Night Vision Scenario-based what to buy next discussion

[adamjma]

So, I've absorbed a lot of the knowledge here on the forum but I could use a clear-headed appraisal of what makes the most sense for me moving forward with my next purchase. Use case is short term SHTF with an emphasis on avoiding (run, hide, fight in that order - wife an kid along for the ride). Thought process is to hunker down in daylight, move at night. Get someplace defensible each evening and stay on the move to safety or until things de-escalate. Once out of the city it's largely farmland, so large open spaces and then various wooded areas.

EDITED TO ADD: Where I am we've had blackouts lasting days and weeks (once each) in the last decade or so. We've also had a tornado touchdown very close to the metropolitan centre of town. Both situations could easily turn into medium scale unrest easily enough over time. I also live central to the city, so I'm fighting traffic no matter which way I go. The presumption should be that I get my ass moving ASAP and hope to clear any trouble before it starts. If I can't and the vehicle isn't getting me any further then I am looking to get off the lines of communication and hope to wait and trouble out. I am not expecting the zombie apocalypse, just a bit of breakdown in civil control that settles after a few days.

Rather than focusing on the specifics of actual pieces of kit I'd like to focus the discussion on classes of product so that it's a more philosophical discussion.

I presently have a middle of the road monocular with a lightweight setup (Crye Skullcap) as well as a bump helmet, and a short range aiming and illumination solution for my SBR, along with a choice of red dots at 2.26" mounting heights. So, I'm presently one-eyed at night and have the ability to aim actively and passively out to the effective range of an SBR (give or take). SBR, mid-length and SPR options are available to me. SBR or mid-length make the most sense to me, with a preference for small and light (SBR). Wife is unaided [EDIT - had "blind" in there and didn't mean that literally!] and will have to stay close as I navigate in the dark.

Here are the possible directions for me to go with some pro/con - what are your thoughts as to the best course of action, and why?

1. Get a second monocular. Allows me to be binocular when needed, also means I can share with wifey given my setup. Can either go binocular and guide wife or split up and both move less effectively. Offers a degree of redundancy. Does not significantly assist with detection at range.
2. Sell PVS-14 and get binocular NVG. Makes navigation easier for me, wife will have to stay close, does not significantly assist with detection at range.
3. Get a helmet mountable/handheld thermal. Gives me multispectral observation, should extend detection range and can be shared but utility for navigation is low. Helpful when hunkered down for observation.
4. Get a COTI type thermal. Benefits to detection but not to navigation. Sharable but quite limited compared to dedicated handheld unit.
5. Get a thermal spotter. Great for longer range detection (weather dependant) but no benefit to navigation or wife. Limited utility in close vegetation.

Given a limited budget where only one of these is feasible for the time being, which would you do, and why?

 

[pmclaine]

Meh, Unless you have some sort of organized support group with critical skills ability, and a hardened redoubt to go to, make the determination that you are already done and be determined to make it as expensive as possible for anyone that wants to bring that about.

When I was in Moscow at an event a Soviet asked me if it was true that Marines are trained they must kill ten enemy before they die and I told him "At least ten."

In the mean time try to enjoy life. Buy training and that gear that will enhance your enjoyment of the hobby.

 

[Rerun7]

Honestly, as an objective view, the scenario you’ve described is so unlikely to happen I’d rethink why you are buying your kit.

We’ve seen many examples in the last year of how localized events takes place and no one is sneaking around with nods and finding places to hold up along an egress route during the day to defend their family.

It would seem that the better plan would be to develop a fast egress plan that gets you out of the danger area quickly and efficiently.

If something bad enough happens to require what you are describing then God help us all and no one piece of kit is going to save you.

Relax on the end of the world movies

Now, if you have other reasons short of eotwawki then think about kit that doubles for your most likely scenarios but also useful for the most unlikely of events.

 

[Downtown]

My opinion. The second PVS-14, on a bridge that can easily be separated. This allows binocular vision for you, for fun and training. Also allows you and your wife to explore in the dark, star gaze together, things like that. Which is a greatly more likely scenario that fleeing bandits in an apocalypse. If you had mentioned wanting to night hunt, then something thermal would be my reccomendation.

 

[GreenMushroom]

Your info is a bit contradictory. Can your wife use a pvs14 or not? If yes then another pvs14 is the answer. This will also allow the two of you to go out together which is quite fun and the shared familiarity with the equipment will be invaluable in the unlikely event that what your describing takes place. You will also need thermal. It will not be possible to avoid people without it and will also make play time a lot more fun as being able to spot animals will help to keep your wife interested.

 

[W54/XM-388]

So, I've absorbed a lot of the knowledge here on the forum but I could use a clear-headed appraisal of what makes the most sense for me moving forward with my next purchase. Use case is short term SHTF with an emphasis on avoiding (run, hide, fight in that order - wife an kid along for the ride). Thought process is to hunker down in daylight, move at night. Get someplace defensible each evening and stay on the move to safety or until things de-escalate. Once out of the city it's largely farmland, so large open spaces and then various wooded areas.

Rather than focusing on the specifics of actual pieces of kit I'd like to focus the discussion on classes of product so that it's a more philosophical discussion.

I presently have a middle of the road monocular with a lightweight setup (Crye Skullcap) as well as a bump helmet, and a short range aiming and illumination solution for my SBR, along with a choice of red dots at 2.26" mounting heights. So, I'm presently one-eyed at night and have the ability to aim actively and passively out to the effective range of an SBR (give or take). SBR, mid-length and SPR options are available to me. SBR or mid-length make the most sense to me, with a preference for small and light (SBR). Wife is blind and will have to stay close as I navigate in the dark.

Here are the possible directions for me to go with some pro/con - what are your thoughts as to the best course of action, and why?

1. Get a second monocular. Allows me to be binocular when needed, also means I can share with wifey given my setup. Can either go binocular and guide wife or split up and both move less effectively. Offers a degree of redundancy. Does not significantly assist with detection at range.
2. Sell PVS-14 and get binocular NVG. Makes navigation easier for me, wife will have to stay close, does not significantly assist with detection at range.
3. Get a helmet mountable/handheld thermal. Gives me multispectral observation, should extend detection range and can be shared but utility for navigation is low. Helpful when hunkered down for observation.
4. Get a COTI type thermal. Benefits to detection but not to navigation. Sharable but quite limited compared to dedicated handheld unit.
5. Get a thermal spotter. Great for longer range detection (weather dependant) but no benefit to navigation or wife. Limited utility in close vegetation.

Given a limited budget where only one of these is feasible for the time being, which would you do, and why?

Here is the thing, you have I'm assuming, a decently setup house, that is relatively well provisioned and a plan to be able to survive without going to the store for a month or so. (If you don't well stop right there and get that done before you worry about anything else).

Now in this SHTF event, you want to pack up a limited amount of stuff into a vehicle and drive, probably when tons of others might be trying to do the same and going to "go to the woods / farmland?" This is fraught with a huge list of dangers and if you don't already have a place setup and ready to go to, or have good people you have arranged to stay with, life is going to get really rough really quick, that's if you even make it out of your city, and if you don't get taken out by looters along the road or pissed off country folks not interested in seeing their area overrun by city hordes.

Life in "the woods" or "on the land" is not as easy as TV makes it seem, food & sometimes water can be in short supply and difficult to get. You'll quickly eat through whatever you've managed to bring in your car.

I'd seriously suggest you just do a test run one weekend and see how that actually goes for you in the best of times.

Now as to your question. EuroOptic had a deal for about $3000 for a COTI with a handheld adapter. Assuming you have a PVS-14, that would be your best bet to upgrade your setup.

 

[GreenMushroom]

The eyepiece for the coti is worthless. By deselecting it on europtic it will save you 200$. If you can't stand not trying it I'll send you mine and you can send it back when you realize how much it sucks.

 

[W54/XM-388]

The eyepiece for the coti is worthless. By deselecting it on europtic it will save you 200$. If you can't stand not trying it I'll send you mine and you can send it back when you realize how much it sucks.

I would strongly disagree, for $200 it is an excellent value (assuming it's similar to the one I have).

Used correctly it works very well for turning the COTI into a stand alone thermal observation device (not as great for on the move).

At least with the setup I have, you can see your surroundings very well in shades of amber and black. It's not as clear for positive ID as a NV, but it will let you navigate or see things coming or get a general idea of the lay of the land.

Perhaps their Coti and eyepiece combo are different than the one I have from some years back where I paid a lot more for it.

 

[GreenMushroom]

Maybe mines broken. When I look through it without the coti attached everythings upside down.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Maybe mines broken. When I look through it without the coti attached everythings upside down.

Yep, that's not normal, I have no clue what's going on with that, maybe check with EuroOptic to see if they sent you the wrong one or if there is some different setting on that COTI unit.

The main issue with them usually is that there is like zero eye relief so you have to hold it right up against your eye to use it, which makes it not so great to try to walk with, but fine for stopping and looking around.

 

[adamjma]

Your info is a bit contradictory. Can your wife use a pvs14 or not? If yes then another pvs14 is the answer. This will also allow the two of you to go out together which is quite fun and the shared familiarity with the equipment will be invaluable in the unlikely event that what your describing takes place. You will also need thermal. It will not be possible to avoid people without it and will also make play time a lot more fun as being able to spot animals will help to keep your wife interested.

She can since I have two head mounting setups. Sorry if that was unclear.

 

[adamjma]

Honestly, as an objective view, the scenario you’ve described is so unlikely to happen I’d rethink why you are buying your kit.

We’ve seen many examples in the last year of how localized events takes place and no one is sneaking around with nods and finding places to hold up along an egress route during the day to defend their family.

It would seem that the better plan would be to develop a fast egress plan that gets you out of the danger area quickly and efficiently.

If something bad enough happens to require what you are describing then God help us all and no one piece of kit is going to save you.

Relax on the end of the world movies

Now, if you have other reasons short of eotwawki then think about kit that doubles for your most likely scenarios but also useful for the most unlikely of events.

Respectfully I'm not sure that it's not within the realm of reason. Where I am we've had blackouts lasting days and weeks (once each) in the last decade or so. We've also had a tornado touchdown very close to the metropolitan centre of town. Both situations could easily turn into medium scale unrest easily enough over time.

Not mentioned, but my first plan it to get the hell outta dodge, but in both cases above it's quite possible a wall of permanently halted traffic would stop you well before getting well clear of the area.

Regrettably from a safety standpoint we live downtown.

 

[adamjma]

Here is the thing, you have I'm assuming, a decently setup house, that is relatively well provisioned and a plan to be able to survive without going to the store for a month or so. (If you don't well stop right there and get that done before you worry about anything else).

Now in this SHTF event, you want to pack up a limited amount of stuff into a vehicle and drive, probably when tons of others might be trying to do the same and going to "go to the woods / farmland?" This is fraught with a huge list of dangers and if you don't already have a place setup and ready to go to, or have good people you have arranged to stay with, life is going to get really rough really quick, that's if you even make it out of your city, and if you don't get taken out by looters along the road or pissed off country folks not interested in seeing their area overrun by city hordes.

Life in "the woods" or "on the land" is not as easy as TV makes it seem, food & sometimes water can be in short supply and difficult to get. You'll quickly eat through whatever you've managed to bring in your car.

I'd seriously suggest you just do a test run one weekend and see how that actually goes for you in the best of times.

Now as to your question. EuroOptic had a deal for about $3000 for a COTI with a handheld adapter. Assuming you have a PVS-14, that would be your best bet to upgrade your setup.

We have reasonable provisions but are located in the centre of a metropolitan area, so once everyone around us starts running low on food and water it's not ideal to be the one place that isn't. Bugging in is not ideal because the home is indefensible. After three or four days if the water is off things will get ugly and by then getting out might be tricky.

Agreed that getting out early is key, so my provision is gear ready to load and get moving ASAP to do that. RV is family but they are 6 hours away by car. Once clear of the metropolitan area it's unlikely that danger would be as high, but you never know. If we need to depart the vehicle it's nice to have some options.

Understood about supplies - this is a 3-5 day plan. If things are still ugly after that we are hosed. I've had SERE training, so I'm well aware of what you can reasonably accomplish with what you can carry.

I'm surprised the COTI is suggested over a standalone unit - is that strictly a $$ thing, or would you prefer a COTI versus an otherwise similarly capable helmet mountable handheld?

 

[Rerun7]

There are many possible things that are not very probable. Sure, anything can happen.

All I’m suggesting is be cautious of buying gear you’ll only use in the .0001% chance situation. Think about what gear you’d use in lots of situations that will also work for the worst case.

just friendly advice from a guy who once bought a lot of crap for the .0001% that never got used. Much happier getting stuff I use to camp, hunt, etc that will also be useful in a defensive situation.

that said, after dipping into thermal i can tell you it is a huge force multiplier when combined with NV. Different capabilities that cover a wide range of uses. A helmet mounted thermal that can also be used to scan is going to be useful for a huge myriad of scenarios

 

[aslrookie]

I see two problems with your dilemma. 1) if you go with duals, your wife and kid will be tripping over, falling into, snapping every twig and blowing any sneaky egress anyway. 2) if your wife is like most, she will spend more time on arts n crafts vs actually putting in the time to be proficient enough to navigate under a PVS14.

 

[GreenMushroom]

She can since I have two head mounting setups. Sorry if that was unclear.

You stated in your original post that your wife is blind. If this is not the case then get a second pvs14. Leading a person not wearing nv is not a practical solution. My wife enjoys "night visioning" as she puts it tremendously and yours might as well. Get her set up and get her some experience so she isn't an anchor if the scenario you laid out happens. Get to the point were your both mobile and comfortable with the gear and then think about thermals etc.

Mod Armory d14 bridges will allow you to swap devices around with the push of a button. You can order the second one from them over the phone with no arms for cheaper since you will only have 2 devices. If your wife is not going to run duals you can remove the screw and socket from one side as well and in that configuration it doesn't weigh much more than a jarm.

Eta i see you have a kid as well in which case I would sell the wife keep the kid and buy a skeet.

 

[GreenMushroom]

We have reasonable provisions but are located in the centre of a metropolitan area, so once everyone around us starts running low on food and water it's not ideal to be the one place that isn't. Bugging in is not ideal because the home is indefensible. After three or four days if the water is off things will get ugly and by then getting out might be tricky.

Agreed that getting out early is key, so my provision is gear ready to load and get moving ASAP to do that. RV is family but they are 6 hours away by car. Once clear of the metropolitan area it's unlikely that danger would be as high, but you never know. If we need to depart the vehicle it's nice to have some options.

Understood about supplies - this is a 3-5 day plan. If things are still ugly after that we are hosed. I've had SERE training, so I'm well aware of what you can reasonably accomplish with what you can carry.

I'm surprised the COTI is suggested over a standalone unit - is that strictly a $$ thing, or would you prefer a COTI versus an otherwise similarly capable helmet mountable handheld?

Coti are nice but are a supplement to and not a replacement for a stand alone. If you can only get one get the stand alone. In the open farmland you describe a stand alone will be orders of magnitude more useful.

About the same price as a coti. A flir breach would be an option as well especially if you can get a good deal on a used one.

Bering Optics PHENOM 640x480-35mm 12 µm Handheld Thermal Monocular *Current lead times 2-4 weeks*

PHENOM Thermal Monocular 640 with a 2-mile detection distance in any field including hunting, patrolling, law enforcement, navigation, and rescue operations.

www.nightgoggles.com

 

[adamjma]

There are many possible things that are not very probable. Sure, anything can happen.

All I’m suggesting is be cautious of buying gear you’ll only use in the .0001% chance situation. Think about what gear you’d use in lots of situations that will also work for the worst case.

just friendly advice from a guy who once bought a lot of crap for the .0001% that never got used. Much happier getting stuff I use to camp, hunt, etc that will also be useful in a defensive situation.

that said, after dipping into thermal i can tell you it is a huge force multiplier when combined with NV. Different capabilities that cover a wide range of uses. A helmet mounted thermal that can also be used to scan is going to be useful for a huge myriad of scenarios

Appreciated. Trying to control geardo tendencies.

 

[adamjma]

I see two problems with your dilemma. 1) if you go with duals, your wife and kid will be tripping over, falling into, snapping every twig and blowing any sneaky egress anyway. 2) if your wife is like most, she will spend more time on arts n crafts vs actually putting in the time to be proficient enough to navigate under a PVS14.

Yep. That's pretty bang on.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I'm surprised the COTI is suggested over a standalone unit - is that strictly a $$ thing, or would you prefer a COTI versus an otherwise similarly capable helmet mountable handheld?

From your original post it sounded like:
A. Your wife was blind
B. Funds were very limited

A stand alone Thermal would be better, but more than likely quite a bit more expensive.
If trying to save money and there is only one of you, the COTI is a good compromise that still gives you a lot of capability.
The COTI is a nice enhancement for your PVS14 if you are walking around as it will alert you quickly to hidden living things that may be hidden.
Another option is PVS14 on your head and thermal on your rifle.

If you have the budget to easily get a really good stand alone thermal in addition to your current setup, by all means go for it.

 

[adamjma]

You stated in your original post that your wife is blind. If this is not the case then get a second pvs14. Leading a person not wearing nv is not a practical solution. My wife enjoys "night visioning" as she puts it tremendously and yours might as well. Get her set up and get her some experience so she isn't an anchor if the scenario you laid out happens. Get to the point were your both mobile and comfortable with the gear and then think about thermals etc.

Mod Armory d14 bridges will allow you to swap devices around with the push of a button. You can order the second one from them over the phone with no arms for cheaper since you will only have 2 devices. If your wife is not going to run duals you can remove the screw and socket from one side as well and in that configuration it doesn't weigh much more than a jarm.

Eta i see you have a kid as well in which case I would sell the wife keep the kid and buy a skeet.

My bad - didn't mean LITERALLY blind.

Appreciate the input. Wife thinks the world is a nicer place than I do, so I suspect she won't see the appeal of NV. But it's worth a go.

 

[adamjma]

From your original post it sounded like:
A. Your wife was blind
B. Funds were very limited

A stand alone Thermal would be better, but more than likely quite a bit more expensive.
If trying to save money and there is only one of you, the COTI is a good compromise that still gives you a lot of capability.
The COTI is a nice enhancement for your PVS14 if you are walking around as it will alert you quickly to hidden living things that may be hidden.
Another option is PVS14 on your head and thermal on your rifle.

If you have the budget to easily get a really good stand alone thermal in addition to your current setup, by all means go for it.

Yeah, I'm an idiot. Changed the post. Meant, will be unable to see at night without NV.

I do really want to try thermal, but handheld VS weapon sight has me leaning the latter.

 

[shoots100]

Get a handheld thermal monocular and another 14 for your wife, only if she'll train with it.
Your not going to be benefited with a helmet mounted thermal, unless your static, looking for life signs when hands aren't free, or when trying to get around others with NV, without being spotted using the 14 with an illuminator.
Unless your a snake, that's almost impossible.
You can't move around with thermal easily because of the lack of depth perception, unless your in an open field or moving very very slowly, focused in close.
Thermal for detection, 14 for Nav.

 

[GreenMushroom]

My bad - didn't mean LITERALLY blind.

Appreciate the input. Wife thinks the world is a nicer place than I do, so I suspect she won't see the appeal of NV. But it's worth a go.

The way I would pitch it and the way me and my wife view it is as a fun outdoor activity that might be useful in alternative situations. If your wife isn't outdoorsy it will be a harder sell. The unit above has good resolution and is capable of internal recording and picture taking plus its not military lookBush.

The key is to make it fun and not to bore her with the details. That unit will provide lots of cool looking pictures and video she can show people. My wife has also gotten quite good at taking pictures with her phone through her pvs14. Make that the focus of your outings vrs shtf training. Getting out and using the equipment will develop her skills irregardless of the reason for getting out. For my wife having thermal was a big boost to her confidence since it proved to her that there really wasn't a cougar behind every bush.

 

[Choid]

How can his funds be limited. I have like 500 of his little gizmos.

 

[GreenMushroom]

Get a handheld thermal monocular and another 14 for your wife, only if she'll train with it.
Your not going to be benefited with a helmet mounted thermal, unless your static, looking for life signs when hands aren't free, or when trying to get around others with NV, without being spotted using the 14 with an illuminator.
Unless your a snake, that's almost impossible.
You can't move around with thermal easily because of the lack of depth perception, unless your in an open field or moving very very slowly, focused in close.
Thermal for detection, 14 for Nav.

Agreed. 2 14s and that scanner above to share between the 2 of you and you'd have a capable set up.

 

[adamjma]

How can his funds be limited. I have like 500 of his little gizmos.

Who do you think I am? ‘Cause I got no gizmos to sell.

 

[Choid]

Who do you think I am? ‘Cause I got no gizmos to sell.

Oops, wrong Canadian I guess.

 

[adamjma]

Thanks all for the input. Dual 14s and a thermal scanner are on the menu! Now to determine which of my kidneys is more attractive on the open market.

 

[Choid]

Thanks all for the input. Dual 14s and a thermal scanner are on the menu! Now to determine which of my kidneys is more attractive on the open market.

Anyway, that is the best plan. If you are really worried about the above, one person with sight is going to be really slow if the other doesn't have it.

 

[adamjma]

Oops, wrong Canadian I guess.

You thinking I’m the recently departed vendor of optical gadgetry? I wish I had his money - I’d burn mine!

 

[Choid]

You thinking I’m the recently departed vendor of optical gadgetry? I wish I had his money - I’d burn mine!

No, I thought you were the purveyor of awesome reloading and target spotting helpers.

 

[Namekagon]

An SBR is great if it’s a total anarchy apocalypse dumpster-fire. But it’s not concealable, and blending in to a crowd is tough dressed in full battle rattle carrying an SBR. In more minor disturbances, blending in, or at least not drawing attention, could be important. If you don’t have a couple handguns, I’d buy those first and set at least one up with a small IR laser. You already have a lot of capability with a PVS 14.

I’ll also point out that in recent social unrest situations, things usually didn’t get hairy until after dark. Moving during the day might make more sense.

 

[W54/XM-388]

An SBR is great if it’s a total anarchy apocalypse dumpster-fire. But it’s not concealable, and blending in to a crowd is tough dressed in full battle rattle carrying an SBR. In more minor disturbances, blending in, or at least not drawing attention, could be important.

Wintertime is your friend when it comes to concealing stuff.
A nice long coat can conceal a full battle rattle outfit...

 

[NHPiper]

The thermal is key to spotting heat signatures, especially at night. But you better have a large supply of batteries because almost every thermal is going to chew threw them. Assume all the rechargeable ones aren't going to get recharged with power out unless you already have a contingency for that. That is the huge upside to I2 night vision, a AA battery in a PVS14 gets you 40 hours. Good luck getting more than 1-3 hours in the cold with a CR123 battery and almost any thermal.

 

[GreenMushroom]

Yeah, I'm an idiot. Changed the post. Meant, will be unable to see at night without NV.

I do really want to try thermal, but handheld VS weapon sight has me leaning the latter.

You need to really do your homework getting into thermal. That one above is a relatively new model. In theory it should have the resolution of the N-vision or trijicon stuff for half the price. Its not weapon or helmet mountable but to get that with that kind of resolution your looking at twice the money. Since you have the laser and passive abilities I would focus your thermal budget on resolution and detection range and not worry about weapon/helmet mount. I have a nox that cost 6k and its nice to be able to helmet/rifle mount it but honestly it spends most of its life on a neck lanyard.

 

[diggler1833]

Hello...

...As a rancher, I fully intend to share my livestock with my neighbors...especially since I couldn't take them to market or support as many head as I currently have. My calves would be my trade item.

My price in return would be in part 'hired gun' help when it comes to keeping city people away. I have a renewable meat source...I don't think it difficult that my neighbors would want to help me keep that. Just be aware that I'm not the only one with that mindset, and we have a much better "community" than most residential neighborhoods...even including the meth labs . Our only two lane highway and access has multiple bridges over water...no other way around.

It would be half Deliverance, half old couple from The Book of Eli.

Then there are all the other threats you'd have to face just to get out of the city and to the country. When I did Continuity of Operations stuff, we 'studied' the mass fleeing (there's a much better word, but I'm tired) done by the German civilian population when the allied forces broke through. Basically every commodity within an eight mile span of every highway was ransacked by hungry German citizens that broke down or ran out of gas....stores, farms, everything. I damn sure wouldn't want to jump on a crowded highway that has ~75% of the motorists under a half tank of gas and little to no food or water.

Better to develop a solid one month bug in plan...it's not only much more realistic in the long run, but also safer. Just don't advertise what you have.

Since you already have a night vision monocular, I'd go thermal weapon sight. Thermals are a lot better once the range opens up and dudes can start hiding in shadows.

 

[pmclaine]

Hello...

...As a rancher, I fully intend to share my livestock with my neighbors...especially since I couldn't take them to market or support as many head as I currently have. My calves would be my trade item.

My price in return would be in part 'hired gun' help when it comes to keeping city people away. I have a renewable meat source...I don't think it difficult that my neighbors would want to help me keep that. Just be aware that I'm not the only one with that mindset, and we have a much better "community" than most residential neighborhoods...even including the meth labs . Our only two lane highway and access has multiple bridges over water...no other way around.

It would be half Deliverance, half old couple from The Book of Eli.

Then there are all the other threats you'd have to face just to get out of the city and to the country. When I did Continuity of Operations stuff, we 'studied' the mass fleeing (there's a much better word, but I'm tired) done by the German civilian population when the allied forces broke through. Basically every commodity within an eight mile span of every highway was ransacked by hungry German citizens that broke down or ran out of gas....stores, farms, everything. I damn sure wouldn't want to jump on a crowded highway that has ~75% of the motorists under a half tank of gas and little to no food or water.

Better to develop a solid one month bug in plan...it's not only much more realistic in the long run, but also safer. Just don't advertise what you have.

Since you already have a night vision monocular, I'd go thermal weapon sight. Thermals are a lot better once the range opens up and dudes can start hiding in shadows.

You have also wisely invested in 6 shot long barrel artillery......I really like your style Old MacDonald.

 

[adamjma]

No, I thought you were the purveyor of awesome reloading and target spotting helpers.

Who's that? Sounds like someone I should get to know!!!

 

[adamjma]

Thanks all for the inputs. I hadn't intended for this to evolve into a preparation discussion but excellent points being made.

Unfortunately for me the prospect of bugging in is not terribly feasible. I live in a modern design (lots of windows) duplex in the centre of a metropolitan area. There is simply no way to conceal that we are alive and well while potentially the entire immediate metropolitan area has not food and/or water. I'd rather not have to defend a pretty indefensible location.

I was blissfully ignorant of considerations such as these when we bought the place.

Hence my plan is to try to beat the rush out the door by being ready to load and move on a moment's notice. I think that balances risk best for me. YMMV.

 

[Lowdown3]

So when someone starts to happen, most people sit on their asses and watch the TV, pull up the internet, etc. for "info." While they are doing "research" is the exact time you need to GTFO quickly.

There is always a lagtime, your only gap you can take is the very short lag time. When everyone is going "is this really it?"

Having some place to go NOW is a better plan. But I understand where your coming from and staying in the middle of a big city that's likely to go to helena handbasket is not the best option. Investigate national parks, etc. outside but not days away from your area. You could possibly just be ready to go on a spur of the moment CAMPING trip.

Also, don't know your job situation but bank up your goodwill, vacation time, etc. Then if things that are part of your trip wires (BO plan) start falling in place, it's time to start telling your employer about poor Aunt Sue that's in bad health that you may have to go and see before she dies, might be short notice also.

Many think they will just say fudge it and walk away from jobs, responsibilities, etc. that won't realistically happen. Better to plan on using some vacation time for a pre-emptive BO aka "camping trip" than burn a bridge at work. So that means also not being "that guy" that does stupid stuff like trying to convince everyone in the office to store supplies and be a "prepper." You need to be as low key as possible.

Set your trip wire/trigger point and don't waiver from it. That means you name something that will set your BO in motion. Just for example let's say "if two towns within my state start to riot at the same time" or "we use tactical nukes to defend Taiwan against a chinese attack" or WHATEVER you decide. Think through the scenario(s) you are preparing for and set a trigger that you will not waiver from.

Sadly most people -even ones that take this sort of thing seriously- will sit on their asses and watch it unfold on TV/check the net and post "what does the hive think, is it time to BO?" and other dumb shit while they should be MOVING. Once again that early time may be your ONLY time to get out easily and safely. And yes you may "go camping" for a few days at a park and then come home with the end result being TS did not HTF. So be it. You got a few days off and did some camping- and tested your plan.

Notice we haven't even started to consider gear??? Lots of planning is involved in this sort of thing.

Ideally you will move to a safe rural area away from cities and major targets if you are truly serious about this sort of thing. I can tell you not having to worry about making a last minute BO is a huge relief. Good luck and good planning!!!

 

[Killswitch Engage]

i do enjoy reading posts from folks that still go with the standard yOU waTcH tO MAnY EnD oF tHe WOrLd MOVies and that you wont need shit to do shit yada yada. the same ones that apparently been asleep under a fucking rock for the past year let alone decade. let me guess....the likely hood of the entire country running out of toilet paper is .0001% eh? the likely hood of people putting gasoline in a fucking walmart plastic bag is .0001%? the likely hood a sheet of 7/16 osb will be $50 fucking dollars is .0001% right? the list goes on and it will continue to go on. shit is not going to be like it was and it is never going to again. sit up and take a look.

buy another 14 and bridge it, buy another head mount to share it, buy a weapon mount for it. buy whatever thermal you can afford and make use of it. head mount is good but i feel any thermal should have dual purpose use as weapon sight. if youre going with a lower end unit like a hogster or such work a solution to head mount it. ive done this for plenty of folks with various small thermals that werent designed for head use.

my .02

 

[Rerun7]

i do enjoy reading posts from folks that still go with the standard yOU waTcH tO MAnY EnD oF tHe WOrLd MOVies and that you wont need shit to do shit yada yada. the same ones that apparently been asleep under a fucking rock for the past year let alone decade. let me guess....the likely hood of the entire country running out of toilet paper is .0001% eh? the likely hood of people putting gasoline in a fucking walmart plastic bag is .0001%? the likely hood a sheet of 7/16 osb will be $50 fucking dollars is .0001% right? the list goes on and it will continue to go on. shit is not going to be like it was and it is never going to again. sit up and take a look.

buy another 14 and bridge it, buy another head mount to share it, buy a weapon mount for it. buy whatever thermal you can afford and make use of it. head mount is good but i feel any thermal should have dual purpose use as weapon sight. if youre going with a lower end unit like a hogster or such work a solution to head mount it. ive done this for plenty of folks with various small thermals that werent designed for head use.

my .02

I think everyone should be prepared for worst case but planning and buying gear you’ll ONLY use for worst case just isn’t the smartest IMO.

Possible and probable are two different things. It’s both possible and probable that there will be shortages of items, people doing stupid stuff like gas in bags and riots/looting across the country, especially in metro areas.

Possible but not very probable will be an Escape from LA a scenario where you have to get your family out of the city by kicking in doors to find defensible positions during the day and then using your high tech NV kit and sbr to evade roving bands of lunatics and quietly dispatching those that you can’t avoid as your wife and child stay on your six... Great movie but history will tell you it doesn’t work like that.

Having a grey man plan and executing it quickly is going to provide you with a much higher chance of success.

But like I said, if you want to buy kit because you enjoy it and it’s not going to just sit in a box somewhere then awesome!

 

[WhereNow&How]

i do enjoy reading posts from folks that still go with the standard yOU waTcH tO MAnY EnD oF tHe WOrLd MOVies and that you wont need shit to do shit yada yada. the same ones that apparently been asleep under a fucking rock for the past year let alone decade. let me guess....the likely hood of the entire country running out of toilet paper is .0001% eh? the likely hood of people putting gasoline in a fucking walmart plastic bag is .0001%? the likely hood a sheet of 7/16 osb will be $50 fucking dollars is .0001% right? the list goes on and it will continue to go on. shit is not going to be like it was and it is never going to again. sit up and take a look.

buy another 14 and bridge it, buy another head mount to share it, buy a weapon mount for it. buy whatever thermal you can afford and make use of it. head mount is good but i feel any thermal should have dual purpose use as weapon sight. if youre going with a lower end unit like a hogster or such work a solution to head mount it. ive done this for plenty of folks with various small thermals that werent designed for head use.

my .02

Could not have said it better myself. A person basically has to be an idiot (especially these days) not to see where things are headed.

 

[GreenMushroom]

I live in one of those areas that people think they are going to flee to in these scenarios. The idea that all these people are going to ride an event out hiding in the woods is ridiculous. There isn't enough resources up here to support the people that already live here if services are interrupted not to mention thousands of people from the city.

 

[GreenMushroom]

So when someone starts to happen, most people sit on their asses and watch the TV, pull up the internet, etc. for "info." While they are doing "research" is the exact time you need to GTFO quickly.

There is always a lagtime, your only gap you can take is the very short lag time. When everyone is going "is this really it?"

Having some place to go NOW is a better plan. But I understand where your coming from and staying in the middle of a big city that's likely to go to helena handbasket is not the best option. Investigate national parks, etc. outside but not days away from your area. You could possibly just be ready to go on a spur of the moment CAMPING trip.

Also, don't know your job situation but bank up your goodwill, vacation time, etc. Then if things that are part of your trip wires (BO plan) start falling in place, it's time to start telling your employer about poor Aunt Sue that's in bad health that you may have to go and see before she dies, might be short notice also.

Many think they will just say fudge it and walk away from jobs, responsibilities, etc. that won't realistically happen. Better to plan on using some vacation time for a pre-emptive BO aka "camping trip" than burn a bridge at work. So that means also not being "that guy" that does stupid stuff like trying to convince everyone in the office to store supplies and be a "prepper." You need to be as low key as possible.

Set your trip wire/trigger point and don't waiver from it. That means you name something that will set your BO in motion. Just for example let's say "if two towns within my state start to riot at the same time" or "we use tactical nukes to defend Taiwan against a chinese attack" or WHATEVER you decide. Think through the scenario(s) you are preparing for and set a trigger that you will not waiver from.

Sadly most people -even ones that take this sort of thing seriously- will sit on their asses and watch it unfold on TV/check the net and post "what does the hive think, is it time to BO?" and other dumb shit while they should be MOVING. Once again that early time may be your ONLY time to get out easily and safely. And yes you may "go camping" for a few days at a park and then come home with the end result being TS did not HTF. So be it. You got a few days off and did some camping- and tested your plan.

Notice we haven't even started to consider gear??? Lots of planning is involved in this sort of thing.

Ideally you will move to a safe rural area away from cities and major targets if you are truly serious about this sort of thing. I can tell you not having to worry about making a last minute BO is a huge relief. Good luck and good planning!!!

Can you comment on the phenom scanner I linked above? Did a little research on it as an alternative to a nox35 before rejecting the idea but it seems like a lot of bang for the buck. Also do you have a ruff lead time on the nox35? We are waiting for a couple things to shake down but will most likely be ordering in 2-3 weeks. Are we right in thinking its basically just an 18 with a bigger objective?

 

[Killswitch Engage]

I think everyone should be prepared for worst case but planning and buying gear you’ll ONLY use for worst case just isn’t the smartest IMO.

Possible and probable are two different things. It’s both possible and probable that there will be shortages of items, people doing stupid stuff like gas in bags and riots/looting across the country, especially in metro areas.

Possible but not very probable will be an Escape from LA a scenario where you have to get your family out of the city by kicking in doors to find defensible positions during the day and then using your high tech NV kit and sbr to evade roving bands of lunatics and quietly dispatching those that you can’t avoid as your wife and child stay on your six... Great movie but history will tell you it doesn’t work like that.

Having a grey man plan and executing it quickly is going to provide you with a much higher chance of success.

But like I said, if you want to buy kit because you enjoy it and it’s not going to just sit in a box somewhere then awesome!

fire extinguishers and home owners insurance are for possibility not probability yet they seem like a must have...

 

[WhereNow&How]

So when someone starts to happen, most people sit on their asses and watch the TV, pull up the internet, etc. for "info." While they are doing "research" is the exact time you need to GTFO quickly.

There is always a lagtime, your only gap you can take is the very short lag time. When everyone is going "is this really it?"

Having some place to go NOW is a better plan. But I understand where your coming from and staying in the middle of a big city that's likely to go to helena handbasket is not the best option. Investigate national parks, etc. outside but not days away from your area. You could possibly just be ready to go on a spur of the moment CAMPING trip.

Also, don't know your job situation but bank up your goodwill, vacation time, etc. Then if things that are part of your trip wires (BO plan) start falling in place, it's time to start telling your employer about poor Aunt Sue that's in bad health that you may have to go and see before she dies, might be short notice also.

Many think they will just say fudge it and walk away from jobs, responsibilities, etc. that won't realistically happen. Better to plan on using some vacation time for a pre-emptive BO aka "camping trip" than burn a bridge at work. So that means also not being "that guy" that does stupid stuff like trying to convince everyone in the office to store supplies and be a "prepper." You need to be as low key as possible.

Set your trip wire/trigger point and don't waiver from it. That means you name something that will set your BO in motion. Just for example let's say "if two towns within my state start to riot at the same time" or "we use tactical nukes to defend Taiwan against a chinese attack" or WHATEVER you decide. Think through the scenario(s) you are preparing for and set a trigger that you will not waiver from.

Sadly most people -even ones that take this sort of thing seriously- will sit on their asses and watch it unfold on TV/check the net and post "what does the hive think, is it time to BO?" and other dumb shit while they should be MOVING. Once again that early time may be your ONLY time to get out easily and safely. And yes you may "go camping" for a few days at a park and then come home with the end result being TS did not HTF. So be it. You got a few days off and did some camping- and tested your plan.

Notice we haven't even started to consider gear??? Lots of planning is involved in this sort of thing.

Ideally you will move to a safe rural area away from cities and major targets if you are truly serious about this sort of thing. I can tell you not having to worry about making a last minute BO is a huge relief. Good luck and good planning!!!

Excellent all round advice here.

 

[Glassaholic]

OP - did you just go see A Quiet Place II this weekend

I'd rather face blind aliens waiting to cut me in half if I cough rather than the morons running this country right now! 2020 (and going) should be a huge wake up call to those of us with half a brain, KSE makes some excellent points as well as others above.

Once they start affecting food and water supply... well we ain't seen nothing yet is all I'm saying. Know your history, look at what early Nazi Germany was like, Russia and the Bolshevik revolution - we are ignorant to believe "that can't happen here", guess what, it is happening here. Do we have a chance to cut the head off the snake, I think we still do but it isn't going to be pretty. These mini dictators got a taste of power and there is no way they are going to give it up easily.

OP - I'm having @SkyScrapin and @wigwamitus set me up with some gear, not necessarily for the scenario you propose but for hunting and scanning, etc. but like others mentioned above, we have gear that serves multiple roles - ain't nothin' wrong with that!

 

[WhereNow&How]

I live in one of those areas that people think they are going to flee to in these scenarios. The idea that all these people are going to ride an event out hiding in the woods is ridiculous. There isn't enough resources up here to support the people that already live here if services are interrupted not to mention thousands of people from the city.

Well if your will to survive is strong enough and the local food sources are depleted, welcome the the influx of refugees in as a last ditch supply of food. It's happened many times before and will happen again during desperate times.

During the Holodomor it is well documented that mothers would kill one of their children to feed the other children and themselves.

Never underestimate a starving animal of any kind. A starving human goes into a completely different state of thinking and rationalizing things. Completely unimaginable to a person whom has never been near death starvation.

Holodomor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Cannibalism
Evidence of widespread cannibalism was documented during the Holodomor:[47][48]

Survival was a moral as well as a physical struggle. A woman doctor wrote to a friend in June 1933 that she had not yet become a cannibal, but was "not sure that I shall not be one by the time my letter reaches you." The good people died first. Those who refused to steal or to prostitute themselves died. Those who gave food to others died. Those who refused to eat corpses died. Those who refused to kill their fellow man died. Parents who resisted cannibalism died before their children did.[49]