforce 2.5-10 would be superior to both.

 

[useruser]

Thank you for the quick reply!

Which 1-6/8 are you referring to? With regards to 2.5-10 . You would choose it over z6i-17-10x42 even though "start magnification" is closer to zero 2.5 vs. 1.7?

Anything but the ELCAN, Really.

There are much better choices, but given the two, go with the swaro and make sure it's mounted solid.

One of the 1-6/8 or a Nightforce 2.5-10 would be superior to both.

 

[Desert_Racer]

Bushnell - SMRS 1-6.5x 24mm, SFP

I've been running mine on my SCAR17 for a little over a year now. I love it and I believe its the perfect fit for the SCAR17. I'm considering purchasing another for my AR15 when I can free up some scratch.

 

[Victor Co Heather]

I prefer the Trijicon ACOG 3.5 x 35 TA11E on my SCAR17. I've tried some real scope but the ACOG really fits the bill. I would think the ELCAN would also be a good choice though I have never tried one on my rig.

 

[Cobracutter]

CSAR is Spot on like always.

The Bushnell 1-6.5/8.5 in SFP are great optics for the money. The one issue they have is they are not exactly daylight illuminated. Some other good choices are SWFA 1-6, USO 1-8, USO 1.5-6 DFP (if they even make it), NXS 1-4 and even the Vortex HD 1-6 if you can stomach their shitty retticles.

For the 17, Stick to rubust optics. They are hell on optics so Nightforce is always a good choice. I go back and forth, and realisticaly, the 17 is not a CQB gun. It can be used as one, but its suboptimal. Get some magnification and take advantage of that round.

The NF 2.5-10x32, NF 3-15 and the USO 1-8x would be my top 3 choices. A TA 11 or TA 33 would also not be a horrible idea.

 

[Cobracutter]

Thank you for the quick reply!

Which 1-6/8 are you referring to? With regards to 2.5-10 . You would choose it over z6i-17-10x42 even though "start magnification" is closer to zero 2.5 vs. 1.7?

Swaro is not really a proven optic that gets run hard in numbers. I don't know if I would feel comfortable dropping that kind of cash on something that might not hold up to the 17, which if any gun will destoy an optic, its the 17.

 

[Opticsspecialist]

swarovski would be tough to beat.

 

[355sigfan]

Love my Swaro 1-6 but on the SCAR get a Vortex Razor 2 or the Leupold MK6 basically something with a lifetime warranty as the SCAR 17 eats optics as Cobra has finally admitted in this thread.
Pat

 

[Cobracutter]

Ive always contended that the 17 is rough on CHEAP optics. CHEAP optics, have no place on them.... Feel free to search out my posts.

The only way a SCAR17/MK17 is going to eat quality optics is durring INSANE firing schedules and/or full auto. It's been tested, by socom, and is why there is a PIP in place to mitigate the issue.

99.999% of shooters could not afford to shoot the ammount needed to make this happen.

 

[355sigfan]

Except price has no bearing on it. The reality is the SCAR 17 is hard on optics period as you admitted in this thread.
Pat

 

[Cobracutter]

Only a fool would see Cheap and Quality in the same couple sentances and not understand the relationship.

You know exactly what is being said, but like usual, you want to play semantics and act like a douchebag beacuse you have a hard on for someone who proves you wrong , almost daily

I get it, you don't like that your bullshit gets called out. That is your problem. Go hang out on Brian Ernos or the Doodyproject or any other site for the clowns who think gun games is the measure of a weapon/accessory.

Leave the shit out of this thread, and go find a therapist.

 

[355sigfan]

The only one needing a therapist here is you based on your angry little man complex posts. Lol. Also for the record you have not proven anyone wrong. You have just angrily expressed your opinions like a little toddler throwing a tantrum. Its actually kind of funny to watch and see what you are going to post next.
Pat

 

[useruser]

My 2nd post and I started a war?? Oops.. Any other input help me choose gents.

 

[Cobracutter]

Not your fault dude. Everytime I post its the same select group of people who go for a spin.

They just believe whatever they want despite the facts being laid out. You will be able to to decide soon enough who is worth listening to and who is just running their face.


Do you have a budget? Do you have a "goal" (hunting, battle rifle, DMR, door kicking) for what you want the rifle to be? The awsner for that could range from a Eotech to a S&B 5-25?

While the 17 is a great gun, it's probally not the best tool for 3 gun. Expensive to shoot, more recoil and slower times. There are a bunch of good 5.56 game guns you can buy or even build that would work much better for that.

 

[Schleifalot]

Swarovski is one of the top notch european optics manufacturers. It is par with S&B, Zeiss Hensoldt and Kahles, better than Steiner IMHO.
Swaro has typical european hunting optics in their product portfolio. Kahles belongs to the Swarovski concern and has taken up the tactical market. So swaro does not manufacture tac scopes or is interested in mil/LE contracts.
So, Swarovski is a big unknown over at your side of the pond, because they aim for the hunter with serious money in Europe. Although they want to open the US market for them with the Z3 and Z5 series.

Last week I bought a Swaro Habicht PV 1,5 - 6 x42 in mint condition, produced in 1995. This scope is brilliantly clear, one of the best i've looked through. I will mount it on my AR as an old style multi purpose scope.

I strongly doubt that a NXS 2,5-10x42 is significantly better than a Swaro. I doubt it is better altogether.

What does better mean? Better for what purpose?
Hunting? What kind of hunting, stalking, drive hunting or sitting in a blind? (I know only European ways)
3Gun? Then compare a 1-6 to another 1-6 glass
Will the SCAR eat the Swaro scope? If yea, it will eat every other scope too.

I think you have to compare the candidates considering the specific tasks you have for your rifle optic combo.

One very important point is customer service, like it was mentioned here. Swarovski has excellent service. I wrote them about my used scope, some questions. The next day I had all my answers. I know a hunter who sent in a used scope (like mine) for a service check. He had it back three days later.
Reticle change costs 260€ over here.

In the USA, I would probably buy an US scope. Short ways for customer support.

I was considering new a Vortex or Bushnell scope. But for service and support it will have to be sent to the US. A NOGO for me, way too much hassle.

In short:
Swarovski is great, but you have to check if the product is great for your needs too!

 

[Cobracutter]

Schleifalot,

May I ask what is it "better" in?

Light transmision/Glass/Clarity.....Yea most deffinatley

Durrability and Reliability...... I don't think they are going to beat out Nightforce.

With the SCAR17, it would be prudent to lean towards the more robust built optics.

Swaro has been in the US for a long time, its always been a very high end, expensive hunting scope.

Combat Optics and Hunting/Game Optics have different requirements.

 

[Eblade2004]

I run a gen2 razor 1-6 mil reticle on my 17 and it suits my needs. I agree with Cobracutter, there are better reticles out there.

 

[Arc Light]

I have a Swarovski 6-24x50 Habicht PV-S bought new in the 1990's sitting atop my Tikka M595 .308 and I have yet to look through a scope that has superior glass. I would rank Swarovski and Zeiss as having the best glass in sporting optics. But, like Cobra alluded to, it looks and feels more delicate than say a Nightforce or even an SWFA scope. I would not be putting it on a battle rifle or hard use weapon.

 

[Victor Co Heather]

SCAR 17 with the ACOG 35.x35 TA11E

 

[Schleifalot]

Schleifalot,

May I ask what is it "better" in?

Light transmision/Glass/Clarity.....Yea most deffinatley

Durrability and Reliability...... I don't think they are going to beat out Nightforce.

With the SCAR17, it would be prudent to lean towards the more robust built optics.

Swaro has been in the US for a long time, its always been a very high end, expensive hunting scope.

Combat Optics and Hunting/Game Optics have different requirements.

Where is the Swaro better than the NXS.....
I know some NXS scopes from friends, own myself a NF. Clarity is lower than in Zeiss/S&B/Kahles/Swaro, that are my perceptions. For another guy it may be different.
Durability: I never broke an optic, the nxs are very well made. Do not underestimate the lighter scopes, heavy does not automatically equal robust.
Illumination: The older NXS illum sucks, it is impractical to change the brightness. I hope the new gen is better. The Z6i switch is too big, illum is OK

Sharpness over the FOV: In this order Kahles>Swaro>S&B>Zeiss, yes, Zeiss sucks in sharpness in the outer third of FOV. I can't place the nxs in my ranking (too long ago), but better than Zeiss. Again my perception, no absolute

In my first post I was not clear enough. In my opinion there is no best manufacturer at the top level optics. But there is the best scope for the intended purpose/rifle/system.

I was looking for a 1,5-6x42 FF mil adjustment in CW reticle 4 from S&B or Kahles as a universal optic for my AR15. A 1-6 would be a leetle better suited, but the 1,5-6 are out of fashion, so they can be found for a good price.
I bought my Swaro on a whim, fair price, good condition. I got FF mil adjustment CCW reticle 1. Not my perfect choice, but good enough.

What will the intended role of the thread opener fill best? What good enough?

I think the Swaro is better suited for his purpose than the Elcan. The Elcan is a heavy piece, not funny hauling along for hours. If the durability problems with the Elcans are real, it is a no brainer.

NXS 2,5-10x is a good hunting/universal scope. For 3gun a 1-4/5or6x is better.

If the SCAR eats optics, go for the best customer service.

 

[355sigfan]

Where is the Swaro better than the NXS.....
I know some NXS scopes from friends, own myself a NF. Clarity is lower than in Zeiss/S&B/Kahles/Swaro, that are my perceptions. For another guy it may be different.
Durability: I never broke an optic, the nxs are very well made. Do not underestimate the lighter scopes, heavy does not automatically equal robust.
Illumination: The older NXS illum sucks, it is impractical to change the brightness. I hope the new gen is better. The Z6i switch is too big, illum is OK

Sharpness over the FOV: In this order Kahles>Swaro>S&B>Zeiss, yes, Zeiss sucks in sharpness in the outer third of FOV. I can't place the nxs in my ranking (too long ago), but better than Zeiss. Again my perception, no absolute

In my first post I was not clear enough. In my opinion there is no best manufacturer at the top level optics. But there is the best scope for the intended purpose/rifle/system.

I was looking for a 1,5-6x42 FF mil adjustment in CW reticle 4 from S&B or Kahles as a universal optic for my AR15. A 1-6 would be a leetle better suited, but the 1,5-6 are out of fashion, so they can be found for a good price.
I bought my Swaro on a whim, fair price, good condition. I got FF mil adjustment CCW reticle 1. Not my perfect choice, but good enough.

What will the intended role of the thread opener fill best? What good enough?

I think the Swaro is better suited for his purpose than the Elcan. The Elcan is a heavy piece, not funny hauling along for hours. If the durability problems with the Elcans are real, it is a no brainer.

NXS 2,5-10x is a good hunting/universal scope. For 3gun a 1-4/5or6x is better.

If the SCAR eats optics, go for the best customer service.

The Swarovski is crisper and more clear than the Nightforce scopes I have owned. Not a dig on Nightforce their glass is good but Swarovski is a step above. The detail I can see is amazing to me. I will never part with my 1-6 Z6I. I agree that with the SCAR 17 you want an optic that comes with a lifetime warranty because sooner or later you probably are going to use it.
Pat

 

[TacosGigante]

While the 17 is a great gun, it's probally not the best tool for 3 gun. Expensive to shoot, more recoil and slower times. There are a bunch of good 5.56 game guns you can buy or even build that would work much better for that.

True, though with a 308, pump 12 gauge and 45 (and maybe just major power factor) pistol you could shoot heavy metal. Beard and bear skin from a bear you killed with your bare hands optional.

 

[355sigfan]

True, though with a 308, pump 12 gauge and 45 (and maybe just major power factor) pistol you could shoot heavy metal. Beard and bear skin from a bear you killed with your bare hands optional.

I know Eric Lund on the FN team has done well with it in Heavy Tac Optics. Cobra obviously does not know anything about three gun matches or he would be familiar with the different divisions. In Heavy Metal or at the matches that have it heavy tac optics is a perfectly fine place for the SCAR 17.
Pat

 

[useruser]

Wow! This forum is hot! I love all of you gusy already!! This great to have a such a heated debate! Honestly, I'm old enough to know that if group of people agree on any topic, there is something wrong /w the group! Just be civil

So... Newbie.. UserUser.. what am I going to use the scope for? For now? range @ a 100 yards. I WILL find one that has a longer distance. I WOULD LOVE get engaged in 3 gun sooner or later. I am willing to spend up to 3gs (I do work HARD for my money. I turn 40 on Saturday and I deserve a good present ). Because I earn my money hard way, I want to spend and spend once for some time, i.e. a universal scope /w RD or illuminated that will allow me to keep cool tight groups @ the kid distance of 100/200 and also get out and roll in mud /w you cool 3gun dudes. Help?

 

[useruser]

Why are my posts are being deleted/not posted? no profanities. just questions ...?

 

[Javelin]

I've not heard anyone stating their Z6i went down on a scar. But then if it did Swarovski would fix it. So.... What's the issue?

 

[useruser]

Any advice on Leupold Mark 8 1.1-8x24mm? looks like this is a win win for what I need and more. MY other choice is Elcon but im getting a feeling that folks here do not like it too much. However FN forums are raving about Elcon.. advice..

 

[Redmanss]

Why are my posts are being deleted/not posted? no profanities. just questions ...?

That's part of the pain being a new user on the forum, I believe it's to hold back the tide of spammers that used to come around on the old format. Links and whatnot gets them moderated more... Hang out and keep posting, you'll get through it.

As for your scope selections, you have a few options. The best bet is to get behind them for a test run. I know that can be difficult depending on where you are, but of course that's best case. Swaro, Khales, Vortex Razor would all be great choices but I would recommend going with a true 1x on the bottom end. For close to mid range shooting, the 1x will pay off more than more magnification will on the top end. If 3-Gun is your intended game, most definitely go with a 1x. At distances of 500yds and in on IPSC sized targets, 6x is more than enough for reliable identification and accurate engagement on target.

Really it comes down to intended use. I'll put it this way, I have a SCAR 17s inbound and have been going through the same optic selection thought process. I've selected a few for my endeavor to see where I will end up. EOTech EXPS 3-0, Vortex Razor II 1-6x, Leupold CQBSS 1.1-8x, NF 2.5-10x24 and S&B 3-12x50. I'm lucky to have a nice selection on hand from other projects to get testing done with. The biggest question I myself have is deciding what I want the package to do, light and agile as I believe it should be or heavier and distance goer if it ends up being more accurate than I expect, then go from there.

Whatever you select, just make sure it fits your overall intended role of the rifle system.

 

[useruser]

Thank you brother! I appreciate the input. Unfortunately I am a newbie (yes, im not to shy to say it again ) and have no one I can pair up to checkout the optics. Sucks! But, I learned from my other hobbies that the gear you purchase must the best you can afford OR you will be sorry and will by twice.

What are your thoughts on Leupold Mark 8 1.1-8x24mm Cqbss ??? It seems to be agile enough and almost true zero (1.1). How does it stack up against Elcon 1.5x6?

Cheers!!1

That's part of the pain being a new user on the forum, I believe it's to hold back the tide of spammers that used to come around on the old format. Links and whatnot gets them moderated more... Hang out and keep posting, you'll get through it.

As for your scope selections, you have a few options. The best bet is to get behind them for a test run. I know that can be difficult depending on where you are, but of course that's best case. Swaro, Khales, Vortex Razor would all be great choices but I would recommend going with a true 1x on the bottom end. For close to mid range shooting, the 1x will pay off more than more magnification will on the top end. If 3-Gun is your intended game, most definitely go with a 1x. At distances of 500yds and in on IPSC sized targets, 6x is more than enough for reliable identification and accurate engagement on target.

Really it comes down to intended use. I'll put it this way, I have a SCAR 17s inbound and have been going through the same optic selection thought process. I've selected a few for my endeavor to see where I will end up. EOTech EXPS 3-0, Vortex Razor II 1-6x, Leupold CQBSS 1.1-8x, NF 2.5-10x24 and S&B 3-12x50. I'm lucky to have a nice selection on hand from other projects to get testing done with. The biggest question I myself have is deciding what I want the package to do, light and agile as I believe it should be or heavier and distance goer if it ends up being more accurate than I expect, then go from there.

Whatever you select, just make sure it fits your overall intended role of the rifle system.

 

[liv4spd]

Any advice on Leupold Mark 8 1.1-8x24mm?

^this is where my $$$ is going for the same application. Lots of reviews (including a number of them on this site) - quick search will bring one up. I'll be going with the h27d reticle since it's illumination daylight bright, and it's just a great all around kit. Relatively light weight too.

PS.. If I were you, I'd forget about the Elcan.

 

[Redmanss]

I'm not an Elcan shooter so I can't give you a definitive comparison, shot with one a whole one time. I personally believe the Elcan scope is limiting by the reticle for sport shooting. It's a combat type scope and performs well in that aspect just like an ACOG does, but for sport shooting there are better places to spend your money. There was a recent thread about the same and I said the same there as well.

As for the CQBSS, it's a wonderful scope but I personally will never spend the upcharge for Horus anything, mine is the M-TMR. I've written my opinion on it several times and a quick search should reveal what I've said in the past. Honestly though if you're looking to seriously shoot 3-Gun, I would get a scope directed at 3-Gun speeds such as the Swaro/Vortex/Khales 1-6x. If you're wanting to have a versatile scope that is good for 6-600m, the CQBSS is a fine choice.

 

[useruser]

Thanks for the input! Is this your model? Does the red dot light up and visible during day time shooting?

Mark 8 1.1-8x24mm CQBSS M5B1 Front Focal

I'm not an Elcan shooter so I can't give you a definitive comparison, shot with one a whole one time. I personally believe the Elcan scope is limiting by the reticle for sport shooting. It's a combat type scope and performs well in that aspect just like an ACOG does, but for sport shooting there are better places to spend your money. There was a recent thread about the same and I said the same there as well.

As for the CQBSS, it's a wonderful scope but I personally will never spend the upcharge for Horus anything, mine is the M-TMR. I've written my opinion on it several times and a quick search should reveal what I've said in the past. Honestly though if you're looking to seriously shoot 3-Gun, I would get a scope directed at 3-Gun speeds such as the Swaro/Vortex/Khales 1-6x. If you're wanting to have a versatile scope that is good for 6-600m, the CQBSS is a fine choice.

 

[liv4spd]

Does the red dot light up and visible during day time shooting?

Mark 8 1.1-8x24mm CQBSS M5B1 Front Focal

There is only one Mark 8 model in CQBSS... though, there are variances in reticle options.

Front Focal M-TMR (Illuminated) Reticle Front Focal M-TMR (Illuminated) <-- Not daylight Bright
Product #110121

Front Focal H-27D (Illuminated) Reticle Front Focal H-27D (Illuminated) <-- Daylight Bright
Product #112564

 

[useruser]

Big thanks!!!

So I think you said you have M-TMR? None daylight bright? What is the point to RD if you cannot see it then?

There is only one Mark 8 model in CQBSS... though, there are variances in reticle options.

Front Focal M-TMR (Illuminated) Reticle Front Focal M-TMR (Illuminated) <-- Not daylight Bright
Product #110121

Front Focal H-27D (Illuminated) Reticle Front Focal H-27D (Illuminated) <-- Daylight Bright
Product #112564

 

[liv4spd]

I don't have either, yet, though I will be buying the CQBSS with the H-27D when funds allow.

Even w/o a daylight bright reticle, one can still make a strong argument for illumination in low-light situations (dusk/dawn). But, for me, since I'm looking for the optic to serve multiple purposes (shooting from 5-800yrds, during the day).. and, with the FFP reticles getting fairly small @ 1.1 power, I prefer having the daylight bright reticle for short range use (quick pickup). Personal preference of course.

The TMR-D is a fine reticle (that will save you a fair amount of coin) for what is an outstanding optic. If it's illumination was daylight bright, it would most probably be my first choice, TBH. That not being the case.. I know I really want daylight illum.. and prefer to "buy-once, cry-once" and get the most fitting optic the first time w/o regret. YMMV

 

[Cobracutter]

An optic without daylight bright illumination is useless as a 1x sight for reflex/CQB fire. Might as well go with a 2.5/3-15 or other optic where you can save money, increase magnification range, and not be crippled by a compromising reticle.

 

[355sigfan]

Wrong again cobra. A 1 x no illuminated optic is far from useless lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Redmanss]

An optic without daylight bright illumination is useless as a 1x sight for reflex/CQB fire. Might as well go with a 2.5/3-15 or other optic where you can save money, increase magnification range, and not be crippled by a compromising reticle.

I disagree there, it's only similar to shooting with iron sights. Far from useless, but not ideal for the gun games. The M-TMR illumination is very useful in good treeline cover, even during full daylight.

 

[355sigfan]

What you need is a bold easy to see reticle. That can be done. Without illumination That said I prefer day light illumination in my optics


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Schleifalot]

Did you look at the new Kahles 1-5 and 1-6 x 24 scopes? They are in the price limit. OK, thea are expensive.

But Kahles builds outstanding optics.

Lookie
K15i/K16i*::*KAHLES Gesellschaft m.b.H.

Unfortunately there is no suitable reticle for my applications. Or more precicely not suitable for my taste.

 

[useruser]

I think I'm set on mark8 CQBSS. I'll let you know how it goes

Did you look at the new Kahles 1-5 and 1-6 x 24 scopes? They are in the price limit. OK, thea are expensive.

But Kahles builds outstanding optics.

Lookie
K15i/K16i*::*KAHLES Gesellschaft m.b.H.

Unfortunately there is no suitable reticle for my applications. Or more precicely not suitable for my taste.

 

[Lakeray]

I hope you don't mind my opinion. Yes, I have very few posts on this forum, I am but a FNG when it comes to long range shooting , but I have had a SCR 17 and been a member on that forum since they first came out. I keep hearing about the SCAR being hard on optics (but not on the SCAR forum), but I haven't seen it. Due to the heavy price point on the SCAR it was 2 years before I could get a decent scope for it. What did I use in the mean time? My 20 year old (if not older) Bushnell Buckhorn 3-9 x 32 I got for my Ruger 10/22. Two years of biweekly shooting of couple hundred rounds every time and it never lost it's zero and would still box as decent as when I first put it on. I think a mark8 CQBSS would be a very good choice. I almost went with that myself when I was finally able to buy a scope for it.

 

[dbransco]

I think a 1-8x optic is perfect for the SCAR 17.its a great compromise between size and magnification. I run a March 1-8 and have been very happy.

 

[eodcam]

I'd look for a NF 2.5-10x24 recon

 

[useruser]

@ Lakery. Big thanks!! I'm being so picky is because this is my 1st serious optic I'm investing in. I know that guns come and go, but a good optic will stay with you forever. You just proved my theory with saying that you're still using your 20 year old BB. Thanks you very much for your input!!

 

[mikeltee]

As it's been said many times in this thread, SCARs break optics like a bull in s China shop. After you come to a conclusion, do an extensive search of the pairing of the two and make sure the Internet world ?not just the hide) recommends it. I'd also make sure that there is a good warranty set I place which will get your optic back to you sooner than later. I've heard 6 months min on the high end German optics. I've heard good and bad reports on Bushnell, which looks like a good decision on your part if you want to spend the least amount of dough on a decent optic. They do offer a 100% money back guarantee by the way. If it were me, I wouldn't run a scar, but some people just got to have one. You really can't go wrong with any scope affirmentioned here. USO 1-8 would probably be my choice but that's gonna cost the boss.